Arcade - Fighter Tutorial Videos

[long5hot 7,302]

Cenric a review of the Mk Ia is in the works. I'm collecting footage on a bunch of planes, based on what I feel like flying more than anything else, and the Ia is among them. This means I won't follow the order suggested by the poll for the next tutorial vid or two, but only because I needed a break from it and to fly something I enjoyed for a while - and I definitely like the tier 2 Brits.

[Freeborn 12,815]

Well it looks like the mark 1 spitfire is a purely defensive plane. It has poor energy retention, can't really turn fight at low altitudes or boom and zoom anything because it is to light. The only way I can see getting kills with it is for the opponent to screw up and use their plane incorrectly.

 

 

It's really not that bad though I personally despise the 7.7 mgs, what you need to remmber that you will usually have time to prepare your engagment. Picking the right moment and target is usually all it needs to get some kills with any plane.

 

Take a look at some of long5hots other videos, the Video about the Bf109 E 1 for example might be helpfull. 

A different plane no doubt but the armament is similar which should help a lot.

 

But putting the Ia's problems aside do you really want to miss out on all the famous spitfires that followed it?

[Resonance84 28]

Still like the new style; also I strongly approve of the acrobatic smoke; it makes piecing together how the decisions each of you much easier.  Also it is really pretty.

 

Well it looks like the mark 1 spitfire is a purely defensive plane. It has poor energy retention, can't really turn fight at low altitudes or boom and zoom anything because it is to light. The only way I can see getting kills with it is for the opponent to screw up and use their plane incorrectly.

 

I don't think that's a fair assessment either.  Some of this is that the spitfire is being held up to the I-16, which is something of a strange case.  Having tooled around in an I-16 in a realistic test flight I think the plane "suffers" from poor stability.  The plane isn't very easy to fly but that means it ends up being better at maneuvering so long as you can control it.  The nature of arcade is that planes come with fly-by-wire computers bolted on; which suddenly flips the Ishak's disadvantage into an advantage.  You also need to remember that Ishak's are made of plywood (almost literally!).  Even the airsoft 7.7mm's on the spit set it aflame in a single burst in the head on.  Anyone that sneaks up on an Ishak that is focused on a mad turning battle is going to shred it or light it ablaze.  I think that also explains why some of the Russian aces didn't want to give up the plane when other designs became available; it was great once you got used to handling it and pretty much a deathtrap for anyone else.

 

I think the early Spits suffer from "second best" syndrome; they are turnfighters but not necessarily the best turnfighter.  This means you need to mix up your tactics; turn-fighting US bathtubs and BnZ'ing light Japanese/Russian kites.  I'm curious to see what other opinions are.

 

Also even though the I16 is obviously superior, notice how much trouble AIM was giving me and how difficult I found it to get a decent shot at him.

 

Which probably would have given lots of time for someone else to pick off the Ishak in a real match.  

[AIM_120_AMRAAM 234]

 

I think the early Spits suffer from "second best" syndrome; they are turnfighters but not necessarily the best turnfighter.  This means you need to mix up your tactics; turn-fighting US bathtubs and BnZ'ing light Japanese/Russian kites.  I'm curious to see what other opinions are.

 

Using the Spitfire I against long5hot just reminded me of why I hate the early Spitfires (the IIb is somewhat better, simply because of better altitude performance and dual cannons to kill stuff). But then, unlike the godking of this thread, I am not an allrounder, I want to BnZ everything in everything. And even for dogfighting and low-altitude combat there are somewhat better suited alternatives available.

 

They're mediocre to above-average in everything and get therefore beaten by lots of stuff. Japanese will outturn you, Russians will out-energy/outgun you, Germans will outclimb/outgun you and Americans will out-everything-except-turn you. Since you're not doing set-up 1v1 battles in Arcade, you always get a mixture of these in any combination to oppose you.

 

Early Spitfire threat levels range from cannon fodder to nuisance in most equally tiered planes. The IIb is a different matter and can be quite unnerving when used correctly.

 

The I and IIa should get the LaGGs nickname, as for me they're flying coffins, nothing more.

