Tiger driver's vision port in detail

[flying_brick 104]

(I am talking about the case in which the visor panels are not completely shut but the slit is still open to a certain degree. In battle a blind tank is a dead tank so maybe they would still keep all observation devices in use.)

 

Yes, not the entire 76.2 mm shell, or even a subcaliber shot, but just metal fragments either from the shell itself or the armor.

 

Hardened steel shells could also shatter and the fragments would propagate roughly along the initial trajectory if it would hit a small gap in armor, right ? They wouldn't have the same speed or energy as the intact shell, but there would still be fast moving, hot shards of metal that can disable the human sitting behind the visor.

 

The metal stream from a HEAT shell wouldn't have problems flowing through the small tunnel of the visor. Again, a fast moving stream of molten metal wouldn't consider the driver's head as a serious obstacle, would it ?

[Renamed18108 5,214]

What would happen if a shell directly hit the centre of that view port? Would it just bounce off or would the round fragment and then the piece which didn't hit the steel go through the glass?

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

(I am talking about the case in which the visor panels are not completely shut but the slit is still open to a certain degree. In battle a blind tank is a dead tank so maybe they would still keep all observation devices in use.)

 

 

 

Tiger had to stand still in order to fire accurately, like most of the world war 2 tanks.

 

The commander then picks the targets and the gunner aims for them with the TZF 9b...

...what use is a driver peering through his vision block in this situation? Also he had 2 periscopes to look through which were mounted in his hatch.

 

The driver has done job in this situation, he drove the Tiger to the point from which the Tiger could engage the enemy.

 

Now the commander, gunner, loader /and radio operator) do their job....

 

:dntknw:

 

Otto Carius about observation:

 

Tank commanders who slam their

hatches shut at the beginning of an attack and don't open them again

until the objective has been reached are useless, or at least second rate.

 

There are, of course, six to eight vision blocks mounted in a circle in

every cupola that allow observation. But they are only good for a certain

sector of the terrain, limited by the size of the individual vision block. If

the commander is looking through the left vision block when an antitank

gun opens fire from the right, then he will need a long time before

he identifies it from inside the buttoned-up tank.

 

Unfortunately, impacting rounds are felt before the sound of the

enemy gun's report, because the speed of the round is greater than the

speed of sound. Therefore, a tank commander's eyes are more important

than his ears. As a result of rounds exploding in the vicinity, one

doesn't hear the gun's report at all in the tank. It is quite different whenever

the tank commander raises his head occasionally in an open hatch

to survey the terrain. If he happens to look halfway to the left while an

enemy antitank gun opens fire halfway to the right, his eye will subconsciously

catch the shimmer of the yellow muzzle flash. His attention will

immediately be directed toward the new direction and the target will

usually be identified in time. Everything depends on the prompt identification

of a dangerous target. Usually, seconds decide. What I said above

also applies to tanks that have been equipped with a periscope.

 

The destruction of an antitank gun was often accepted as nothing

special by lay people and soldiers from other branches. Only the destruction

of other tanks counted as a success. On the other hand, antitank

guns counted twice as much to the experienced tanker. They were much

more dangerous to us. The antitank cannon waited in ambush, well camouflaged,

and magnificently set up in the terrain. Because of that, it was

very difficult to identify. It was also very difficult to hit because of its low

height. Usually, we didn 't make out the antitank guns until they had

fired the first shot. We were often hit right away, if the antitank crew was

on top of things, because we had run into a wall of antitank guns. It was

then advisable to keep as cool as possible and take care of the enemy,

before the second aimed shot was fired.

 

No one can deny that the many casualties among the officers and

other tank commanders were due to exposing their heads. But these

men didn't die in vain. If they had moved with closed hatches, then many

more men would have found their death or been severely wounded

inside the tanks. The large Russian tank losses is proof of the correctness

 

 

"Dude, we got vision blocks in da cupola ya know?"

Edited May 21, 2014 by Trommelfeuer

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

 

What would happen if a shell directly hit the centre of that view port? Would it just bounce off or would the round fragment and then the piece which didn't hit the steel go through the glass?

 

Hardened steel shells could also shatter and the fragments would propagate roughly along the initial trajectory if it would hit a small gap in armor, right ? They wouldn't have the same speed or energy as the intact shell, but there would still be fast moving, hot shards of metal that can disable the human sitting behind the visor.

