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Adding the SturmPanzer and SturmTiger with their own line in WT.


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Adding the Brummbär and Sturmmörserwagen in WarThunder
 
 
In this thread I will be covering two tanks, the SturmPanzer and SturmTiger briefly. I will also be covering how they will fit in the game with their OWN line.
 
 
This is a suggestion thread, while feedback is appreciated, please DO NOT litter it with ignorant comments and off topic dissonance-like posts. I will ask a moderator to remove them if needed.
 
SturmTiger [Sturmmörserwagen]
 
 
- What exactly is a SturmTiger? Well to give it to you short and understandable.. its a KV-2 on the strongest steroids imaginable. It's not a Tank, nor is it a Tank Destroyer. Instead it is an Assault Gun. During the second world war, German soldiers needed to successfully utilize heavily fortified locations such as bunkers and pillboxes. So the big wigs up in Germany agreed upon to make the SturmTiger series to be sent in and do their job. But you know, at the time German logic was "larger is better, speed and cost is not important!". The first set of SturmTigers were created from damaged Tiger I's from the Alkett factory during the month of August.
 
If you consider the tank's roles, it needed to have good and well rounded armour to survive. The only catch was the fact it wasnt, well, rounded whatsoever. However it was angled. Being angled at 47' angle vertically gave this tank a theoretical 150mm of armour 9some spots amounted to 100mm) in the front. The rear and sides were however only 82mm thick. The image below gives you an example of the armour levels.
 
9bg4YM2.png
 
 
But who cares about armour and all that math. What people love this thing for is that large *** gun.
 
The SturmTiger was equipped with a standardized 380mm Raketen Werder L/5,4. In short? A large rocket launching system. Sounds OP doesnt it? Well to an extent it might be, but it very much has major draw backs. The major one of course is its horrid, horrid accuracy. This thing was intended for close range shooting. Remember it wasnt supposed to fight tanks? The max range however is an estimated 6000 meters. Like the KV-2 the gun used rounds that were intended to combat reinforced concrete and other similar substances. 
 
A major draw back is the flaw in which only 14 rounds are carrier, 15 if you count the one already loaded up. Historically it needed an ammunition carrier to use more rounds, but looking at a WT view.. that isnt happening. So if this was to be implemented, make those rounds count you pubbies.
 
Taking a look at the design of the SturmTiger, its rather simple. The chassis is that of a Tiger I (later variant) without a single modification to the chassis itself. Although as you already know, it was given a box-like structure to replace the turret. It actually does in fact use the Tiger's engine, even though this thing weighs tonnes. 
 
 
Could this work in WT?
 
If it couldnt, I wouldnt be making this thread now would I? It's a long shot, but the SturmTiger has a chance, as small as it may. The tank is overpowered in terms of armaments.. but thats all there is to that. Everything about it is quite poor. One shooting enemy tanks at the cost of possibly getting one shotted by the enemy is a fair deal if you ask me.
 
 
SturmPanzer [Brummbär]
 
- Moving away from that monster of a tank the SturmTiger, we settle down with something less... extreme. Properly known as the Sturmgeschütz IV mit 15cm, the SturmPanzer was yet another creation from the Alkett manurfactoring area. Planned and designed throughout 1942, the SturmPanzer was created for the purpose of urban warfare. The tank was capable of taking out any infantry positions it may need to eliminate for the infantry to do their thing. In short doing what the SturmTiger did on a shorter scale. The tank went through quite a few different variants unlike its superior. It also went through much production for its time with a counting of 306 total number of SturmPanzers. 
 
 
 
sd_kfz_166_sturmpanzer_iv_brummbar-33633
 
 
 
The tank however was haunted by its very poor armouring. With a frontal armour of 40-100mm of frontal, 30-50 side, and 10-25 rear. The tank certainly was not made to take that many hits. On the bright side this tank had an ammo capacity of 38 shells to use. All three armaments used/planned were to carry this amount.
 
Going to the gun selection, it isnt all that bad. Both models used in WW2 were equipped with 150mm's. However Germany also planned to import the 88mm L/71 used on the JagdPanzer 4, but later reconsidered after a prototype was finished. Unlike the SturmTiger, the Panzer is very balanced out and would fit as tier 4 perfectly if I do say so myself.  
 
 
 
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Could both these tanks fit in WarThunder with their very own line? Is it even possible?
 
