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Panzerkampfwagen VII Schwerer Löwe as a German tier V 7.3-7.0 heavy in the main tree or a 6.7 tier IV premium


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I took the time to update the information for this tank and I would like to make some clarifications. There were 6 designs for the Löwe, This suggestion is for the Schwerer(23April42). The Schwerer features the 10.5 cm L/70 which is similar to the current 10.5 cm L/68 in the game, a massive gun mantlet that is really thick and that covers a lot of the turret face and when combined with the steeply angled turret front leads to an armour effectiveness similar to the T29 or T32, which offers the hull down position to be very effective in this tank.

 

Why this tank:

By all means I'm not suggesting this tank over the E-75 I think we need both and  Löwe Schwerer fits in better at a BR of 7.3 and that leaves the 7.7 spot to the E-75 which fits that spot well. When it comes to late tier heavy's for WW2 tanks these are the last 2 for Germany so we need both and for those of you who say we still have the 15cm E-100 we do but that's a 8.0 we need a 7.3 and 7.7. Also the tank will not be based solely off of what I found Gaijin has amour experts for this kind of stuff I even messaged one to help me prove the 10.5 cm L/70 was real which he helped me prove so the tank will be as historical correct as can be.

 

History:

The VK70.01 project started on November 1st, 1941, when specifications were given for a tank of 70 tons, with 140 mm (5.5 in) thick frontal armor and 100 mm (3.94 in) thick side armor. A 1000hp Diamler-Benz Schnellbootsmotor from an E-boat would propel the tank up to 43.6 km/h (27.1 mph). The crew layout was standard for German tanks; Driver and Radio Operator in the hull, Gunner, Loader, and Commander in the turret. Krupp, which had lost out on the Panther program, was ordered on December 17th, 1941 to develop this new tank, not exceeding 90 tons. On January 21st, 1942, Krupp revealed their design, armed with a 10,5cm KwK L/70 cannon. At this point, the engine was changed to Maybach’s new 800hp HL 230.

In February 1942 Wa.Pruef.6 ordered two tanks (one with a turret, one with a test weight) of 72 tons to be built and for series production to begin as soon as possible. These tanks were to be 72 tons as the railcars used for the Tiger could carry this amount of weight. They would share the Tiger’s drive train and armor layout as well (100mm at the front, 80mm at the sides).

In April 1942 the VK70.01 name was dropped and the tank was simple called “Panzerkampfwagen Löwe”. If the dev's don't think this tank is needed in the main tree then at least add it as a tier IV premium with a 6.7-7.0 BR. 

QhSHS.jpg

Designevolution_zps5ae23727.jpg

Lowe-1_zpsab8e0da4.jpg

lowe1.png

 

The development of super heavy tank started as early as 1941, when Krupp started the studies of super heavy Soviet tanks.

In November of 1941, it was specified that the new heavy tank was to have 140mm front and 100mm thick side armor. The vehicle was to be operated by 5 men crew – 3 in the turret and 2 in the hull. This new panzer was to have maximum speed of some 44km/h being powered by 1000hp Daimler-Benz marine engine used in Schnellboot (torpedo boat). The main armament was to be mounted in the turret. The weight was to be up 90 tons

 

 lowe.jpgMVNf5xp.png

In late 1942, this project was cancelled in favor of the development of the Maus. During the development of Tiger II , designers planned to build redesigned version of Löwe (as suggested by Oberst Fichtner), which would be armed with 88mm KwK L/71 gun and its frontal armor protection would be 140mm (as planned before). Redesigned Löwe would be able to travel at maximum speed of 35km/h and it would weight 90 tons. It was to be powered by Maybach HL 230 P 30, 12-cylinder engine producing 800hp. Löwe would be 7.74 meters long (with the gun), 3.83 meters wide and 3.08 meters high. Löwe would be operated by the crew of five. It was planned that Löwe would eventually replace Tiger II.From February to May of 1942, six different designs were considered, all based on the requirements for Löwe. On March 5/6th of 1942, order for heavier tank was placed and project Löwe was stopped in July of 1942.