 

/harsh opinion off

 

TL;DR: I hate the early Spitfires.

Edited June 4, 2014 by AIM_120_AMRAAM

[Freeborn 12,815]

I think the early Spits suffer from "second best" syndrome; they are turnfighters but not necessarily the best turnfighter.  This means you need to mix up your tactics; turn-fighting US bathtubs and BnZ'ing light Japanese/Russian kites.  I'm curious to see what other opinions are.

 

 

 

I don't think that is really a Issue most players will either have very little experience when flying them, making a "jack of all trades" not such a bad choice, or they will have enough experience to adapt.

[long5hot 7,302]

I think the early Spits suffer from "second best" syndrome; they are turnfighters but not necessarily the best turnfighter.  This means you need to mix up your tactics; turn-fighting US bathtubs and BnZ'ing light Japanese/Russian kites.  I'm curious to see what other opinions are.

The early Spits cannot BnZ - their energy retention is just too woeful for that tactic. The light Japanese kites also have the advantage of being superb climbers, which would very quickly nullify any energy advantage a Spit Ia might have. If it didn't kill the kite on the 1st pass its in a world of pain. The same could be said for going against Chaikas and Ishaks.

Of course this is all highly theoretical, as sustained 1v1 situations rarely happen in Arcade - which is why AIM & I are enjoying the change of pace offered by dueling in custom battles.

[Target1331 3,055]

That FW 190 video has so many good points/tips in it! Especially the notion to:

1. Stay below a bomber to try to keep them from diving (I hope Gaijin would speed cap aircraft at their realistic max speed as suggested here: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/136404-dive-speed-limit-in-ab/) or even make them climb and pick them off.
2. Weaving left to right attacks against bombers.

3. FREAKIN BOMBERS STAY UP HIGH IF FRIENDLY FIGHTERS ARE AROUND! I've stopped helping bombers that I'm trying to help only to see them dive down when I'm about to help.

4. Attacking the bombers near spawn; Well, for one the bomber dive rush can best be stopped near the spawn (and even then not always) and as you said, not your fault that the enemy team isn't capable of sending 2 or 3 fighters up to help protect the bomber spawn by distracting you to fight them of (they don't even have to attack you right away just get your attention and their bombers would already have a higher chance of surviving).

And finally 5. "This is War (Thunder); it is brutal" - well made point :D

 

Best regards and thanks,

 

Phil

 

PS: And yeah the Ki-45s were so much nicer before 1.39... :(

[long5hot 7,302]

Versus #3 is up. A6M2 vs Spit 2b and Hellcat. Unfortunately I used music that might be blocked in some countries, my apologies for this & I'll try to avoid that in future...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFyNKKaNopo

[Resonance84 28]

I think the early Spits suffer from "second best" syndrome; they are turnfighters but not necessarily the best turnfighter.  This means you need to mix up your tactics; turn-fighting US bathtubs and BnZ'ing light Japanese/Russian kites.  I'm curious to see what other opinions are.

 

 

The early Spits cannot BnZ - their energy retention is just too woeful for that tactic. The light Japanese kites also have the advantage of being superb climbers, which would very quickly nullify any energy advantage a Spit Ia might have. If it didn't kill the kite on the 1st pass its in a world of pain. The same could be said for going against Chaikas and Ishaks.

I sit thoroughly corrected; although I'm starting to get the impression that the Spitfire is not really a terribly good plane for arcade.  It seems to be forced to face opponents who are superior in it's chosen style of fighting and not terribly capable of changing tactics.  I get the feeling I'm sort of the polar opposite of AIM_120; I prefer planes that have a tactic that they are good at but flexible enough to adapt.  The Hellcat is actually a pretty good example of that.

 

I'm honestly surprised that the A6M2 seems to so massively outclass the F6F.  I would have thought it would come down to the starting parameters of the situation; whichever plane was on top would be the winner. 

[long5hot 7,302]

I'm honestly surprised that the A6M2 seems to so massively outclass the F6F.  I would have thought it would come down to the starting parameters of the situation; whichever plane was on top would be the winner.