 
The answer is yes all the way my pubbies. Both these tanks can be fitted with predeceasing tanks that would fit the gender of this assault guns well.
 
 
Tier 1
 
Tier 2
 
Tier 3
 
Tier 4
 
Tier 5
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open for discussion

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There is lots of information and discussion of this line (for WOT) in the For the Record blog. It seems there is plenty that could be used in game for this line (and lots of other interesting vehicles - well worth Gaijin reading through the archives)

 

It would seem to be an interesting line of vehicles. Well worth exploring.

Certainly would play them if brought in.

HE mechanic would need to be spot on ofcause.

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I can understand for the Sturmpanzer, it will be a nice addition IMHO.

 

But for the Sturmtiger I disagree, it was not an anti tank vehicule, the reload was very long and the targets were most of the time bunkers and buildings.

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SturmTiger, though it resembles a Tank Destroyer, wasn't.  The below spoiler is taken from one of my Let's Talk History articles where I discussed the origins of it.

 

[spoiler] Now, I can understand the misconception people have about the vehicle itself. Its overall shape looks very much like the standard design of a tank destroyer, in particular the Jagdpanther.  Having a high casement, with gun located centrally, well it's not hard to imagine this thing firing that big gun at a tank, and obliterating the thing.  Problem is, when push comes to shove, that's all the thoughts of the Storm Tiger as a TD being, are. Imagination.

 
Here's the historical facts on the Storm Tiger, or ST was first designed just prior to the Warsaw uprising. The idea behind the vehicle actually started in the navy, with the need for a high angle mortar being fielded.  The concept itself was interesting, when you consider it, but the basics of the idea which the Kreigsmarine were looking for, was a weapon which could fire a battleship shell a long distance, at a high angle, without having to take up as much space as the average ship gun did.   
 
The answer to this lay in rocketry, and while the weapon never saw use in the navy, with the German fleet being severely trounced and forced to stay in harbor (other than a few raiders like Bismark that tried badly to escape), the project was pretty much shelved. The army took over the project, when looking for a reasonably manuverable weapon which could fire a great distance, and at the same time do a great deal of damage. The Brummbar had already entered service, and proved itself quite well when firing against fixed emplacements, but the army wanted something more. Something with more punch, and something not as constrained as the railway guns were.
 
That's where the original gun for the navy comes into the picture.  This gun was designed to fire a shell up to five kilometers away, at a very high angle, by the use of a rocket motor on the aft of the shell. Once the shell reached the apex of its flight, it would tip over, pick up speed, and penetrate into the ground before detonation.  Interestingly enough, this very same tendency is what gives modern bunker busters their punch.  In testing, the army found that the round itself, when targeted properly, could punch through a full six feet of reinforced concrete before detonation. This, compounded with the mobility achieved by placing it on a Tiger tank chassis, meant that the gun could reasonably well keep up with the armored forces it was providing support for, while at the same time did not require a great supply chain of vehicles to keep it moving as towed artillery had.
 
When the Warsaw uprising happened, the Sturmtiger came into its own.  The Germans used their new bunker buster to lob shells into the city, indiscriminately targeting any building that even LOOKED like it held rebels.  It was found through this "live fire testing" that a single shot from the Sturmtiger was enough to level a multistory building, destroying it right down to the foundation. It was also found, that if the sturmtiger missed, it really didn't matter, as the explosion alone was enough to still destroy the building. What's more, the crater left behind was reported as being between fifty and seventy-five feet wide, and up to thirty feet deep.  Needless to say, the ST performed well beyond expectations.
 
Oddly though, the ST really did not see much use in the war.  By the time that they were brought into full service, Germany was well on the retreat.  Sturmtigers were to take part in the battle of the bulge, with their assigned duty being to bombard key allied positions.  However they were slow. Very slow.  To the point that the forces they were supporting quickly outpaced the Sturmtigers.  By the time they reached the front, the battle had already been lost for the German Army.
 
