Bases and airfields in arcade battles, spawn height

[_Hegemon_ 1,758]

Can't believe this patch still didn't get reversed... bombers like the Wellingtons are useless now. They nearly always encounter fighters at the same ALT before even reaching the bombing targets and simply get chewed up with no fighting chance! This is so awful...

 

Do U want turn WarThunder to BomberRushThunder game ?

[ebbor10 93]

The underlying problem has been resolved (well partially), so there's no point no to undo the temporary patch.

[Valeriadrina 1,100]

Game length is still a problem, so whatever is done with the spawns will not suffice by itself. Ground targets on smaller maps still get wiped in 5 minutes even if fighters specifically target bombers (including nasty tactics like spawn camping), because some bombers dive so fast that once they pick up speed you won`t gain on them much at all until they are forced to level out after the throw their bomb load to target. So you can`t enjoy the game as a bomber or a fighter, it`s just dive rushing to see who can actually get his bombs dropped on the few ground targets that exist.

 

My suggestion: Spawn more mobile ground targets during them game and make ticket loss per ground target lower. This is my opinion only, but at least personally I find it hard to enjoy an arcade game unless it lasts at least 15 minutes and you actually get a change to get into a few fights and shoot down a few targets (or get shot down). Active game time outside central furballs is something like 30% of the total, rest is spend on approaching targets and running away from aggressors.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Valeriadrina

[ebbor10 93]

Yeah, it would be nice if the amount of ground targets is at least doubled.

[Rolfs_Kangaroo 14]

 

1. Battles played in arcade - 10 battles so far today - all AB, apparenly 2126 in total in HB, 33 in RB and sweet FA in sim.

2. Preferred aircraft class - fighter/bomber/attacker all - I play a mixture

3. Are the changes noticeable? yes

4. Our/enemy team managed to destroy bases and airfield quickly. In the first couple it was clear that no-one saw the very brief note at the launch of the map. I kept trying to tell one guy to stop bombing the base but he ignored me and ignored the one remaining pillbox. Last game I played I told people at the start. They blitzed the minibases, the game lasted about 8 minutes. Not much better. 

5. Gameplay /did not change - make ground targets even more valuable perhaps, and advertise this IN GAME to people as so many don't come on here.

6. My thoughts in general Nice try and I can see what you are trying to do. 

 

Question: Does any damage to the airfield that was attempted before the minibases were destroyed get saved and then become "live" once it is in-play? EG, if I drop 3000k of bombs will it suddenly appear as damage when the third minibase is gone or is all damage totally ignored before then and the base is fresh when it goes live?

 

No i tried it its a waste of bombs RE Question: Does any damage to the airfield that was attempted before the minibases were destroyed get saved and then become "live" once it is in-play? EG, if I drop 3000k of bombs will it suddenly appear as damage when the third minibase is gone or is all damage totally ignored before then and the base is fresh when it goes live?

[masterspader 9]

1.) Battles played in arcade - 2500 battles played in Arcade.

2.) Preferred aircraft class - Fighter, Attacker, Fighter Bomber (A20 was so fun before it got nerfed hard)

3.) Are the changes noticeable? - Yes, yes, YES, and YES!

4.) Enemy team destroying the bases quickly - If it is above a BR of 3.3 my games average a whole whopping 5 minutes. By the time I climb to attack bombers they either dive (cowards) or manage to one shot my engine (I can live with that) but after 1 bomber kill our tickets are down to 1/4 left and I have 1 kill for trying to stop the enemy team from rushing us right away.

5.) Gameplay - Simple fix add a lot more health to the bases and the airfield and increase the reward for killing them. Increase the reward for killing bombers (makes players want to hunt them more). 

6.) General thoughts - You are on the right track. Higher tier games (BR of 3.3 and above) that are not domination are almost unplayable unless you plan on bomber rushing. There is little reward for going after the bombers and making the match play out longer while my teammates reap the benefits down low. Minor fixes and you will have the perfect game.

[DeanWhittaker 1]

Would it be possible to select spawn height as an option in the start-up screen, I find it particularly annoying that my torpedo bomber starts so high up, and sometimes I wish my fighters could spawn higher to more easily counter bombers.

[plane_killer 13]

1. Battles played in arcade - 500+ battles

2. Preferred aircraft class - fighter, bomber

3. Are the changes noticeable? yes

4. Our/enemy team managed to destroy bases and airfield quickly. no

5. Gameplay became worse (mainly for bombers)

6. I would like to refer to masterspader's post and make some more points:

 

(...)

5.) Gameplay - Simple fix add a lot more health to the bases and the airfield and increase the reward for killing them. Increase the reward for killing bombers (makes players want to hunt them more).

(...)

 

I think that the solution for gameplay problems is somewhat different.

