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New Plane Proposal – Me 262 HG II


Nimitz_Zhang
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Should Me 262 HG II be in the game?  

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  1. 1. Should Me 262 HG II be in the game?

    • Yes
      210
    • No
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New Plane Proposal – Me 262 HG II

 

Disclaimer: it can be argued that this plane is not paper and certainly is much more solid than you think.

image.thumb.png.e8be29d5316c562c3f6acab8

 

Well here we are, Me 262 HG II, a plane that the community had been hyped about and promised by Gaijin on the release tree years ago. But then it went dead, all traces of it disappeared from Gaijin websites and people just forgot about it.

 

I am here to dust off this neglected beauty once more and give her another chance.

In this post, I will go over:

·      History of HGII (why it is not paper)

·      Difference from production Me262

·      Why Gaijin can model it accurately

·      Why it is needed

 

Since my research were overshadowed by the vast amount of digging done by MagzTV, here is a link to his Me262 HGII video: https://youtu.be/TT8XrXnPux8

He explained the development, performance estimates and implementation of this plane in detail, so a lot of what I write on this post will be summaries of small segments of his video. All references will be found in his video description – books with price tags I won’t dare to look at. (I’m just a WT player, give me a break)

 

 

 

History & Difference from Me 262

 

The HG variants were intended to rectify the design flaws of the Me262.

 

Me 262 was an incredibly advanced jet fighter for its time, but it was far from perfect from a designer’s point of view. Since the original Me 262 design planned to have engines embedded in the wings, the pilot was seated high in the airframe to protect him from the engines and a wide fuselage was chosen to allow the placement of such engines. Due to uncertainty in engine selection, the decision was made to mount the engines under the wings in nacelles. Thus, the tall cockpit and wide fuselage lost their original design purpose and resulted in excessive and unnecessary drag.

Furthermore, the Me 262 airframe, while smooth looking from afar, was rough and caused excessive drag during flight.

 

The first variant, HG I, or Me 262 V9 prototype, had a low mounted cockpit, also known as “Racing Cabin”, extended wing along the inner 1/3 of the wings with 35-degree wing sweep, and a fuselage sanded smooth. HG I underwent extensive wind-tunnel testing and flew multiple times. While acceleration improved compared to production Me 262, the plane still encountered control stiffening at Mach 0.84.

 

(The HG I. Don’t worry, the Germans were translated in the next image.)

hg-1o0clz.thumb.jpg.2a1b90b473a2d400ec83

 

 

Here is where HG II comes into play - in addition to the Racing Cabin and smoothed skin, HG II incorporated a complete swept wing with a wing sweep of 35-degrees, the same wing sweep as the MiG-15bis and the F-86 Sabre that would come much later. The surface area of the fuselage was reduced by lowering the curvature of the body and a butterfly tail, or V-tail, was also considered.

 

image.thumb.png.71ec90638b9644370dc35bfb

 

While the HG II is a logical upgrade from Me 262, HG III is radically redesigned, with a 45-degree wing sweep, engine mounted close to the centerline, wing/fuselage blending… etc. It was virtually a new aircraft, embodying the latest Aerodynamic research and its construction started just before the war ended (as beautiful as she is, HG III will be too much of a leap for WT to accept).

 

(Here is image translation from the previous HG I image)

98158493_ScreenShot2020-11-16at11_56_13A

 

According to the image, the conversion for HG II took months, and by the end of 1944/start of 1945, all parts were ready in Lechfeld for final assembly. How far did the assembly progress, we don’t know, but I speculate that it went pretty far and may even be near complete since a test flight was already arranged.

But before the test flight, the prototype was damaged “by another radiator” (???). Other sources say it was a runway accident (further proves that it was near completion, since the plane was near the runway, not in its hangar).

 

So as we can see, HG II is far from a paper plane. It underwent extensive wind-tunnel testing, had completed construction of parts, and was in an advanced stage of final assembly.