Well, it only outclasses it for one reason - we were forcing the issue. The F6F pilot could at any time have chosen to break off combat, fly to a safe distance, climb and then engage from an altitude advantage if the Zero didn't climb or in a very high alt dogfight if it did - I can't imagine the Zero being able to compete at 7000m.

We didn't do that because it'd make for a boring vid, plus in Arcade you generally want to finish kills quickly. However breaking off & running away when the situation turned sour is exactly what the Hellcat can & should do even in Arcade. Not being able to kill the Zero doesn't mean the Zero's able to shoot the Hellcat down.

[AIM_120_AMRAAM 234]

I sit thoroughly corrected; although I'm starting to get the impression that the Spitfire is not really a terribly good plane for arcade.

 

It's an attempt at being a Jack-of-all-Trades while failing to be one. Biplanes outturn you and you can't gain seperation because of the horrible energy retention unless you go for a dive, you don't have insta-gib weapons to dissolve furballs with a few sweeps and you don't have superior climbing capabilities. I'd say that a late Gladiator/Falco/I-15 would already be very tough to nigh impossible.

 

Then with higher tiered enemies you can't headon because of cannons/.50 spam, you cannot outrun stuff, you cannot outclimb, you can only outturn it. And that is useless against stuff like F6F or even MC.202s dropping out of low orbit onto your head.

 

For me, the plane behaves horribly and it faces tough enemies. It's terrible by concept and environment (the way it is presented in WT).

 

 

The Hellcat is actually a pretty good example of that.

 

Heh, I consider the HC to be a specialist par-excellence. Since I just did another two hour session with long5hot, I think that it is somewhat lacking in energy fighting. I found it to shine as bright as a Supernova when using it for BnZ and high-altitude heavy-duty vertical fighting.

 

 

 

I'm honestly surprised that the A6M2 seems to so massively outclass the F6F.

 

That's partly because of the absolutely sick WEP on the A6M2. In the video, when long5hot did the fake dive before dropping the first time onto me, I was at pre-fake speed again when he came in. Going from 250 to 350 kph in the Zero at 1500m is a matter of seconds with WEP in level flight. It's just brutal.

[long5hot 7,302]

That's partly because of the absolutely sick WEP on the A6M2. In the video, when long5hot did the fake dive before dropping the first time onto me, I was at pre-fake speed again when he came in. Going from 250 to 350 kph in the Zero at 1500m is a matter of seconds with WEP in level flight. It's just brutal.

Also when I climbed aggressively in the Zero I was able to eat up AIM's altitude advantage in very little time at all & force things into a series of head-ons rather than allowing him to dive at me. It was interesting how different each of our tactics were flying those planes, but the same end result - eventually the Zero got close enough & the Hellcat was in trouble, but only because we were fighting to the death and running away wasn't an option.

[Resonance84 28]

Heh, I consider the HC to be a specialist par-excellence. Since I just did another two hour session with long5hot, I think that it is somewhat lacking in energy fighting. I found it to shine as bright as a Supernova when using it for BnZ and high-altitude heavy-duty vertical fighting.

 

The Hellcat is a surprisingly good turner with pretty strong elevators making it more maneuverable than you'd expect.  You just need to be sure to work in a lot of low yo-yo's and split-s's to keep your speed up or it will bleed away after a 360 or two.

 

The big thing is that if you are up at altitude (4000m-5000m) you can engage in turnfights with planes that are really not good at it like MiG's, LaGG's, F4U's, or FW.  You can even give a BF-109 a rough time if your on equal footing and he's not careful about it.  You just need to remember that are plenty of things up there that can mess you up like Ki-61's or P-39's.

[MC_Guderian 20]

I watched your videos for the 190 and 109 and they had a lot of good stuff about roping dopes and exploiting an energy advantage, but my biggest trouble right now is what to do when I don't have that advantage.  Sometimes I get to 5km and can freely build up energy until I can kill anyone I want with impunity, but sometimes I get to 5km and I'm the only one up there against five or six enemies who are all making a beeline for me.  I obviously can't go head to head with them and giving up the altitude is suicide too.

 

What do I do then?  Once I have altitude supremacy I'm pretty much unkillable, but getting there is what's killing me now.