I don't agree with part of the 5th statement. At the moment bombers have enough attention. In tiers 3 and higher there are lots of fighters with powerful cannons, such as Jak-9K, Jak-9T, P-63, FockeWulfs and Bf-109s. It takes three or four of them to decimate the bombers.
Something must be done to make more fighters come to high altitude, but not only for the bombers! Increasing the reward for bombers would be unfair, because all fighters would desperately want to destroy enemy bombers and there would still be no reason for protecting them. Bombers need more protection and something must make friendly fighters give them that protection.

In my opinion, the solution for both problems is fairly simple (I presented my idea in the Suggestions thread, too - i think that it deserves some attention):

1. The reward for ALL KILLS should rise with altitude. This would attract fighters to high altitudes and they would want to protect bombers by themselves. None of the bombers would need to ask for assist, as it is now. The enemy fighters would attack the bombers, because they are easy and profitable kills. The friendly fighters would climb to hunt bombers too, but for sure they would also engage in dogfight with enemy fighters (it would be very profitable as well).
2. There should be a bonus for protecting bombers. For example, additional +70% of reward for killing fighters in a distance less than 2km from any friendly bomber. There could also be a new title or achievement called "Bomber Defender", which would also give some research points or silver lions.
3. As masterspader wrote, a lot more health should be added to the bases and the airfield and the reward for killing them should be increased, because bombers might find themselves in a dangerous environment. The game would be much more exciting from the bombers' point of view.

I think that rewards for killing ground units with bombs should also rise with altitude, as it is much more difficult to destroy moving targets from a few thousand meters than from 50 meters. This would also make the scoring system more consistent.

Edited May 2, 2014 by SIiver

[DaddyWabbit 1,162]

1. Battles played in arcade - 8000 total missions,over 26k flyouts. Currently play Rank 3,4 and 5 battles (a lot, daily) playing a bit less because of this.

2. Preferred aircraft class - I fly everything, in each country.Depends on what is going on in the match and what type of map GT / Dom or a map..

3. Are the changes noticeable? NO

4. Our/enemy team managed to destroy bases and airfield quickly. YES it changed a little when there are not too many bombers, but bases and airfield still drop very rapidly when too many bombers are in one match. matcehs greater than 12 on 12.

5. Gameplay became better/worse/did not change. Gameplay improved slightly on maps that have the sub-bases until 1.39 bomber improvements, however no changes on Green Ridge, Crater or Hidden Base, . Aside from green ridge , Crater and hidden base maps always end in base bomb and usually quickly.

 

1.39 higher payloads increased bomber spamming and base rushing on all maps and now gameplay has greatly deteriorated into bomb thunder or bomber mode in these ranks with very short matches once again. 

 

6. My thoughts in general The Ground Target maps are still under performing when too many bombers are present (larger matches with greater than 12 on 12 in ranks 3 and 4). More GT are needed, more sub-bases or at least more hitpoints on the sub-bases.

 

Sub-base SL reward is too little per bomb: Sub-base HP strength is too low in ranks 3 and 4.

 

a. Increase the strength of the sub-bases X 300%. So they cannot be dropped in one shot by a single bomber. 10 bombers in a match 3 get a single sub base for 2000 lions each and the other 7 have to rush the base to get anything. If each sub-base took 3-4 drops and rewarded each drop. that single change would improve play and help matches last longer.

b. Reward the bomber about 1000 silver lions for each 4000lbs. that hit the target - 125 lions for 250lb, 250 lions per 500lbs, 1000lbs = 500 lions

 

The bombing gameplay still needs some immediate attention. Every other day there is a new thread started either an i quit playing post or a please fix bombing issues thread.

 

Suggestion thread on this topic with poll here.

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/136160-welcome-to-bomb-thunder-part-2-fixsuggestions-for-141/

Edited May 13, 2014 by DaddyWabbit

[Berserk_NOR 58]

1. 2286 battles

2. Fighters/interceptors

3. no ( i do not pay full attention to it as im busy gunning down stuff)

4. no

5. did not change

6. all hail the climbers because maps are so small it becomes THE vital spesification! More serious: I personally want bigger maps and higher alltitude fighting. So one can get the dynamics of planes that are being capable in high alltitudes.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Berserk2908

[RACLETTE_PARTY 4]

1. Battles played in arcade - couple thousands battles
2. Preferred aircraft class - fighter
3. Are the changes noticeable? no
4. Our/enemy team managed to destroy bases and airfield quickly. Yes
5. Gameplay became did not change
6. My thoughts in general: yers, Bs, whatever bombers gang up, game is over in 2 min. If airfield is gone, the game should go on until all ground targets are taken out.

