Rework for Sub-Trees

[SonOfLaiti 146]

South Africa was recently added as the first Sub-Tech Tree into the game. Currently it resides as a line in the 5th line of Great Britain. As much as I was excited to see the addition of sub-trees into the game, I was concerned looking to the future of adding more content to them. I feel as the more vehicles are added, the tree would become cluttered and unorganized. This is one post of many that I will be making giving my organization skills a crack at making these trees future-proof. 

 

This idea is based on a forum post I saw long ago. Unfortunately I couldn't find it, but it was an idea to add Thailand as another tab within Japan. Therefore I will be using it as an example. A suggestion for research progression is to make it so that vehicles from both nations can be in the same lineup, played in the same lineup, but no matter which vehicle you play the research still goes to whatever vehicle you were researching, no matter if it was in Thailand or Japan. This would also allow the vehicles of say Argentina out of the German tree and into the Argentinian sub-tree without any research consequence to the player (any talisman etc. would still be just as applicable.) Another thing that could be done is the unlocked ranks in the Japanese tree corresponds to being able to unlock them in the Thai tree, that way we can avoid players rushing to top tier through one of the less-flushed out sub trees. I made a quick visual to show what the tab could look like. First you would click over to the sub nation, then you would pick the vehicle type and pull up the new tree.

 

This could be done with many of the nations in the game. Now that you get the idea, let me show you new sub nations that could come into the game;

 

USA

Spoiler

Republic of Korea

Spoiler

Army

Spoiler

Helicopters

Spoiler

Aviation

Spoiler

Bluewater Fleet

Spoiler

 

Coastal Fleet

Spoiler

 

 

Brazil

Turkey

Israel

Germany

Spoiler

 

USSR

Spoiler

 

Great  Britain

Spoiler

 

Japan

Spoiler

Thailand

Spoiler

Army

Spoiler

Helicopters

Spoiler

Aviation

Spoiler

Bluewater Fleet

Coastal Fleet

Malaysia

Indonesia

China

Spoiler

 

Italy

Spoiler

 

France

Spoiler

 

Sweden

Spoiler

 

 

Having these sub trees would allow for each of the 9 nations in game to act as a bit of a faction hub, like so;

There has been a lot of debate as to which nations belong with which hosts, and for this we have taken much of the feedback into consideration. For now, I will put all of the reasonings for each nation's current positions down below:

Spoiler

Israel: There are already Israeli vehicles in USA

ROK: Majority similar equipment

Brazil: Majority similar equipment

Turkey: Majority similar equipment

Mexico: Majority similar equipment

Slovakia: There are already Slovakian vehicles in Germany

Argentina: There are already Argentinian vehicles in Germany

Spain: Majority similar equipment

Syria: There are already Syrian vehicles in USSR
Egypt: There are already Egyptian vehicles in USSR

Poland: Majority similar equipment / Community feedback

Ukraine: Majority similar equipment

Iran: Majority similar equipment
Australia: Commonwealth member
Canada: Commonwealth member
South Africa: Commonwealth member
India: Commonwealth member

Ireland: (Former) Commonwealth member

Thailand: ASEAN+3 member
Indonesia: ASEAN+3 member
Malaysia: ASEAN+3 member
DPRK: There are already DPRK vehicles in China

Pakistan: Majority similar equipment

Vietnam: Majority similar equipment

Hungary: Minor Axis member / There are already Hungarian vehicles in Italy

Romania: Minor Axis member / There are already Romanian vehicles in Italy
Bulgaria: Minor Axis member

(The French Coalition in general was seen as the opposite of Italy for this project. As Italy is a hub for Minor Axis nations, France was used as the hub for Minor Allied Nations)

The Netherlands: Minor Allies member
Belgium: Minor Allies member
Greece: Minor Allies member / Majority similar equipment

Yugoslavia: Minor Allies member

Switzerland: As we already have an Axis-leaning neutral nation (Sweden), we thought it best to add Switzerland as an Allied-leaning nation for balance. This was done because of community feedback.

