Tanks/Vehicles M47 Patton (II) as replacement for Panther II

[teo_storm1 640]

The M47.

image via tanks-encyclopaedia

 

EDIT: The post is intended to give an alternative option to the Panther II and not to fully replace it. Thus Ignore the Title and use the previous sentence as the gist of the idea.

 

Some quick background:

The M47 was introduced as a stopgap measure until the M48 Patton was introduced. This stop gap is a combination of a modified M46 hull and a T42 turret, armed with a 90mm M36 gun. Production schedule was to start in June 1951 and was standardised in May 1952. The name Patton II was used commonly to distinguish the M47 from the M46. The vehicle was supplied to the West German army with 1120 vehicles provided. 

Technical data:

Crew (5):

• Commander: turret right rear
• Gunner: right turret front
• Loader: left turret rear
• Driver: left front hull
• Assistant Driver: right hull front

Armour (hull), rolled and cast homogenous steel, welded, values as follows:

• Upper Glacis plate - 100mm at 60°, effective armour value - 200mm
• Lower Glacis plate - 89mm to 76mm at 53°, effective armour values - 147.8mm and 126.2mm respectively
• Front Sides - 76mm at 0°
• Rear Sides - 51mm at 0°
• Upper Rear - 51mm at 0°
• Lower Rear - 20mm at 62°, effective armour value - 42.6mm
• Top - 22mm at 90°
• Front Floor - 25mm at 90°
• Rear Floor - 13mm at 90°

Armour (turret), cast homogenous steel, some welded, values as follows:

• Gun Shield - 110mm at 60°, effective armour value - 220mm
• Turret Front - 100mm at 40°, effective armour value - 130,5mm
• Turret Sides - 64mm at 30°, effective armour value - 73.9mm
• Turret Rear - 76mm at 3°, effective armour value - 76.1mm
• Turret Top - 25mm at 90°

Combat Mass: 46.17 metric tonnes.

Engine: Net: 704hp, Gross: 810hp with 15.28hp/t and 17.54hp/t respectively.

Max Road Speed: 48km/h

Turning Circle: Can Pivot

Fording: 1.2m

Weaponry:

• 90mm M36 Gun in M78 turret mount: 71 rounds
• .50cal (12.7mm) M2HB in AA turret mount: 1700 rounds
• .30cal (7.62mm) M1919A4E1 Co-ax turret mount: 11150 rounds
• .30cal (7.62mm) M1919A4E1 Right hull bow ball mount: 11150 rounds

Main Gun and turret Handling Characteristics:

• 90mm: 360° Traverse (manual or electro-hydraulic), 24°/sec, +19° to -10° elevation and depression (manual or electro-hydraulic), 4°/sec max elevation rate
• 90mm gun fires: H.V. A.P.-T (High velocity armour piercing tracer): A.P.-T: A.P.C.-T (Armour piercing composite tracer)
• HVAP-T at 1021.8m/s: AP-T at 853.44m/s: APC-T at 853.44m/s
• Detailed characteristics from report detailing firing at Panther: http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/90-mm-ammunition/

Optics:

• Infrared M19 for Driver
• Stereoscopic M12 rangefinder

So now that I've exhausted the useful information regarding technical details I'll give some reasoning as to why this change would be beneficial to the German tank tree as a Rank V rather than the Panther II. I'll do this via the pros and cons of the vehicle rather than a set of drawn out paragraphs.