 

In comparison, the Bf 109 Z was completed but never took to the air, being damaged by Allied bombing.

It was quite recently added to the game in Update 1.79 “Project X”, 12 June 2018, as a PREMIUM, meaning it is not even added for an important purpose, such as for filling a gap in the tech-tree.

image.thumb.png.f12211a1d95a262da5771e50

 

Compared to this prototype that never flew, I don’t think adding Me 262 HG II is much of a stretch.

 

 

 

Performance & Why Gaijin can model it accurately

 

The HG II is far from obscure, it had plenty of wind tunnel test data and performance estimates. Piecing them together, MagzTV did the conversion, and it came out roughly like this:

· Speed: Me 262 HG II had a projected critical Mach number of 0.93 at 6000 m, which comes out at 1058.34 km/h or 657.62 mi/h at 6000m or around 20,000 ft.

·      Rate of climb: was projected to be around 25 m/s or 4900 ft/m

·      Flat turn speed: 28 – 30 s, estimated to be the same as Me 262 A-1 due to similar wing-loading and stall speed

·      Roll rate: improved compared to production Me262 due to engines being closer to the center of gravity and reduced lateral drag from the vertical stabilizer

·      Combat turning ability: lower than production Me 262 due to swept wing and V-tail, which introduces slight yaw to pitch movement and slight pitch to yaw movement.

 

MagzTV commented that HG II was roughly comparable to F9F Cougar in max speed and maneuverability with a much lower climb rate.

 

(Image of F9F Cougar, and updated version of F9F Panther, which had straight wings)

image.thumb.png.46dd09582c6b0afe36579d9d

 

Gaijin can either pick off from historical performance estimates like MagzTV did, or they can build the Me 262 HG II from the ground up. Believe it or not, there are plenty of data for that and it is not hard.

 

The model for HG II can start off from Me 262, since the airframes are extremely similar, and factor in the changes done to it. Plenty of data exists for the effect of performance caused by the Racing Cabin and polished skin – HG I flew with these changes after all. There was plenty of German high-speed research focused on 35-degree wing sweep, which were used by the Allies in designing their own swept-wing fighters. The effects of V-tail were tested on Bf 109 and well-known to aviators today…

 

(Bf 109 with V-tail)

image.thumb.png.80b465cff151679912822c84

 

The HG II simply was built upon a solid foundation, Me 262, the data for which were readily available and already modeled in game.

 

 

 

Why is HG II needed in WT?

 

Firstly, Germany needs more conventional jet fighters for Rank V.

 

What do I mean?

 

Well here is the German tech-tree for Rank V planes

2015357095_ScreenShot2020-11-16at9_38_01

 

One glaring problem is the lack of normal 7.3-8.3 fighters.

 

Let’s look at the only 7.3 jet fighter of the tree, Ho 229. It turns like a UFO, a Zero of jet age, and yet its horrendous roll rate and non-existent yaw made it hard to get its guns on target. The guns, a pair of Mk103 30mm cannon, had a low rate of fire that was unlike other guns that armed jet fighters. The Ho 229 is simply a very strange plane with extreme strengths and weaknesses. Flying it requires skills that is often not transferable to flying other jets down the line.

Or the 8.0 Rocket planes, Me 262 c-2b. It is also a plane of extremes – with boosters off, it is a worse version of 7.0 Me 262, with the 3-min boosters on, it is a 9.0 jet in all but high speed maneuverability. The rocket Me 262 c-2b felt so strange that it is not out of character for it to be one of the premium planes if there had been a normal jet to fill in the 8.0 gap.

This is not a conventional jet fighter and definitely does not have the same play style as higher BR planes down the line.

 

The lack of normal fighter jets can prevent many German players from developing the skill of flying normal jets when they get to higher BR, like the MiG-15bis and F-86 Sabre.

 

 

Secondly, having obscure completed prototypes instead of prominent almost complete planes (like HG II) does not represent the German tech-tree in a historically accurate manner.