Norway: Nordic Defense Cooperation member

Denmark: Norway: Nordic Defense Cooperation member

Finland: Norway: Nordic Defense Cooperation member / There are already Finnish vehicles in Sweden

Keep in mind "Unavailable" does not mean they have a lack of information or vehicles, it simply means they have too few vehicles to consider (or none at all!) to be placed as a secondary nation, and would be better off added as a few premiums. This suggested fix is simply visual and for maybe one of those awesome QOL updates we keep seeing. Hope I was able to convey my idea in a good way, look forward to seeing what the community thinks. I'll be updating this post quite frequently as I work on posts for more sub trees, cya

Edited June 11, 2021 by SonOfLaiti
Added explanations for each nation

[GandhiKhan 187]

Open for discussion! 

[DaBlitz_633 48]

To be honest I wouldn't have minded the current format if some of the South African vehichles werent embedded within the British lines. Would you let, let's say, Thai and Japanese tanks be in the same lineup together? Or would they be seperated like different nations?

[SonOfLaiti 146]

7 minutes ago, DaBlitz_633 said:

To be honest I wouldn't have minded the current format if some of the South African vehichles werent embedded within the British lines. Would you let, let's say, Thai and Japanese tanks be in the same lineup together? Or would they be seperated like different nations?

The Thai and Japanese was just the example given for how to organize these sub nations, but yes in the description I mention "A suggestion for research progression is to make it so that vehicles from both nations can be in the same lineup"

[TheSauceGuy 3]

I thought this was going to be how they did it when I heard about the sub tree. I think this is better for sure, but what would you suggest be done for vehicles like the ADATS, that aren't British and weren't used by them? Should they move it to Canadian sub tree?

[SonOfLaiti 146]

4 minutes ago, TheSauceGuy said:

I thought this was going to be how they did it when I heard about the sub tree. I think this is better for sure, but what would you suggest be done for vehicles like the ADATS, that aren't British and weren't used by them? Should they move it to Canadian sub tree?

I would say so.

[OsO73 491]

+1 !!!

[OberstMull 2]

Great idea, but I would put Yugoslavia to the Soviet tree. I saw you comment on live.WT, but I think Yugoslavia fits better to its eastern communist colleague than to the western minor Allies (Poland was supported by Great Britain after all, so that's fine).

[Flak_Dancer 9,733]

+1

[Sir Rebral Palsy 2,423]

+1

 

I'm all for it but I'm worried for some of these might actually might provoke too much political and potentially serious harmful backlash in this game based on real world or life events.

(we already have it with Taiwan not being fully represented and having censored flags with their vehicle bots, statcards etc...)

 

Ex: Ukraine under the Russian tech tree, China and India now facing each other (border clashes hello?), Thailand and Malaysia in the Japanese tree (Still has risky 'offensive' rising sun WW2 flag in-game to some Asian countries). 

 

It can and will inevitably open the floodgates for more trolling, teamkilling, toxicity, harassing and dividing of the WT community and its players despite War Thunder being more diverse with nation representation.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by VehicIe

[Zircon_2_KCCO 1]

1 hour ago, VehicIe said:

+1

 

I'm all for it but I'm worried for some of these might actually might provoke too much political and potentially serious harmful backlash in this game based on real world or life events.

(we already have it with Taiwan not being fully represented and having censored flags with their vehicle bots, statcards etc...)

 

Ex: Ukraine under the Russian tech tree, China and India now facing each other (border clashes hello?), Thailand and Malaysia in the Japanese tree (Still has risky 'offensive' rising sun WW2 flag in-game to some Asian countries). 

 

It can and will inevitably open the floodgates for more trolling, teamkilling, toxicity, harassing and dividing of the WT community and its players despite more diversity with nation representation.