 

The metal stream from a HEAT shell wouldn't have problems flowing through the small tunnel of the visor. Again, a fast moving stream of molten metal wouldn't consider the driver's head as a serious obstacle, would it ?

 

80mm solid steel armor shield + 70mm armored glass vision block.

 

A big enough explosion DIRECTLY on that TINY gap might do some damage in the interior....

 

But it certainly wouldn't just fly through it all to detonate the ammo behind the driver (every time you hit ANY part of this):

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2014 by Trommelfeuer

[Armoredbeercan 2,808]

the only question i have is , wouldn't this diver's port @ 80mm thick be weaker than a solid 80mm piece of steel of the same composition? i ask because it is a multi-piece  device and is built over a hole in the front plate.

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

Even if 80mm armor in front of 70mm armored glass was weaker than  the 102mm hull armor around it, which I doubt, we would still have a different weakspot ingame.

(maybe 2 hits would be enough on that spot, should be pretty hard to hit though, especialy at range) 

 

Blue square: current weakspot

Green square: maybe a weakspot

 

The holes to the left and right were plugged with this:

 

This is one of the side covers (with its original primer and ivory paint).

The long tab extends through a hole and into the tank. The cover is also keyed into a recess in the armour, 10mm deep.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Trommelfeuer

[Riki81 245]

What would happen if a shell directly hit the centre of that view port? Would it just bounce off or would the round fragment and then the piece which didn't hit the steel go through the glass?

 

Between the driver and the outside there is a block 70mmx240mmx94mm of laminated glass I highly doubt that shrapnel could penetrate that, they could crack the glass and blind the driver though.

 

 

Oh, so that's how it is...

 

I find it interesting to know because of this vid

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynaptcHCsg[/media]

 

at 0.55 the Panther Commander was transmitting while kicking the driver and I find it funny...

 

That’s not the driver that’s the gunner, however they do it in the third episode if i recall correctly

Edited May 21, 2014 by Riki81

[Armoredbeercan 2,808]

No one is saying 80mm of armor is weak. I'm simply guessing that all those holes and individual pieces make the structural integrity of the view port weaker than , say the same 102mm plate that has no holes and is one piece. (Btw I liked the pictures and info about the hatch as I didn't know much about it before.

[TT33a 5,404]

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

 

Excellent, thx a lot!   :good: 

 

Here's an interesting photo:

 

Looks like a 76mm AP hit directly above the visor of the Tiger in front, visor is closed.

 

The Tiger behind it has it's visor open.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Trommelfeuer

[Vaserus 362]

I bet the driver had a few choice words to say when that round impacted.. :P

[IsaakRiv94 5,260]

You were not watching closely. Cpt. Miller is wounded and doesn't really give a xxxx** anymore so he just shoots his side-arm at the Tiger in defiance. You can actually see the first two shots glancing off the frontal armor of the tank. The Tiger explosion is synchronised with Cpt. Miller shooting for the dramatic effect, when in fact the tank had been destroyed by an air bomb dropped from the allied planes that arrive on scene just in time in a classical "Cavalry charge to save the day" moment. 

 

 

 

No i mean the part when they are clearing the first Tiger ,he shoots his Thompson through the drivers hatch and kill the driver,then they open the commanders cuppola(which i think it was not possible) 

[IsaakRiv94 5,260]

Could the commanders cuppola of the Tiger be oppened from the outside if locked ?

[Blackart 4,984]

No i mean the part when they are clearing the first Tiger ,he shoots his Thompson through the drivers hatch and kill the driver,then they open the commanders cuppola(which i think it was not possible) 

 

I doubt it was possible to shoot through driver hatch and open the cupola from outside.

[NeoZe 2,268]

Guess we all know, the tiger is killed much to easy!

 

Its totaly overtiered, most times you get oneshotted by enemie t-34 85 Frontal at 1500meters and more.

The Point is, heavy tanks can spawn only ONCE per battle, t-34 85 has 2 spawns and can spam the pathetic op Arty...

 

I remember the FIRST release of the tiger in closed beta, where the matchmaking was damn nice! Frontaly it was not to penetrate, if youve used sidescraping and ageling your tank.

Had many rounds, where ive got 30-40 times hit! Thats how it should be!!

Now every enemie is Shooting through your frontal turret armor and the tanks instantly blows up!

The tiger is one big weakspot at the current stage!

 

The 88 is such a nice gun, but on the other Hand, soviet guns are same accurate, this Needs to be changed!