 

In fact, the only way to historically replicate what WW2 German tech-tree will look like after the regular Me262 and He162, is to add paper planes that are near completion. Swept-wing and high speed research were the main focus of WW2 German aviation, while Ho 229 and rocket boosters were side projects that were never given the full attention by the Air Ministry. The Horton brothers, for example, literally had to build Ho229 using scrap from other planes and secure funding through loopholes.

 

German tech-tree should have been uniquely defined by advanced jet designs with swept wings before the Allies ever had it (all Allied swept wing designs were based on German research). Yet because many projects were cut short: Me P.1101 (prototype 80% complete), HG ii (complete, just finishing assembly), German players only get 7.3-8.0 rocket planes and high tier post-war clones from other nations. While German swept wings should not face F-80 for obvious balancing reasons, at least Germany should have indigenous WW2 swept wings to represent the historical nature of its tech-tree.

 

(Me P.1101)

image.thumb.png.dc2df4d2c117b02296708d27

 

 

On a personal note irrelevant of this post, it is a bit sad to see so many iconic engineering feats preserved and brought back to life by War Thunder, while so much German research and engineering work during WW2 were forgotten because they were cut short on the brink of test flight.

 

Ending this post, I just wish that at least the HG II, a very much solid plane that existed in flesh and blood, can be salvaged by WT devs and bring a new experience to Axis and Allied players alike in game.

 

References:

Alfred Price. The German Jets in Combat. 

World War II Fighting Jets. 

John Foreman and S.E. Harvey. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary.

Alan J. The Strategic Bombing of Germany, 1940–1945.

Messerschmitt Me 262: The Production Log 1941–1945.

The Last Year of the Luftwaffe: May 1944 to May 1945.

 

 

Edited by Nimitz_Zhang
Addition of images that were not saved on the initial post.
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  • Suggestion Moderator

Hi and thank you for your suggestion however if you could please provide at least two sources in order to meet the guidelines if not this post shall be closed in 48 hours.  :salute:

Edited by TerikG2014
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9 minutes ago, TerikG2014 said:

Hi and thank you for your suggestion however if you could please provide at least two sources in order to meet the guidelines if not this post shall be closed in 48 hours. :salute:

References had been added, can you please take a look if they are ok?

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8 minutes ago, Nimitz_Zhang said:

References had been added, can you please take a look if they are ok?

Yep that's good. Open for discussion :salute:

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  • Technical Moderator

Absolutely yes, I'd love to see the HG II being introduced, even if the V-tail is probably not going to be added, since the built prototype had a standard Me 262 tail! Either way, +1 from me! :yes_yes_yes:

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Very hot plane indeed even without the V tail, This plane really deserves to be in the game. (Hopefully with the V tail)

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7 hours ago, Nimitz_Zhang said:

Well here we are, Me 262 HG II, a plane that the community had been hyped about and promised by Gaijin on the release tree years ago.

 

And here we can see why Gaijin no longer gives long term plans.

 

As for the plane, your own post can't decide on V-tail or not. Obviously you don't have enough info to get it into the game.

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1 hour ago, Draco_Argentum said:

 

And here we can see why Gaijin no longer gives long term plans.

 

As for the plane, your own post can't decide on V-tail or not. Obviously you don't have enough info to get it into the game.

The plane can be correct with either V-tail or T-tail. The decision is up to Gaijin, simply different configurations for the plane.

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Solid +1, I've wanted this and the p1101 in the game for a long time.

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Absolutely yes. Still waiting for a new german jet.

+1

Edited by police2689
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The only issue with the HG II is that we don't know if it flew successfully, just that it had some ground tests before getting bombed.  The HG I flew, however.

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13 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

The only issue with the HG II is that we don't know if it flew successfully, just that it had some ground tests before getting bombed.  The HG I flew, however.

I understand that - it never got to fly.

But the shape of HG II is not too radical (basic me262 or HG I with 35 degree swept wing - a wing that we know worked on Korean jets). Definitely not as radical as Ho 229 - we are definitely not sure how stable a flying wing without fly-by-wire can be and if it can pull those tight maneuvers safely.