The only other reported engagement with them, was at the battle in Remagen, where the Germans were attempting to destroy the bridge there and stop the allied advance.  In the days after the bridge's capture, and before its eventual destruction anyway, the German army called up as many artillery batteries they had on hand, with orders for them to destroy the bridge at all costs.  In with this element was a ST group (two vehicles reported, may have been three though) which were tasked with firing on the bridge abuntments, with the goal being to use their bunker busting rounds to destroy the bridge.  In this engagement, there is an anecdotal report, which sadly does not show up in official records, that during the bombardment, one Sturmtiger missed its intended target, and its round landed somewhere between two to three parked Sherman tanks. The explosion obliterating the vehicles.  However, this has largely been discounted, due in no small part to the fact that Allied reports of the battle do not record losing Shermans to artillery fire, but instead to aerial bombardment. Meaning that while it is plausible a ST did the damage, it's just as likely that a well aimed bomb from a dive bomber did.
 
This brings us to armament.  Looking at the ST, you might think it's firing a gun. Like I said earlier, there's rocketry involved, but to better understand things I think I should explain.
 
The Sturmtiger was armed with a short-barreled 38cm Raketenwerfer 61 L/5.4, breech-loading rocket launcher/mortar. The RW 61 launcher fired short-range (4,600 to 6,000 meters, or 2,850 to 3,720 yards, or 4.6km to 6km), or long range high-explosive rocket-propelled projectiles. The launcher was fitted with a PaK Zielfernrohr 3 x 8 telescopic sight. Each projettile was almost 1.5m (five feet) long and weighed 345 to 351kg (759 to 772 pounds). Two types of ammunition were available-high-explosive Raketen Sprenggranate 4581 (with a 125kg, or 275 pound, explosive charge) and shaped-charge Raketen Hohladungsgranate 4582 for use against fortifications. The shaped-charge round could penetrate up 2.5m (8 feet) of reinforced concrete. The Sturmtiger main armament was originally developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in Dusseldorf from a launcher developed for the Kriegsmarine.
 
The main armament could be traversed by hand 10 degrees to the left and right and elevated from 0 to a maximum of 85 degrees. The launcher produced a recoil force of 30 to 40 tons. Perhaps the most unique feature of the launcher was the way rocket exhaust gasses were vented. These gasses could not be allowed to enter the fighting compartment, and the breech was not strong enough to resist them until the rocket left the barrel, so they were channeled through ventilation shafts around the barrel with numerous exit holes surrounding the muzzle. The result was a spectacular flash when the weapon was fired. Because of this, the Sturmtiger had to move after each shot because its position was revealed to the enemy. The launcher barrel was later fitted with a steel ring as a counterweight to improve elevation and aiming. 
 
Sturmtiger could demolish any building or other target with a single shot, but it could carry only 14 rocket projectiles inside the superstructure. Twelve projectiles were stored in two stowage racks, one more in the launcher and another on the loading tray. Most vehicles carried only 13 rounds, without the one on the loading tray. The vehicle was equipped with a hand-operated lifting crane mounted on the right rear of the superstructure. This was used to load projectiles into the vehicle and needed the entire crew of five to operate. The crane could be dismantled and stored when not in use. A two-piece rectangular loading hatch was located in the superstructure roof with guide rails below it and a winch to assist in moving rounds into and out of the storage racks and onto the loading tray. The rear section of the loading hatch was hinged at the rear and incorporated a 90mm NbK 39 Nahverteidigungswaffe, which was a breech-loading grenade launcher for close-in defense. This weapon had a 360-degree traverse and was intended for use in all late-war tanks, replacing exter-nally-mounted smoke dischargers and grenade launchers. The round hatch in the rear wall of the superstructure provided crew entry and exit. 
 
 
Now we get to the meat of it. The TLDR for those who can't be arsed to learn a little.
 
The Sturmtiger was designed as a self propelled mortar, with a minimum range of 4km, and a maximum range of 6km. It wasn't a tank destroyer, but instead artillery.  Please please please stop suggesting this as a German tank destroyer.
 
Note: The report on detail says 8 feet of concrete, however most sources put it at six.[/spoiler]
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I can understand for the Sturmpanzer, it will be a nice addition IMHO.

 

But for the Sturmtiger I disagree, it was not an anti tank vehicule, the reload was very long and the targets were most of the time bunkers and buildings.

It's targets were only ever bunkers or fixed positions.  The minimum range (IE the shortest the gun could engage at) was roughly one mile.  Anything below that, the projectile (which was a rocket) wouldn't have time to activate its motor properly and just drive the shot into the dirt.