 

 

I don't necessarily think it would cause more toxicity, as I recently played the CM11 (with ROC decals on it) and actually expected some harassment from my mainland chinese teammates but I got non, I got more harassment from my russian teammates in my Leo2A6 for playing it

[AspandaIV 376]

While i agree with some of the main nation TTT-nations subtree pairing (Finland in the Swedish TT, Benelux in the French TT, Pakistan in the Chinese TT, Israel in the US TT and Canada & ANZAC in the British TT) and with some nations even though i don't personally agree i can understand the thought process behind it and vice versa (an example of this are the NATO Scandinavian countries, even though i don't personally think that they should be in the Swedish TT, i'm not too upset if it ends up being in the Swedish TT while i agree with Japan receiving Thailand and even the Philippines I can sort of understand if they become subtrees of China and the US respectively instead) and there are some that I just flat out disagree with, Yugoslavia shouldn't be a subtree at all simply because they have so many vehicles of their own 3 out of the 4 branches (Air, Tanks and Helicopter) that they can easily have their own cohesive TT and I have similar opinion with Poland. Argentina, Brazil and Switzerland though having comprehensive amount of vehicles in 1 or 2 branches (Argentina for the Air force and Navy, Brazil for Tanks and Navy and Switzerland) it would make more sense to combine them into a single TT into being part of subtrees (Argentina-Uruguay with Brazil and Switzerland with Spain).

Even though it would be preferable that South Korea be in either a US or a independent Republican Chinese/Taiwanese TT and North Korea in the Chinese TT due to how Gaijin currently structures TT's it will more likely to add Both Koreas into the Chinese TT. Finally there are a couple of more subtrees that can be added that you missed, you can figure those ones out

This is generally how i would structure it

US - Israel, Saudi-Arabia
USSR - Vietnam (Vietnam has rather poor relations with China even fought a war against the Chinese, they even have better relationship with the US and even Japan then they do with China), Cuba, Egypt & Syria (UAR)
Germany - Hungary, Greece/Cyprus
Britain - ANZAC, Canada, South Africa/Rhodesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Jordan
Italy - Turkey, UAE, Jordan (if not in British TT)
France - Benelux, Denmark and Norway (if not in Swedish TT)
Sweden - Finland, Austria, Switzerland (if not merged with Spain)
Japan - Thailand, Philippines
China - Iran, Both Koreas, Pakistan
Yugoslavia/Yugo-Romania (if independent) - Bulgaria, Ukraine, India, Indonesia (India and Indonesia are better fits for Yugoslavia then Britain and Japan respectively mainly due to geo-political reasons)
Poland (if independent) - Czechslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania
Argentina-Uruguay/Rio de la Plata & Brazil (if independent) - Bolivia, Peru
Spain/Spano-Swiss (if independent) - Portugal, Chile, Egypt (if not merged with Syria in the USSR TT)

 

4 hours ago, VehicIe said:

Ex: Ukraine under the Russian tech tree, China and India now facing each other (border clashes hello?), Thailand and Malaysia in the Japanese tree (Still has risky 'offensive' rising sun WW2 flag in-game to some Asian countries). 

 

It can and will inevitably open the floodgates for more trolling, teamkilling, toxicity, harassing and dividing of the WT community and its players despite War Thunder being more diverse with nation representation.

 

Adding Malaysia or even the Philippines in the Japanese TT is not the worst idea considering that even though they didn't forgive what they done to them in WWII, they don't really hate them either infact they'll probably prefer being in the Japanese TT than let say the Chinese TT simply because they currently have a significantly more negative opinion towards the Chinese than the Japanese (though Britain is a better fit for Malaysia than Japan but it can go either way) also Thailand was an ally with Japan and are in still good relations with them, it's typically the Koreans & Chinese who usually do that. But yeah I agree that adding Ukraine into the Russian TT or even Vietnam into the Chinese TT is probably not a good idea even if most of their vehicles based designs are from said countries simply due to what you described

[ComradeHanz 136]

1+

yes Gib!!! always wanted a Nordic tech tree

[PacketlossRedux 595]

4 hours ago, AspandaIV said:

Germany - Hungary, Greece/Cyprus

Yugoslavia/Yugo-Romania (if independent) - Bulgaria, Ukraine, India, Indonesia (India and Indonesia are better fits for Yugoslavia then Britain and Japan respectively mainly due to geo-political reasons)
Poland (if independent) - Czechslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania

 

while i do agree with Yugo-Ro-Ukrain pair up, as they have similar technology and need eachother to make a standalone tree, i disagree on the case of Poland,Czechslovakia and Hungary, as there are more ties between Czechia and Hungary than between Germany and Hungary(mainly license production of aircraft)

 

Aside from the tank development connection there is the naval one,as the Hungarian/Austrian built A-H monarchy vessels were armed by the Skoda factory. And these vessels fit perfectly into the game.