 

Another example is  Bf 109 Z, a prototype recently added that never flew, but was based on a known airframe - 2 Bf 109 F together.

 

I think that by this point - Gaijin is balancing between its standard of flight tested prototype, need to fill hole in tree, and player need. HG II or some other jet is definitely needed to fill the 8.0-8.3 German tree hole.

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3 hours ago, Nimitz_Zhang said:

I understand that - it never got to fly.

But the shape of HG II is not too radical (basic me262 or HG I with 35 degree swept wing - a wing that we know worked on Korean jets). Definitely not as radical as Ho 229 - we are definitely not sure how stable a flying wing without fly-by-wire can be and if it can pull those tight maneuvers safely.

 

Another example is  Bf 109 Z, a prototype recently added that never flew, but was based on a known airframe - 2 Bf 109 F together.

 

I think that by this point - Gaijin is balancing between its standard of flight tested prototype, need to fill hole in tree, and player need. HG II or some other jet is definitely needed to fill the 8.0-8.3 German tree hole.

 

The Ho 229 flew well enough (or at least the V-2 prototype did, I don't think the V-3 flew), though it did need a skilled pilot.  The issues with flying wings tended to happen more with larger aircraft like the Northrop XB-35 and YB-49.  The HG I has flight data at the very least, although I will say that the HG II does at least meet Gaijin's minimum requirement of having made it to the prototype stage.

 

The in-game Bf 109Z is a fictional aircraft made from Bf 109G-6 airframes, the actual one used Bf 109F-4s (though it should be noted that the whole idea was that a few Bf 109 airframes would be taken off the production line to be made into Bf 109Zs rather than making them from scratch, the point being to simplify logistics and cut production costs).  It also uses an armament configuration that was never planned either (supposedly the Bf 109Z was to be made in two configurations, those being a heavy fighter with five cannons and a fighter-bomber with two cannons and racks for up to two tons of bombs).

 

As for filling the 8.0-8.3 gap for the Germans, I suppose this is one option.  Another would be the F-84F Thunderstreak, which was one of the first jets operated by the post-war Luftwaffe.

Edited by Z3r0_
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Me too,  I would really like to see the Me 262 HG II vtail in the German tech tree. 

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+1

I would love to see this plane in game. It certainly does have a place in the game, and would certainly do a good job at filling the 8.0 - 8.3 gap.

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On 25/11/2020 at 08:49, JhonFNS_DOOM said:

Me 262 HG III  Screenshot_20200609_172408.jpg.96c5955d6 IMG_20200609_171955.thumb.jpg.cf8a7acb6d

 

That one only ever existed as a wind tunnel model, which means it's disqualified per Gaijin's revised rules (to be considered for addition, future aircraft suggestions have to have at least made it to the construction of the prototype.

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I say no. It is not enough if there is no solid flight data for the plane to be realistically modeled into the game. Performance estimations should never be taken as reliable as flight test data, as they are often wrong due to problems or shortcomings that engineers did not foresee in the design. And I certainly do not trust Gaijin to interpolate performance figures from estimations and completely different test bed aircraft.

 

On 19/11/2020 at 09:45, Z3r0_ said:

As for filling the 8.0-8.3 gap for the Germans, I suppose this is one option.  Another would be the F-84F Thunderstreak, which was one of the first jets operated by the post-war Luftwaffe.

This is probably one of Germany's only realistic options for additions to mid-tier jets. The Thunderstreak was the first aircraft operated by the Luftwaffe after WWII iirc, and would make a nice fighter-bomber at 8.7. Considering Gaijin is also adding Argentinian vehicles to Germany's ground tree, the Pulqui II also should be on the table, as it was designed by Kurt Tank, and is probably the closest flying relative to his earlier Ta 183 design.

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I would love to see this, it feels like the right thing to add alongside the P1101 and the Flitzer as mid-tier jets

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