[frozenscotsman 7]

Airfield rush has not been fixed. Ive played 3 games today an my longest was just a tad over 5 minutes. Fighters still cannot reach the bombers. Why dont all planes spawn at same hight? Its stupid to have fighters spawn way below bombers. How are we to escort bombers when fighters cannot climb to hight in time? How are we to stop incoming bombers if fighters cannot climb to hight in time? 

[szikorabalazs 148]

My problem is that B-17s turns like a fighter and it is very hard to kill. Usually in every match I start climbing and try to intercept the bombers in arcade. Yers and B17/24s are climb up so high, very few plane can intercept them. And if the bombers have trouble, they just jump out from the plane or start to fly to the end of the map leaving with 2 choices. 1. you chase them and let the other bombers bomb out the bases. 2. you intercept the other bombers, and let a B-17 return to another pass to bomb out the bases. German fighters are so bad at climbing, that ever in Tier 4 fighters have hard time with the ineffective weapons. And the B-17 gunners are so damn accurate, and fly like a prop plane. The main problem is this in arcade...

[DaddyWabbit 1,162]

For the love of god ,please address the GT maps under performing, i dont care how, but "soon".

 

Too many bombers in one match 16 vs 16 20 vs 20 and 80% bomber spam.and these matches are horribly short , not fun or entertaining, and just get plain old. 

 

I play less and less now, and very "soon" not at all. 3-4 minute games are a complete waste of time  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

[Berserk_NOR 58]

Bigger maps! spesially for Ground forces.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Berserk2908

[Sadolf 2,385]

It was told over and over again: much more hp on airfield, more targets to bomb.

Match should not be automatically won by destroying airfield

 

Recently after making bombers more powerfull arcade games are pure joke.

Hordes of noskills hiding behind autogunners in their B17 diving to their deaths for only one drop, they dont even care whats around them.

It takes 5 seconds to kill them but they still comming untill they winning match in 3 minutes time.

 

Where is warthunder we know from early closed beta...its gone.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Sadolf

[PapaPnut 44]

For the love of god ,please address the GT maps under performing, i dont care how, but "Soon™™".

 

Too many bombers in one match 16 vs 16 20 vs 20 and 80% bomber spam.and these matches are horribly short , not fun or entertaining, and just get plain old. 

 

I play less and less now, and very "Soon™™" not at all. 3-4 minute games are a complete waste of time  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

 

Ditto. I've invested a lot of time tiering up all my countries and want to actually fly my level 4 planes.  I'm pleased Gaijin is concerned about gameplay and did something to address the Yer spam problem.  But use your heads guys, the way to do it was not to increase the loads of the B17's and DO's and decrease reload times.  All this did was make the problem exponentially worse giving 3 1/2 countries silly bombing abilities at T3-4. On Sunday I had 7 consecutive 16v16 matches that were 12vs14 heavy bombers that ended in 3 minutes or less.  T3-4 is simply not any fun anymore, which is the whole point to playing the game.

 

I understand the task of appropriately balancing gameplay is a far more difficult task then most people realize.  But Gaijin needs to stop doing things that can obviously unbalance the game without adequately testing the full impact to gameplay parameters before public release.  During testing Gajin needs to start thinking like the increaseing percentage of players who are not here for fair play, but who when a new patch comes out immediately look for ways to exploit the new system.  Predict, find, and eliminate the weaknesses and loopholes during a longer testing period. BEFORE PUBLIC RELEASE.  I do not know the size or demographics of your prerelease test base, but it's not adequetely identifying obvious play balance issues. 

 

While I applaud Gaijins effort and commitment to developing the War Thunder platform, you are rushing development of both planes and ground forces and ruining gameplay and player enjoyment in the process.  Only the lower tiers are currently reasonably balanced and even when I fly them it's new pilots vs experienced pilots and it feels like I'm out there clubbing baby seals.  That's not much fun either.  I play computer games for fun and relaxation and there are a lot of gaming options out in the market.  I am rapidly loosing patience for WT to become fun again.

[Desert_King_ 18]

Sounds good  ;)s

[Dzo 27]

How bout interceptors(escort)-3500m,fighters -2000m,bombers 4500m ? And have some mini goals,play as an interceptor 10 games - certain SL rewars,play aa a bomber etc etc.Save 10 bombers etc etc

[DaddyWabbit 1,162]

How bout interceptors(escort)-3500m,fighters -2000m,bombers 4500m ? And have some mini goals,play as an interceptor 10 games - certain SL rewars,play aa a bomber etc etc.Save 10 bombers etc etc

or how about they fix the damn bombing/short matches problem in AB ground strike maps first, so a match can last more than 5 minutes and you might actually use more than one plane :dntknw: then they can do what ever floral stuff you want,

 

I dont care as long as you can actually enjoy and use all the damn planes and  crew slots you grinded or paid for. :facepalm:

[Dzo 27]

Climbing 2000m in a Bf 109 G2 isnt that much while bombera would reach from the start around 5000ish meteres,if the would have set these spawn heights,so it would make some fun to play as a bomber and as an escort fighteR,at least imo.I myself find it hard to climb in upgraded T3 and T4 German planes to get to B 17's and Yers and jap bombers,while they are allready half way to my minibases or GT's.Althou i rarely come into games where i have escorts myself while there are at least few Bf's,Fw's Mustangs and other US kinda jazz.Not to mention i dont see Me 410's and other heavy bomber hunters.