[long5hot 7,302]

Cfoofoo, in the battle for altitude supremacy you've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. If you're on your own up there & several bandits are heading straight at you, your choice is either go head on & take one of them with you or to dive and survive.

Giving up the altitude is not suicide, far from it. Diving into friendly territory can drag several of them down after you where the seagulls will enjoy ripping them to shreds and potentially allowing you to start climbing again without opposition. If you aren't followed down & the enemies maintain high alt superiority then you'll be restricted to a lower altitude role. Most high-alt energy fighters are quite capable of BnZing in & out of the ground level furball and/or picking up low level ground attackers doing runs on tank columns. This requires hanging back in a defensive position with an altitude around 2000m, watching out for anyone above who might want to dive on you, then converting that altitude to speed for your attack runs & climbing once more as you extend away.

[Timoski_Redder1 82]

My favorite WT youtuber, longshot!

 

And Mr. IchhasseHartzIV did very well!  He nailed the P47 - and I know it, as I love this plane (Lord Trollingham showed me how to fly it).

 

It is basically a bomber farmer, and in a well executed attack run can take anything out... 1 engine fighter, 4 engine bomber, anything.

 

Thing is at altitude it is NOTICEABLE, in AB, that with altitude comes better performance.  I start climbing from fighter spawn and have to WEP but ast a certain altitude the plane just gallops.  3500-4000 meters is the altitude - then you go to town.

 

IchhasseHartzIV is wrong though on his ammo choice - API-T rules (and is so pweeeeety!).

 

This is my favorite plane, much better than higher rated Lightning as of now (20mm were nerfed and sparle, plus P47 has 8 freedomcals and so much ammo on it.... it's love, what can I say).

 

 

The only thing better than this in AB is the various cobras and airacobras derp planes that do not obey physics and have UFO flight models, but I would feel dirty flying those.

 

 

Edit:

Longshot:

"Giving up the altitude is not suicide, far from it. Diving into friendly territory can drag several of them down after you where the seagulls will enjoy ripping them to shreds and potentially allowing you to start climbing again without opposition."

 

You sure you're playing the same AB mode the rest of us are playing?

 

In AB most planes CAN follow you in a dive, especially derp cannon UFO planes like the cobras or Yak's, and your derp teammates will ignore what's your on six anyway.

 

What you want to do is gain speed, retain speed and zoom away horizontally.  And of course in P47 giving up altitude is suicide UNLESS you have lots of speed (400-500 km/h) build up.

 

What he showed in the vid is HOW to play this plane - high up, build up speed, dive, pew pew, run away horizontally or if no enemy around start climbing again.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Timoski_Redder1

[Timoski_Redder1 82]

Ouuuuuuu!

 

Do the Bf109 G-2/trop.

[long5hot 7,302]

Longshot:
"Giving up the altitude is not suicide, far from it. Diving into friendly territory can drag several of them down after you where the seagulls will enjoy ripping them to shreds and potentially allowing you to start climbing again without opposition."
 
You sure you're playing the same AB mode the rest of us are playing?

In AB most planes CAN follow you in a dive, especially derp cannon UFO planes like the cobras or Yak's, and your derp teammates will ignore what's your on six anyway.

Absolutely sure :) Yes it doesn't work all the time, but mostly if you dive into a friendly crowd with enemies on your tail you can usually be guaranteed than some blue hyenas will be attracted to the easy kill you're gifting them. I didn't say that red planes wouldn't be able to follow you, in fact its best if they do (the more the better) as they're sacrificing their hard-won altitude advantage chasing a single kill down in front of enemy fighter spawn. Even if you die, you've won by luring those planes to their deaths.

Anyway, maybe its just me but I rarely have a situation where I pull chasers down in front of my fighter spawn & my team ignores them. Indeed I've done exactly this in several videos, if I remember rightly, including a loooonng chase in my G50 attracting at least 4 chasers and leading them halfway across the map to where my team could (and did) deal with them.

What you want to do is gain speed, retain speed and zoom away horizontally. And of course in P47 giving up altitude is suicide UNLESS you have lots of speed (400-500 km/h) build up.