Pros:

• Actually existed, serially produced, was in service (refer above)
• Much more historical, correct and direct counterpart to T-54
• Lower, smaller target (disregarding the AA MG, that doesn't poke too much however)
• Gun is sufficient
• Armour is similar if almost better on the front hull and turret
• Turret is a significantly smaller target from the front
• Weighs a bit less
• Gun mantlet is much better armour wise and protection wise
• More ammunition
• Better gun elevation and depression
• More engine power (Gross)
• Could be a simple copy and paste with the introduction of the US tank line, specifics unknown so this is stretching it a bit

Cons:

• Not as fast (48km/h to the apparent 60km/h of the Panther II)
• Could have to be modelled completely from scratch (likely not however)
• May be of similar height with the AA MG
• Similar MG hull port weakspot

As far as the comparison is concerned and the Pros and Cons taken into account the M47 has advantages mostly in the size, battle time (more ammunition) and possibly the armour departments all making for a compelling argument to provide an alternative to or merge the Panther II into the Panther F (which is not only historical but more correct). With the introduction of the US ground forces branch as well then the vehicle could rapidly and simply replace the Panther II and this would also be the most reasonable pursuit in proper vehicle vs. vehicle combat balance (even though the M47 and T-54 never fought).

As for the Panther II it should simply be lowered and renamed to the Panther F, with a naming device such as that on the Tiger II Ausf.B mit KwK 46 (excuse the laziness with the proper naming). The original Panther F would still retain its name while the lower ranked one would be something along the lines of 'Panzer V Ausf.F mit KwK 43.

Gameplay wise the vehicle would perform much better presumably and while it would create another 'clone' the competition would be more balanced.

 

EDIT: From various discourse:

• The M47 would be below the newly named Panzer V Ausf.F mit KwK 40.
• The M47 would have to have the same BR, Required RP, efficient progress from the usual Panther F, price, Reward, RP bonus, crew train cost, free repairs, max repair cost and free repairs time.
• The following progression tree: 
• The following Stat card: 

 

Sources

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m47patton.html      For all things American Tanks

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/US/M47_Patton.php     History/Background and Production numbers, also the picture.

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/90-mm-ammunition/       Ammunition characteristics and performances.

Edited November 17, 2014 by teo_storm1

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

Open for discussion  :salute: 

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

So, I suppose my two comments would be:

The USMC and US Army didn't even get theirs until 1952; and they were in Korea then. I'm not sure how Germany would have gotten anything by 1953. Most all of the "Description" pictures i've seen label dates as late 50's and into the 60's. 

 

This is a picture from 1956/1957. [Spoiler]

[/Spoiler]

My next comment would be that it seems you have an adequate GERMAN tank, to fit into the GERMAN  armed forces. 

 

 

My third and final comment would be that if it's added, the MM needs to be FIXED, so that it's not like the Canadair Sabre. (A US plane built by the land of maple syrup, marketed to the tea drinkers across the pond and bestowed to the Germans, still it's an allied plane.)

Edited November 5, 2014 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Borotovas 4,500]

So you want to replace a domestic Third Reich built tank with an American tank? Nope. Never.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

So you want to replace a domestic Third Reich built tank with an American tank? Nope. Never.

 

My thoughts almost exactly.

[Thorthemigthy 347]

Panther II was never built. Um so nope as far as I know it never saw the production line.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Panther II was never built. Um so nope as far as I know it never saw the production line.

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

[Thorthemigthy 347]

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

Oh thanks but it was just a prototype never saw action right? But I do love the idea of the M-47 Patton (II) at least it would give Germany a decent tank to battle the up coming M103s, and the T-54s, T-44s, and IS-4Ms, and IS-3s.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Oh thanks but it was just a prototype never saw action right? But I do love the idea of the M-47 Patton (II) at least it would give Germany a decent tank to battle the up coming M103s, and the T-54s, T-44s, and IS-4Ms, and IS-3s.

 

Well, there was an E-100 Chassis as well. That was captured by the brits and I believe, was eventually scrapped. (So yes, neither saw combat.)

 

The M47 would only really have a chance at a M103 if it was shooting into it's arse. I believe from the front, the upper plate is ~260 effective, and the lower is ~180 effective. And the M103 would blow the M47 in half.

 

(So, you know the PaK-44, right? The M58 (The M103's gun) produced about 10% more power, and had HEAT good for 13" armor at 30 deg.)

Edited November 5, 2014 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Retry 7,363]

Though I wouldn't replace the Panther II...

So you want to replace a domestic Third Reich built tank with an American tank? Nope. Never.