[TheForestRoger27 1,100]

or how about they fix the damn bombing/short matches problem in AB ground strike maps first, so a match can last more than 5 minutes and you might actually use more than one plane :dntknw: then they can do what ever floral stuff you want,

 

I dont care as long as you can actually enjoy and use all the damn planes and  crew slots you grinded or paid for. :facepalm:

 

I guess making HP of bases and airfields to exponentially get bigger with BR/rank is a rocket science for Gaijin.

I reached to jets with USA and UK, next are USSR and Germany. After that Gaijin can hear me singing Kumbaya,

time to move on and play other games, I'm completely exhausted from a brainless bomber spamming and being forced to go against completely broken B-17's if I want to win and sorry, I'm not that brain dead to spam bombers all day long and to join brainless bomber spam party...

 

Dozens and dozens of threads and hundreds of posts of people complaining to fix B-17's and to fix quick matches and nothing.

So, yeah...after I finish grinding of rank 4 planes, it's goodbye.

There's no point in staying here and playing low rank planes forever because people at Gaijin are sitting on their ears and have no intentions whatsoever to fix their broken game...and they probably wonder why their playerbase doesn't grow, even with Ground Forces...

[IlI_ACE_IlI 210]

Just start everyone at same height, this will force fighters to play escort unless they want to lose, and it will force bombers to stay in a group unless they want to lose. This will also force bombers to do a 180 if they want to get altitude safely from enemies, which will slow down the bombing runs by a lot and the matches will be longer.

Then everyone can stop ing  and play the game again.

(This picture above is a female dog)

Edited June 15, 2014 by IlI_ACE_IlI

[SMGVII 10]

I'm sure it's already been brought up if so I'm just echoing it: bomber rushing is still a huge issue.

 

I routinely see rounds end in well under 5 minutes, even when the losing team does its best to shot the bombers down.

 

You can't prevent people from using what aircraft they want so you NEED (I repeat, NEED) to DRASTICALLY buff both mini-bases and airfields.

[DissidentHelion 42]

1. Battles played in arcade

    1857 battles

 

2. Preferred aircraft class

    175 hours fighter

    85 hours bomber

    26 hours attacker

(Keep in mind here these stats haven't updated since at least before ground forces came out, as according to my stats as viewed in-game, I have never played in tanks. In reality I have played in them... lots.)

 

3. Are the changes noticeable?

    In low tier, yes, in high tier, not at all.

 

4. Our/enemy team managed to destroy bases and airfield quickly.

    Yes, quite. Didn't check the game time but it was maybe a few minutes. (High tier)

 

5. Gameplay became better/worse/did not change

    Haven't noticed much change as far as time in game goes, but there is a difference in how people seem to be playing.

 

6. My thoughts in general

    To start, most of this pertains to "tier 4" gameplay, as the changes do in fact seem to have helped in lower tiers quite a bit. I do remember the days when base destruction was an auto win, and when it switched to being base destruction reducing tickets at a steady rate, and the current system is indeed a big improvement over that, especially with the addition of the secondary bases. Though while the idea is a good one, it doesn't seem to have helped, at, all. The only thing it seems to have done was change how people play in higher tier matches. It used to be a few bombers per side going for the bases or maybe even the ground targets, and the games tended to last at least a decent amount of time. As of late though, more often than not I find myself in matches where either one, or both teams consist mostly of bombers, with the games lasting MAYBE a few minutes. Most of these games I can get maybe one kill, sometimes not even that, on a bomber (mind you, one of them out of, say, 10) before the game is over. Effectively this has reduced the fun factor of higher tier (not including games with jets, because I won't even talk about those here) to almost nothing. As much as I hate it, lately I find myself flying more and more in mid to low tiers simply because that's the only place where I can actually have a decent, mixed match where I don't know that the game will be over in a couple of minutes due to armadas of bombers decimating the bases in a matter of minutes.

 

    On a side note, I must agree that base rushing is still a MASSIVE issue, and I would also agree that the bases/secondary bases need HP buffs. I would say reduce their reward to nothing at all, but people would still base rush just to get the win.

 

    Also, I took a screenshot of the player line up in my last 5.3 BR (that being my BR, I know there's a spread) just to do some math on the numbers.