In the scenario Cfoofoo described, which wasn't P47-specific, he was alone at altitude with several enemy fighters flying straight for him. Its assumed that he didn't have either an energy or altitude advantage and therefore couldn't run away or climb to safety. His choice was either to die in a headon or to dive, which he described as suicide & I argued otherwise. There's no point dieing pointlessly at altitude in that situation if by diving you can drag them after you & probably live to fly another day.

[Timoski_Redder1 82]

Watching the P47 vid and of course, he sees the wunder-machina P39Q, the airacobra UFO with derp cannon that ruthlessly conquers the laws of aerodynamics, physics and engine performance.

 

Heh.

 

Mr. Longshot, I have become a bitter, cynical, sour as a lemon evil man - this is what playing WT has done to me.  I don't play to win - I play to kill bombers.  Incidentally, this prolongs the round and gives every one else a better game, but one cannot be perfect :lol:  Extend away in horizontal and usually the AB derp will lose interest in you and go dive into a furball.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the only thing my teammates are good for is to shoot through me to get an enemy plane I was pursuing or to obscure my target by flying in front of me or to crash into me.

 

Although lately I have seen some decent high altitude players from both sides in AB, but unfortunately most of them are the loathsome UFO cobras (boo! hiss!).

 

 

Totally another topic - I have tried the early Brit fighter lineup and good golly, are they slow, lose energy a lot and shoot lollipops :?s

 

 

In fact, forget the Messerschmitt - do the P39Q instead.  In my experience it rules the arcade skies.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Timoski_Redder1

[Guest]

Well, having 37mm cannon in nose in AB is a bit godly. Good they increased the reloading time based on calibre.

 

I was flying the last month mostly RB, which hooked me up due to law of physics and common sense. Friend told me into going AB yesterday... I took me 3 games to adjust and harden up. I made similar observation as MightyJingles, the better you are getting in RB, the more you suck in AB. Thanks a lot for your YouTube channel long5hot... I ended watching your review videos instead of flying myself and was feeling much better. :)

[long5hot 7,302]

Glad I could help X :)

Actually I guess its time for a quick status update. I nearly have all the video I need for either Spit Mk1 or A5M4 vids, am still collecting material for F4F, and I'm trying to twist AIM's arm & get him to take on the Me410. I've also recorded enough "versus" footage (mostly of AIM shooting me down) to last a lifetime. I have however gotten on a bit of a roll making skins over the last week, which has slowed down my vid creation somewhat. Its only temporary, I'll be back into it soon enough with some new review vids.

[Freeborn 12,815]

 

In fact, forget the Messerschmitt - do the P39Q instead.  In my experience it rules the arcade skies.

 

Actually I don't have much respect for the P39Q. It is quiet powerfull if used in surprise at short range, byond that I think it is easily surpassed by many fighters. 

 

should add at high altitude

Edited June 11, 2014 by Freeborn

[YamadaKenshi 9]

I gotta say... swordfish xD

Jokes aside. If you could get the wirraway cos there is like no coverage of it!

[starkwolf 609]

I watched your videos for the 190 and 109 and they had a lot of good stuff about roping dopes and exploiting an energy advantage, but my biggest trouble right now is what to do when I don't have that advantage.  Sometimes I get to 5km and can freely build up energy until I can kill anyone I want with impunity, but sometimes I get to 5km and I'm the only one up there against five or six enemies who are all making a beeline for me.  I obviously can't go head to head with them and giving up the altitude is suicide too.

 

What do I do then?  Once I have altitude supremacy I'm pretty much unkillable, but getting there is what's killing me now.

 

I haven't watched the video, but I would agree that this is precisely what can be frustrating about any given plane that is BnZ based, in arcade, chosen after the first choice (and of course assuming that other players don't choose the same plane or same nation). Basically, in my experience it boils down to BnZ what you can, and head towards allies/AA if you get BnZ'd. Also, you generally have a speed advantage, so running is a viable option if they try to chase you. 

 

 

Strategy 1: energy cost

If you get BnZ'd: Try to lure the enemy as low as possible, and if they give full pursuit without backing off until they are in gun range, that is your chance to turn or otherwise make them spend more energy. 