 

Panzer-VII_Lowe.png

 

New information:

Quote

19693718_1050159935118416_2403365509618019884170_1050159955118414_6143256633728519656945_1050159921785084_5775615218657119665372_1050159865118423_9177223646903519748816_1050159861785090_8592026951026719787074_1050159841785092_1413520404157819756587_1050159845118425_10714630862710

Löwe how it may have appeared in service in 1945

 

Löwe Schwerer specifications(23April42):

Total length 11670mm

Chassis length 7450mm

Total width 3830(4030) mm

Total height 3085mm

Firing height 2495mm

Track width 900(1000) mm 

Wheel base 2930(3030) mm

Track contact 4960mm

Ground pressure 1(0.9) kg/cm2

Ground clearance 500mm

Total weight, battle ready 90 tons

Armament 10.5 cm L/70 with 80 rounds or 15cm L/ 40 and 1 x 7.92 mm MG34 with 2000 rounds

Elevation -8, +38  

Armor:

Hull front 120mm

Hull side 80/100mm

Hull deck 40mm

Turret front 120 mm(without gun mantel)
Turret top 40mm  

Crew and Performance: 

5 (driver, commander, gunner, loader, radio operator)

Speed 35 kp/h 

Engine 800hp Maybach HL 230

Transmission 12 EV 170

Steering L600C

Suspension: Torsion bar

Status: Paper project

 

The 105mm KwK L/70

Thanks to @KorEEnium for this information 

10.5cm KwK L/70 was supposed to have 160mm of penetration at 1000m at 30 degree angle.

8.8cm KwK 43 has 165mm of penetration at 1000m at 30 degree angle.

10.5cm KwK L/68 has 200mm of penetration at 1000m at 30 degree angle.

4Yf27KA.thumb.jpg.d6433b1ecebc5b0cde64b4

wW8fmp0.png.fc9c1044fd176c9c92bb0c2eda77

 

panzerkampfwagen_vii_lowe_15cm_l_40_1942-75301.jpg

Links and Soureces: 

Thomas L. Jentz & Hilary Doyle: Panzer Tracts No.20-1: Paper Panzers

Special Panzer Variants : Development - Production - Operations by Walter J. Spielberger and Hilary Doyle

Encyclopedia of German tanks of WW2 by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/German_what-if_armour.php

http://henk.fox3000.com/maus.htm

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-vii-lowe.htm

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/PANZERKAMPFWAGEN%20VII%20LOWE.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VII_L%C3%B6we

Edited by SAUBER_KH7
revised for clarification
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Open for discussion  :salute:

 

The Löwe is one of my favorite tank designs, however its statistics would be purely paper based. The community has a whole has mixed opinions on this kind of thing.

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Well we are going alternative history, so this sort of tank makes sense. Sorry but the German high tiers are not tanks that fought in WWII but might have beens if development had continued many years.

When we have the player numbers and nations, we can have a no prototypes option for players to press a button on. But for now most people would be happy enough playing anything German looking and balanced (yes balanced) in high tiers. 

Our community is divided on this issue but lets not just crush anyone who wants to experiment with a realistic (one day) game engine but possible tanks.

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Open for discussion  :salute:

 

The Löwe is one of my favorite tank designs, however its statistics would be purely paper based. The community has a whole has mixed opinions on this kind of thing.

I love the Löwe design myself one of my favorites as well

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Open for discussion  :salute:

 

The Löwe is one of my favorite tank designs, however its statistics would be purely paper based. The community has a whole has mixed opinions on this kind of thing.

also I know It's paper based but think of this I could find more info and sources on both types Löwe's than I could find on the E-50 and E-75 combined  

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eh, I'm not a fan of paper tanks or planes.

well then think of it like this the Maus was build and tested but is not going to be added the Löwe  would have been built but was cancelled in favor of the development of the Maus so the Löwe  is the last German made heavy tank that could be added and to all those who wanted the Maus the Löwe  could be the compromise

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Absolutely not. This is the epitome of a Paper tank that hadn't even come close to being realised before it was dropped. Heck, the P.1500 "Monster" at least had tracks built before it was cancelled. There are other games with these vehicles and if you'd like to see them in a trivialised arcade setting, then go there. They'll never be here.

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also I know It's paper based but think of this I could find more info and sources on both types Löwe's than I could find on the E-50 and E-75 combined  

 

Yeah but the problem with it, is where does it fit? It has poor armour and will get onehit by most of the large caliber guns which have more then enough to pen it.