And as Gaijin has previously said that neither Poland or Hungary fills out the requirements to be standalone nations in game, pairing up Poland,Hungary and Czech(slovakia)ia is the most logical in my opinion.

[ATrifle50 7]

On 13/04/2021 at 14:19, AspandaIV said:

Even though it would be preferable that South Korea be in either a US or a independent Republican Chinese/Taiwanese TT and North Korea in the Chinese TT due to how Gaijin currently structures TT's it will more likely to add Both Koreas into the Chinese TT. Finally there are a couple of more subtrees that can be added that you missed, you can figure those ones out

This is generally how i would structure it

US - Israel, Saudi-Arabia
USSR - Vietnam (Vietnam has rather poor relations with China even fought a war against the Chinese, they even have better relationship with the US and even Japan then they do with China), Cuba, Egypt & Syria (UAR)
Germany - Hungary, Greece/Cyprus
Britain - ANZAC, Canada, South Africa/Rhodesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Jordan
Italy - Turkey, UAE, Jordan (if not in British TT)
France - Benelux, Denmark and Norway (if not in Swedish TT)
Sweden - Finland, Austria, Switzerland (if not merged with Spain)
Japan - Thailand, Philippines
China - Iran, Both Koreas, Pakistan
Yugoslavia/Yugo-Romania (if independent) - Bulgaria, Ukraine, India, Indonesia (India and Indonesia are better fits for Yugoslavia then Britain and Japan respectively mainly due to geo-political reasons)
Poland (if independent) - Czechslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania
Argentina-Uruguay/Rio de la Plata & Brazil (if independent) - Bolivia, Peru
Spain/Spano-Swiss (if independent) - Portugal, Chile, Egypt (if not merged with Syria in the USSR TT)

 

Adding Malaysia or even the Philippines in the Japanese TT is not the worst idea considering that even though they didn't forgive what they done to them in WWII, they don't really hate them either infact they'll probably prefer being in the Japanese TT than let say the Chinese TT simply because they currently have a significantly more negative opinion towards the Chinese than the Japanese (though Britain is a better fit for Malaysia than Japan but it can go either way) also Thailand was an ally with Japan and are in still good relations with them, it's typically the Koreans & Chinese who usually do that. But yeah I agree that adding Ukraine into the Russian TT or even Vietnam into the Chinese TT is probably not a good idea even if most of their vehicles based designs are from said countries simply due to what you described

I think putting both Koreas to China is wrong, South Korean AFVs are technically related more to US or other NATO nations, not China and have no technical similarities with Chinese armor. Looking at the historic/political relations, South Korea is more suited to US tech tree.. Also just like what you said about Phillippines, South Korea and China are not in good terms since Korean war(and I doubt any people like China now) so putting South Korean Tech tree in US tech tree is better. If Gaijin INSISTs that US has too many equipments so they can't get South Korean TT, it can go to Japan's TT considering US planned to create anti-communism barrier in northeast Asia with south Korean land force and sea/air force of Japan. 