 

Edit:  To the person, who shall not be named, who PM'd me saying that the Sturmtiger looks like it should work like a tank destroyer, and cited the three shermans taken out with one unconfirmed shot. First, I point you to the spoiler in my above reply.  Secondly, I offer this analogy:

 

Gasoline and Apple Juice look the same, but that doesn't mean that you can drink gas, or make your car run off of apple juice.

Edited by _Katyusha_
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I can understand for the Sturmpanzer, it will be a nice addition IMHO.

 

But for the Sturmtiger I disagree, it was not an anti tank vehicule, the reload was very long and the targets were most of the time bunkers and buildings.

 

Nor was your precious KV-2. However it was and is capable of fitting in-game as a TD even thought it was a Heavy Assault Gun. You see this with the SU-152 since it is not a TD, but an SPG. Same can go for the SturmTiger. It's very balanced in fact. 

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SturmTiger, though it resembles a Tank Destroyer, wasn't.  The below spoiler is taken from one of my Let's Talk History articles where I discussed the origins of it.

Nobody said that it was, IIRC.  Fundamentally, once they've sorted their shit out about ground forces battles then pillboxes and other fixed -- and possibly hardened -- positions are going to have to be brought in as a big factor.

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It's targets were only ever bunkers or fixed positions.  The minimum range (IE the shortest the gun could engage at) was roughly one mile.  Anything below that, the projectile (which was a rocket) wouldn't have time to activate its motor properly and just drive the shot into the dirt.

 

Edit:  To the person, who shall not be named, who PM'd me saying that the Sturmtiger looks like it should work like a tank destroyer, and cited the three shermans taken out with one unconfirmed shot. First, I point you to the spoiler in my above reply.  Secondly, I offer this analogy:

 

Gasoline and Apple Juice look the same, but that doesn't mean that you can drink gas, or make your car run off of apple juice.

 

I agree with you on the first part. But take a short look at the KV-2, which was not made and designed to combat tanks. While the Sturm uses a vastly different shell (It was a rocket for christ sakes), it still is viable being in the Tank Destroyer tree. People are taking the TD lines too seriously. Assault Guns and SPG's alike both fit in the TD branch of tanks.

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Nobody said that it was, IIRC.  Fundamentally, once they've sorted their floral out about ground forces battles then pillboxes and other fixed -- and possibly hardened -- positions are going to have to be brought in as a big factor.

 

He said someone PM'ed him, which is what he was talking about I believe. 

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SturmTiger would be a nice era V. Defiantly would be more capable against T-54s and IS-4s than the Jagdtiger when that round hits  :lol:

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SturmTiger would be a nice era V. Defiantly would be more capable against T-54s and IS-4s than the Jagdtiger when that round hits  :lol:

 

One shot kills in exchange for being one shot killed is quite fair, dont you think?

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I agree with you on the first part. But take a short look at the KV-2, which was not made and designed to combat tanks. While the Sturm uses a vastly different shell (It was a rocket for christ sakes), it still is viable being in the Tank Destroyer tree. People are taking the TD lines too seriously. Assault Guns and SPG's alike both fit in the TD branch of tanks.

Eh, I'm an Imperial Japanese fan, they never bothered with a separate classification for TDs and SPGs, I'm used to thinking of 'em all that way.

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First they need to introduce fortifications of any kind to WTGF

well you have the castle lol..

 

blow that thing up and the enemy team has no cover anymore XD

 

 

 

ontopic: yes, YES!

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I support this! Sturmtiger and sturmpanzer will act as excellent anti-bunker/building tank as we get full destructible environments added. Also Sturmtiger could compete with T-54s and IS-4s, as its rocket charge is insanely powerful, assuming if it can hit that tank accordingly. 

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I support this! Sturmtiger and sturmpanzer will act as excellent anti-bunker/building tank as we get full destructible environments added. Also Sturmtiger could compete with T-54s and IS-4s, as its rocket charge is insanely powerful, assuming if it can hit that tank accordingly. 

 

It doesnt need to hit "accordingly". Anything in the blast radius is pretty much fried. 

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I support this. Always thought it would be a fitting addition to WT because of the much more open space and potential for fortifications and whatnot.

And remember, to all those who would say this tank would be terrible because of the long reload, i quote one of the developers (not ad verbatim but you get the idea) "reload times for tanks are actually one of the few parameters we can change for balancing purposes in this game". Edited by XxMockingBirdxX
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