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Yeah but the problem with it, is where does it fit? It has poor armour and will get onehit by most of the large caliber guns which have more then enough to pen it.

it fits after the tiger 2 KwK46 there armor is 140mm sloped more than enough and the PzKpfw VII (schwere) Löwe has the more powerful 105mm and the Panzerkampfwagen VII Löwe(VK7201) has the German 150mm Kanone more than enough firepower these tank were going to replace the tiger 2 as well so yes there better

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it fits after the tiger 2 KwK46 there armor is 140mm sloped more than enough and the PzKpfw VII (schwere) Löwe has the more powerful 105mm and the Panzerkampfwagen VII Löwe(VK7201) has the German 150mm Kanone more than enough firepower these tank were going to replace the tiger 2 as well so yes there better

 

The lowe mounts the kwk 46. Its not WoT, tanks don't just magically create more guns, I cannot find any info on the 105L70 ever being made.

 

As for the armour the 140mm is worse then what we already have. Sides may thicken 20mm, but 100 is still paper at rank V.

 

The issue with the tank is you have a rank V gun, and rank 4 armour, and some of the worst mobility in game.

 

As for mounting the 150mm theres no way that could fit. It takes a turret the size of a maus.

 

And there was no speculation of the lowe replacing the tiger II other then early development ideas, the Tiger III/E75 was planned to replace it, and even that never made it off the drawing board. Only the E100 chasis was built, and would most likely have had the Maus turret.

 

http://www.slideshare.net/kerryprinceuk/germanys-tiger-tanks-vk4502-to-tiger-ii-design-production-modifications#

Edited by Xyrothryu
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The lowe mounts the kwk 46. Its not WoT, tanks don't just magically create more guns, I cannot find any info on the 105L70 ever being made.

 

As for the armour the 140mm is worse then what we already have. Sides may thicken 20mm, but 100 is still paper at rank V.

 

The issue with the tank is you have a rank V gun, and rank 4 armour, and some of the worst mobility in game.

 

As for mounting the 150mm theres no way that could fit. It takes a turret the size of a maus.

 

And there was no speculation of the lowe replacing the tiger II other then early development ideas, the Tiger III/E75 was planned to replace it, and even that never made it off the drawing board. Only the E100 chasis was built, and would most likely have had the Maus turret.

 

http://www.slideshare.net/kerryprinceuk/germanys-tiger-tanks-vk4502-to-tiger-ii-design-production-modifications#

if you read my sources the KwK 46L/70 is not a made up gun and also the Panzerkampfwagen VII Löwe(VK7201) was to be armed with the 150mm Kanone L/37 (or L/40) or 105mm KwK L/70 gun and just because it only has 140mm of armor doesn't mean it's a bad and the Löwe has better mobility than the tiger. Also if you had read the Info I gave the Löwe would have replaced the tiger 2 If it wasn't cancelled in favor of the development of the Maus in 1942 so the E-75(which was thought of yet in 1942) was to take its place and would have if the war went into 1946. please read the info and know the info before you post.

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Open for discussion  :salute:

 

The Löwe is one of my favorite tank designs, however its statistics would be purely paper based. The community has a whole has mixed opinions on this kind of thing.

 

There are already 8 paper planes / tanks being added to the game

 

  • Me 262 HG II
  • Ju 287
  • PzKpfw VI KwK 46
  • Flakpanzer V Coelian
  • Ki-200
  • R2Y2 V1
  • R2Y2 V2
  • R2Y2 V3

One more isn't going to hurt

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There are already 8 paper planes / tanks being added to the game

 

  • Me 262 HG II
  • Ju 287
  • PzKpfw VI KwK 46
  • Flakpanzer V Coelian
  • Ki-200
  • R2Y2 V1
  • R2Y2 V2
  • R2Y2 V3

One more isn't going to hurt

 

The difference in planes is that any plane can shootdown and destroy any Plane. I've seen MiG-15bis' being downed by Heinkel He. 51's, and many people have signatures showing Jets being destroyed by planes like P-51D's or Ju. 87's, both on the runway and in the air.

   Tanks, however, aren't that way. A Tier I Pz. II C will not destroy an IS-4M, and conversely a T-26 will not destroy a JagdTiger or Tiger II Kw.K 46. Sure, there are some Paper tanks like the ones listed (KwK.46 Tiger or SPAAG Coelian), but they're at least based on pre-existing designs / Tanks, just with small upgrades; The Lowe is a completely different and untested design with nothing more than guesses as to how it would behave.