I like the way KV1 and KV2 are progressing, they are very hard to penetrate in good Hands, feels like theyre in a good shape atm.

The tiger is totaly overtiered and it Needs more realistic enemies, not ONLY tiger-killing machines! (t-34 85, SU152, IS-1)

 

Btw, very nice Infos about the Drivers hatch etc!

Iam building many tank models myself, have tonns of books and i can confirm, the Germans added lots of additional armor parts for there tanks-weakspotts!

[lalucre 19]

Excellent, thx a lot!   :good: 

 

Here's an interesting photo:

 

Looks like a 76mm AP hit directly above the visor of the Tiger in front, visor is closed.

 

The Tiger behind it has it's visor open.

 

wow, this is an impressive picture. If I am not mistaken, you can see different battle damage on the fron Tiger. Aside from the driver's viewport, there also seems to be a non pentrating hit on the far left side of the gun mantlet. And the sloped upper glacis , in the front of the mg port, could also have taken a hit. These things really tell a story just by themselves.

 

On the other hand, you see towing cables being fixed to all the tanks in the column. Did they get stuck? How was the maneuverability with the Tiger?

[NeoZe 2,268]

Mud always was a big Problem for Tigers and Panthers, due there complex wheel-System! It was even worse, if the mud between the wheels was getting frozen!

Also, Tigers and Panthers had lots of Problems with there Transmission-System in early production periods.

 

Ostketten where invented even for Pz4 and Pz3s to make tanks more agile in the deep-soviet mud and the snow-conditions.

What you see in the Picture is just somethin very smart, to use the combined force of several tanks to get easier trough the mud, doesnt mean the tigers werent abelt to handle it themself.

 

2 Tigers where needed to tow ONE tiger and the 2 pushing tigers received engine and Transmission damage after this Action, because they wherent able to carry more then there own weight without damaging themself, even if 2 where involved to tow another tiger.

Thats why they avoided situations as much as possible to tow a tiger with other tigers!!!

Edited May 22, 2014 by NeoZe

[TT33a 5,404]

No i mean the part when they are clearing the first Tiger ,he shoots his Thompson through the drivers hatch and kill the driver, then they open the commanders cuppola(which i think it was not possible)

 
Ridiculous fantasy propaganda. IF somehow the thompson guy made it past the coaxial MG, ball mount MG, pistol ports, and the Nahverteidigungswaffe close defense weapon without dying, then he would have been faced with Panzerglas in the view slits and locked doors on the tank hatches:

 
 
http://www.custermen.net/nahvert/nah.htm

Edited May 22, 2014 by TT33a

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

wow, this is an impressive picture. If I am not mistaken, you can see different battle damage on the fron Tiger. Aside from the driver's viewport, there also seems to be a non pentrating hit on the far left side of the gun mantlet. And the sloped upper glacis , in the front of the mg port, could also have taken a hit. These things really tell a story just by themselves.

 

 

This is also pretty impressive, look at the holes in that front plate!

And I see at least 4 hits on the armor shield of the driver's visor:

 

 

 

Seems it got shot up quite a bit at Kursk and was repaired afterwards:

 

 

 

Repair plates:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

http://www.tiif.de/print.php?threadid=53&page=4&sid=beb15577c3cb90e5082de4c7d182cf6b

[BrockvsTV 120]

well he are a few shots that were close, one actually on the bow gunner, I don't know though what was actually taking shoots at it, Can't find any specific details 

[mixerria 798]

well he are a few shots that were close, one actually on the bow gunner, I don't know though what was actually taking shoots at it, Can't find any specific details 

looks like 7,62cm, I'd say.

 

But that shot to the mg port shows that it is indeed not weak.

[letherneck 2,067]

well he are a few shots that were close, one actually on the bow gunner, I don't know though what was actually taking shoots at it, Can't find any specific details 

looks like 75/76mm ap, not sure what type of ap it would have been though.

[TT33a 5,404]

This picture states schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 101 and anti-tank guns:

Edited May 22, 2014 by TT33a

[_waldbiene_ 14,632]

This Tiger driver inspects the damage of his armored shield after a hit.

 

(note: the Tiger driver is alive and the Tiger hasn't exploded)

 

:P

Edited May 22, 2014 by Trommelfeuer

[IsaakRiv94 5,260]

Gaijin needs to remake the damage model of the Tiger,