Think of it like an auction: how much energy are they willing to spend to get you? You are faster and better at acquiring energy over time, but right now they have more than you. The idea is to drive the 'energy price' of killing you as high as possible, while staying close to your allies. One of 2 things will generally happen if you do this right:

1) though your XP and lion gain will be terribly low, you will essentially cancel him out, which if your team is winning on their own may actually help prevent him from incurring significant losses on your team. And quite frankly, at least if he is going for you he can't simultaneously target bombers.

2) he gives up and finds another target, giving you a chance to build up energy. Good to go!

3) If he goes all out, but his plane is not as fast performance wise (a likely possibility, but obviously in this situation he will be faster from diving), and you successfully maneuver to bring him to lower speeds, keeping an obstacle or ally nearby to prevent him from getting a shot, you should be able to kill him. He is low, slow, and near allies. If your allies don't get him, you should get an easy second shot.

 

I have done this plenty of times flying the Zero when an enemy tries to dive on me, and it is the primary plane that I use this strategy for, but I found it works on faster and less maneuverable planes too. 

 

2) Snapshot maneuvering

Essentially, this strategy turns a diving attack by one plane into a head-on pass, by climbing at the right moment. This is an extremely difficult maneuver to master, and it takes practice. But I have shot down BF-109s diving on me with a P-38 climb, and various planes with a sudden Yak-9 climb. This requires your plane to have good guns (which it has), but it takes a lot of practice to time it properly. Climb too early, and you will stall. Climb too late, and you will be shot down. The key is to only do this after you have built up enough speed to climb straight up (and maneuver) for 2-3 seconds (less if you are an accurate gunner, more if you are not). Obviously, this speed is best acquired by diving first for a short time, when you recognize the threat to come. Usually, I find this manuever results in mutual destruction, but I have managed to get a few kills this way, I have attached a screenshot to give you an idea of how it looks:

[spoiler][attachment=82136:shot 2014.05.01 01.16.05.jpg][/spoiler]

 

For obvious reasons, this strategy works best with planes that pitch up quickly, have good speed, and high firepower, which is most BnZ planes, though there are exceptions such as the Yak-9, which I have generally found does not generally reach the altitudes of German planes and US BnZ planes, but can still pull off the maneuver because it is fast, pitches up quickly, and has a powerful cannon. Planes that struggle only in extended climbs, but have the listed features may still be able to use this strategy. 

 

rant with joke incoming:

[spoiler]

Too often historians and players alike emphasize the power of BnZ, but forget that a plane which is being dived on at high altitudes does have options. BnZ is an effective and frustrating strategy, that cannot be denied. But too often we treat the target as entirely helpless and simply waiting to be snatched up. This is not the case. Snapshot maneuvering can help. Call your mechanic if you experience gunshot wounds, shuddering or stalling. discontinue snapshot maneuvering if you experience shuddering or low aircraft speed warnings as these may be signs of stalling. Do not attempt to start Snapshot maneuvering if your speed count is low. I-185s should not take Snapshot maneuvering under any condition. 

 

 If you or someone you know is being dived on, there is help . PM me at s-t-a-r-k-w-o-l-f. PM now :good: . 

 

Okay, back to serious. It is kindof a pet-peeve of mine when people act like their plane is BnZ = invincible. It's not, and I take great pleasure in killing planes that try to BnZ me. Is it crazy hard to counter? Yes. Will most players have no idea what the counters are? Yes. Will you get killed a number of times, even if doing everything right to counter BnZ? Yes. Are you invincible in a properly done BnZ run? No. [/spoiler]

Edited June 12, 2014 by starkwolf

[Guest]

2) Snapshot maneuvering

Essentially, this strategy turns a diving attack by one plane into a head-on pass, by climbing at the right moment.

So you roll dice with favour on enemy side by free choice? Every head-on is 50:50, but odds are against you, if you time this wrong or miss the shot... Would not be better to simply turn into him without forcing a head-on and roll around enemy and try to get shot on his back as he tries to climb without stalling yourself out?