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The difference in planes is that any plane can shootdown and destroy any Plane. I've seen MiG-15bis' being downed by Heinkel He. 51's, and many people have signatures showing Jets being destroyed by planes like P-51D's or Ju. 87's, both on the runway and in the air.

   Tanks, however, aren't that way. A Tier I Pz. II C will not destroy an IS-4M, and conversely a T-26 will not destroy a JagdTiger or Tiger II Kw.K 46. Sure, there are some Paper tanks like the ones listed (KwK.46 Tiger or SPAAG Coelian), but they're at least based on pre-existing designs / Tanks, just with small upgrades; The Lowe is a completely different and untested design with nothing more than guesses as to how it would behave.

I'd like to have a heavy tank that was made but they only one that was, was the Maus and the Dev's said no to that tank so that just leaves the Löwe and E-75 both are paper tanks and the Maus that was made that people want the Dev's say no to it if the Dev's will add the Löwe it's better than nothing.

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I'd like to have a heavy tank that was made but they only one that was, was the Maus and the Dev's said no to that tank so that just leaves the Löwe and E-75 both are paper tanks and the Maus that was made that people want the Dev's say no to it if the Dev's will add the Löwe it's better than nothing.

 

We have Heavy Tanks, though. Most of them already have good armament and decent armour, the Tiger II Kw.K 46 having better armour and the same gun.

 

Also, what purpose would the Lowe serve, exactly? The 15cm Kanone variant would be even less likely to be added than an already confirmed not-to-be-added Maus, that leaves the 10,5cm which would practically turn it to a slower, heavier and less armoured Tiger II Kw.K 46.

 

We both know where you're getting these ideas from and honestly, if you really want them, go there. We don't need these designs here.

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We have Heavy Tanks, though. Most of them already have good armament and decent armour, the Tiger II Kw.K 46 having better armour and the same gun.

 

Also, what purpose would the Lowe serve, exactly? The 15cm Kanone variant would be even less likely to be added than an already confirmed not-to-be-added Maus, that leaves the 10,5cm which would practically turn it to a slower, heavier and less armoured Tiger II Kw.K 46.

 

We both know where you're getting these ideas from and honestly, if you really want them, go there. We don't need these designs here.

Why dose every one think I'm getting this from WOT I hate that game it's why I play war thunder and none of my sources are from there and if your implying that this is from WOT then 75% of the tanks in this game should be removed because WOT has due to your logic and the propose the tank would serve is better mobility and firepower and like the E-75 has the 1946 aspect(postwar) and whether one get's the 150mm is up to us it's up to the Dev's and if you don't what the tank you don't have to own it and please don't speak for others only yourself. (" We don't need these designs here")

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There are already 8 paper planes / tanks being added to the game
 

  • Me 262 HG II
  • Ju 287
  • PzKpfw VI KwK 46
  • Flakpanzer V Coelian
  • Ki-200
  • R2Y2 V1
  • R2Y2 V2
  • R2Y2 V3
One more isn't going to hurt
HGII: existed, destroyed on ground.
Ju-287: existed
Ki-200 existed
The first R2Y2 existed
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HGII: existed, destroyed on ground.
Ju-287: existed
Ki-200 existed
The first R2Y2 existed

 

The J8M1 existed not the Ki-200. If we don't get the very first and functional prototype of the Ju-287, my point still stands. Show me a reference that says a R2Y2 prototype was completed and finished test flights; the same goes for the 262 HG II

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The J8M1 existed not the Ki-200. If we don't get the very first and functional prototype of the Ju-287, my point still stands. Show me a reference that says a R2Y2 prototype was completed and finished test flights; the same goes for the 262 HG II

you are right we do have planes and tanks in the game that were not every made like the panther 2 and the R2Y2 but the Ki-200 was built the Ki-201 was not.

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HGII: existed, destroyed on ground.
Ju-287: existed
Ki-200 existed
The first R2Y2 existed

your right about the Ki-200 and the Ju-287 and I don't know About the HGll but your wrong about the R2Y2 the R2Y1 was build the prop version, the R2Y2 never was built. 

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