*half* of a domestic Third Reich built tank.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Though I wouldn't replace the Panther II...

*half* of a domestic Third Reich built tank.

 

Half of a domestic tank is more or less than a tank imported to Germany that had absolutely no German influence?

 

 

Besides that, it would just add more doubles to WT. I think that if you want to play an M47, you should play the USA.

[Retry 7,363]

Half of a domestic tank is more or less than a tank imported to Germany that had absolutely no German influence?

 

 

Besides that, it would just add more doubles to WT. I think that if you want to play an M47, you should play the USA.

*Exported to germany*

 

Germany received over a thousand M47 Pattons.  They'll fill in for West Germany T5, as the Canadair did in the aviation branch.  Germany will also probably get a T-54 of some sort for East Germany.

 

Germany created a little under one Panther II.  It's significance is just about nil in comparison to this import.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

*Exported to germany*

 

Germany received over a thousand M47 Pattons.  They'll fill in for West Germany T5, as the Canadair did in the aviation branch.  Germany will also probably get a T-54 of some sort for East Germany.

 

Germany created a little under one Panther II.  It's significance is just about nil in comparison to this import.

 

Depends on where you're from. If you're from the USA, it's an export, if you're from anywhere else it's an import. Speaking from a German players point of view, it would be imported into Germany from the USA.

 

So what Germany received a thousand or so of them? Doesn't really justify them getting it if it's out of the time line. Even debating performance characteristics isn't really justifying it, otherwise you'd get all of the turboprop planes and say that they're justified because their performance is generally less than that of jets.

 

So I agree that the M47 had a large impact on the Bundeswehr, but It's just like... c'mon. Perhaps the way to do it is the following:

 

You get to the top of the German line of whatevers (Panthers? or other tanks?), and as you reach the final tank (Panther II?) it unlocks the M47 in the american tree, and you can grind it out with German tanks... That way I don't have to worry about some sort of BS match-making that ends up putting entire teams of pattons against entire teams of pattons. At the same time, it won't make the M47 an "end game" vehicle for Germany, and therefore would not have to make it Br 9.9 million. 

 

 

Maybe that was confusing... I'll sort my ideas here in a minute.

[Murkser 1,539]

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

lolwut no. Panther 2 in the game is complete work of fiction, and I will tell you why it is.

 

1. Only the hull was completed.
2. That hull never mounted the "Schmallturm", and was never supposed to mount it.
3. The "Schmallturm" can't physically fit the 88mm KwK 43 L/71.
4. The Panther 2 project was disbanded, so the Panther 2 would have never been made, nor used in service.

To conclude, you either have a actual real tank that was used, and physically possible (M47) or a complete work of fiction that would have never existed, nor could it, physically (Panther 2).

Edited November 5, 2014 by Volksjaeger_

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

lolwut no. Panther 2 in the game is complete work of fiction, and I will tell you why it is.

 

1. Only the hull was completed.
2. That hull never mounted the "Schmallturm", and was never supposed to mount it.
3. The "Schmallturm" can't physically fit the 88mm KwK 43 L/71.
4. The Panther 2 project was disbanded, so the Panther 2 would have never been made, nor used in service.

To conclude, you either have a actual real tank that was used, and physically possible (M47) or a complete work of fiction that would have never existed, nor could it, physically (Panther 2).

 

Did you read the comment I replied to, and then read my comment?

 

Panther II was never built.

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

 

 

So the "corrected" sentence would read: "[The] Panther II was never completed".

 

Part of the Panther II was built, HOWEVER, it was not completed. 

[Murkser 1,539]

Did you read the comment I replied to, and then read my comment?

 

 

 

 

So the "corrected" sentence would read: "[The] Panther II was never completed".

 

Part of the Panther II was built, HOWEVER, it was not completed. 

Did you read my comment?

 

lolwut no. Panther 2 in the game is complete work of fiction, and I will tell you why it is.

It is complete work of fiction. The only semi-historical part about it, is the hull.