[Mariolatry 91]

On 13/04/2021 at 14:19, AspandaIV said:

France - Benelux, Denmark and Norway (if not in Swedish TT)
Sweden - Finland, Austria, Switzerland (if not merged with Spain)
Japan - Thailand, Philippines
China - Iran, Both Koreas, Pakistan

 

North Koreans vehicles for china for seems reasonable but South Korean vehicles for chinese tt is just Nonsense

 

IRL, China and South Korea have a huge military/diplomatic friction/conflict due to the THAAD deployment problem, and there are also problems in the West Sea/Yellow Sea's Fishing fleet (maritime milita) and problems due to PLAAF/PLAN's frequent entry into KADIZ, and last The ROK military even considers China's Northern Theater Command (78/79th Group Army) to be the number one threat over the North Korean force in emergency situation. In this situation, SK Vehicles cannot bind China's TT with any technical/political connection.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mariolatry

[DaBlitz_633 48]

On 11/04/2021 at 17:14, SonOfLaiti said:

The Thai and Japanese was just the example given for how to organize these sub nations, but yes in the description I mention "A suggestion for research progression is to make it so that vehicles from both nations can be in the same lineup"

Ah readn't, thanks

[Skeletovich 59]

I would like to hear the reasoning behind grouping the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia with France. 

[csla1972 849]

 

I would make a separate TT for Yugoslavia together with Poland and Czechoslovakia.  Yugoslavia in France is pure nonsense.

Edited April 15, 2021 by csla1972

[eleks12 1,079]

I support the basic premise of the of the suggestion. And i do think Minor nations like South Africa deserves better representation in the British Tech Tree.

But i would change up the placements of some of the nations like seperate Italy and Hungary. Since im a supporter of an Eastern Europe Tech Tree Or Visagrad Group Tree. And Hungary and Italy were not on the best of relations during WW1.

 

Also i made a simular suggestion some years ago... But it's kindoff outdated and the tree line i made for that is not perfect... But that suggestion does get my point across that "Minor Nations" does deserve better representation in the game. And faction based Tech Trees could be a great way to add new Independent Tech Trees.

 

 

Also i do think the Nordic Tree you made is awsome!  I made a Danish Norwegian Tech Tree a while back and getting it into the current Swedish Tree is something im pushing for. Same with Finland.

 

 

 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

1. In my opinion 3 big nations don't need subtrees at all (at least in the nearest future). One of the main reasons for SA vehicles in the British TT is to boost line-ups and increase the variety. Germany, USA and USSR already have the largest pool of vehicles and the largest amount of players. Making them larger will neglect other nations even more.

2. I don't think it's a good idea to combine nations which almost completely rely on Soviet or Soviet-based tech with nations using Western tech. Like mixing Hungary and Romania will end in a "trash" tree: T-55s, Panthers, T-34s, Leo 2, Ariete, Centauro, BMP-2, TR-85, Dardo, MLI-84, T-72M, IS-2M, OF-40, Leo I and etc. IMO Eastern Europe should come as a separate nation.

Nations which suit the Italian tree more are: Brazil, Spain, Switzerland; maybe also vehicles of Turkey, Portugal, Chile and Peru.

 

[chernobog17271 19]

On 14/04/2021 at 10:26, Mariolatry said:

 

North Koreans vehicles for china for seems reasonable but South Korean vehicles for chinese tt is just Nonsense

 

IRL, China and South Korea have a huge military/diplomatic friction/conflict due to the THAAD deployment problem, and there are also problems in the West Sea/Yellow Sea's Fishing fleet (maritime milita) and problems due to PLAAF/PLAN's frequent entry into KADIZ, and last The ROK military even considers China's Northern Theater Command (78/79th Group Army) to be the number one threat over the North Korean force in emergency situation. In this situation, SK Vehicles cannot bind China's TT with any technical/political connection.

Separating Korea's is utter nonsense, North Korea alone as twice as large population of Sweden that has its own tech tree, both Korea's combined have population of Germany.

 

Although you could argue that due to recent conflict such as North Korean submarine sinking South Korean corvette in 2010 for them to be separate.

[SonOfLaiti 146]

Update April 26, 2021; Added Army, Helicopter, and Aviation trees for Republic of Korea and Thailand.

[super_cacti 1,071]

I like this idea. I'm not a huge fan of sub-trees since I think each nations with atleast a good number of vehicles should be it's own techtree, but this does work better then what we have right now.

 

It will make those nations feel more unique since you actually got their flag shown properly in the top of the techtree.

[xXGaijinedXx 499]

I just don't like the idea of the 3 big nations getting so many new toys.