 

 

 

Panther II was never built. Um so nope as far as I know it never saw the production line.

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

The hull was completed, not the Panther 2. I could just aswell say that the E-100 was built, just because the hull was made.

 

Correction: Never finished.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Did you read my comment?

Correction: Never finished.

 

Yes I read your comment; I was never talking to you or arguing with you about whether it was fictional or not.  I was making a statement that it was never completed, whereas you're arguing with me whether it's fictional in game or not. 

 

Here, let me spell out what i'm thinking for you, just so you can be sure that we're on the same page:

 

Yes, the Panther II in game is fictional.

No, The Panther II was not completed. It only got built up to the chassis/hull before the USA captured it.  (Or, in your terms "Never finished".)

 

 

At the same time, the team at Gaijin Ent. has put in so much work to the tank that they will not simply throw it in the garbage. The best you could hope for is that they add the Patton in somewhere. My general concern, and more or less the reason why I am saying I do not like the idea is for the same reason as what happened to the CL-13. Basically what ended up happening was US tech shuffled hands('Murca! --> Maple Syrup --> Tea drinkers --> Germany) several times on the same side of the fence (They're ALL allies), and the finished product ended up on the other side of the fence, fighting its creators. The LAST thing I want is rerun 2.0 and have more US tech fighting US tech, especially because they're supposed to be fighting for the same side!

 

 

So: IF the Patton fights for the right side, I don't care. Have as many pattons as you please. If not (And it just turns into nonstop M47 Patton Vs. M47 Patton), Germany can keep their grubby hands off of the Pattons :|

[Murkser 1,539]

Yes I read your comment; I was never talking to you or arguing with you about whether it was fictional or not.  I was making a statement that it was never completed, whereas you're arguing with me whether it's fictional in game or not. 

No you clearly did not read my comment, neither did you read your own. I'll make this as simple as possible, so you can understand it.

 

 

Panther II was never built. Um so nope as far as I know it never saw the production line.

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

Thorthemighty is completely right. The Panther 2, was never built. You correcting him is wrong.

 

Correction: Completed. 

As I already explained, this is nonsense.

 

The hull was completed, not the Panther 2. I could just aswell say that the E-100 was built, just because the hull was made.

 

Correction: Never finished.

The Panther 2 was never completed, the hull was completed. Big difference.

 

Yes I read your comment; I was never talking to you or arguing with you about whether it was fictional or not.  I was making a statement that it was never completed, whereas you're arguing with me whether it's fictional in game or not. 

That is a lie, and that, and only that, is my problem. You are spreading misinformation.

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

Here. You made the statement that it was completed. I hope you can read for yourself.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Volksjaeger_

[Blackart 4,984]

Germany already have Sabre so I see no problem to add M47.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Blackart

[Tchar 952]

I think the M47 should be used by Germany and any other country that received that Patton series, but as a Premium tank only.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

No you clearly did not read my comment, neither did you read your own. I'll make this as simple as possible, so you can understand it.

 

Thorthemighty is completely right. The Panther 2, was never built. You correcting him is wrong.

 

As I already explained, this is nonsense.

 

The Panther 2 was never completed, the hull was completed. Big difference.

 

That is a lie, and that, and only that, is my problem. You are spreading misinformation.

 

Here. You made the statement that it was completed. I hope you can read for yourself.

 

OH. MY. ..... GOD. Let me try a third time: 

 

The ONLY word I was switching, was built for completed.

 

I changed his sentence from:

Panther II was never built. 

 

to

 

[The] Panther II was never COMPLETED.

 

I dont know why the hell you're calling me a liar, when I've tried twice now to tell you that I've been saying EXACTLY what you've been saying.

 

The Panther 2 was never completed

 

 

Here, do you see the correlation? One more time:

 

My sentence: [The] Panther II was never COMPLETED.

Your sentence:

The Panther 2 was never completed

[Murkser 1,539]

OH. MY. ..... GOD. Let me try a third time: 

 

The ONLY word I was switching, was built for completed.

 

I changed his sentence from:

Panther II was never built. 

 

to

 

[The] Panther II was never COMPLETED.

 

I dont know why the hell you're calling me a liar, when I've tried twice now to tell you that I've been saying EXACTLY what you've been saying.

 

 

 

Here, do you see the correlation? One more time:

 

My sentence: [The] Panther II was never COMPLETED.

Your sentence:

Correction: Completed

What it should have been.

Correction: Never completed

Understood? This is my last attempt at making it clear for you. I wont discuss with you any further, as this only derails the topic.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Correction: Completed

What it should have been.

Correction: Never completed

Understood? This is my last attempt at making it clear for you. I wont discuss with you any further, as this only derails the topic.

 

If you had just substituted the word into the sentence we wouldn't even be here. Too hard I suppose.

[Murkser 1,539]

If you had just substituted the word into the sentence we wouldn't even be here. Too hard I suppose.

If you had just substituded the word into the sentence we wouldn't be here. Too hard I suppose. Come on, I do it for you.

 

Co-rec-tion: Ne-ver Com-ple-ted

 

Wasn't too hard, was it?

 

Now back on topic.

 

If this is added, gaijin could also add the west german M41 and east german T-55.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Volksjaeger_

[Gahlok12 457]

So, I suppose my two comments would be:

The USMC and US Army didn't even get theirs until 1952; and they were in Korea then. I'm not sure how Germany would have gotten anything by 1953. Most all of the "Description" pictures i've seen label dates as late 50's and into the 60's. 

 

This is a picture from 1956/1957. [Spoiler]

[/Spoiler]

My next comment would be that it seems you have an adequate GERMAN tank, to fit into the GERMAN  armed forces. 

 

 

My third and final comment would be that if it's added, the MM needs to be FIXED, so that it's not like the Canadair Sabre. (A US plane built by the land of maple syrup, marketed to the tea drinkers across the pond and bestowed to the Germans, still it's an allied plane.) 

Um really you don't know that the German line needs the Patton tank badly and the the thing is you haven't see the compliants about the problems with a teir 5 tank battle?! this kind of ignorant response from a community helper really?! You do know that this kind of response will not help everyone right?

borotovas, on 05 Nov 2014 - 1:38 PM, said:

Um yes but keep the Panther II in this game but the German line needs the Patton badly

So you want to replace a domestic Third Reich built tank with an American tank? Nope. Never.

 

My thoughts almost exactly.

Um really the German line needs tanks that can hold their own against the T-54/55s and the IS-4s

 

Panther II was never built. Um so nope as far as I know it never saw the production line.

Yeah 1 prototype built with the wrong kind of turret

 

Correction: Completed. 

 

A chassis was built and captured by the US armed forces. It's now on display with an Ausf G turret.

Wait what that is with an Ausf G turret and not the right kind for it....

 

Oh thanks but it was just a prototype never saw action right? But I do love the idea of the M-47 Patton (II) at least it would give Germany a decent tank to battle the up coming M103s, and the T-54s, T-44s, and IS-4Ms, and IS-3s.

Yes I agree with you

 

Well, there was an E-100 Chassis as well. That was captured by the brits and I believe, was eventually scrapped. (So yes, neither saw combat.)

 

The M47 would only really have a chance at a M103 if it was shooting into it's arse. I believe from the front, the upper plate is ~260 effective, and the lower is ~180 effective. And the M103 would blow the M47 in half.

 

(So, you know the PaK-44, right? The M58 (The M103's gun) produced about 10% more power, and had HEAT good for 13" armor at 30 deg.)

Yeah nether saw combat and the Patton is what the German line needs badly

 

Half of a domestic tank is more or less than a tank imported to Germany that had absolutely no German influence?

 

 

Besides that, it would just add more doubles to WT. I think that if you want to play an M47, you should play the USA.

Um you do know that the German tanks are fighting T-54s and Is-4s right and aren't doing well so they need this tank badly