Tiger phobia and Rommell's Trump card the "88"

[But_whole 101]

 Tigerphobia was a real and present danger after the allies encountered the Tiger in Tunisia at the end of 42 where at the battle of Kasserine pass 6 Tiger tanks  completely destroyed 55 allied tanks and over a hundred other  vehicles.These few tanks doing damage far disproportionate to their low vehicle count.

 There were only 11 serviceable Tiger's available at it's highest usage in the N African desert, but the hysteria and media circus that ensued after this battle was of massive proportions.

 Not the greatest tank in fluid mobile warfare due to it's thirst for fuel but as a defensive platform it was unparalleled in it's performance especially in defense of Europe and the Western front in late 42 to 44 WW2.

 Being made obsolete in late 44 to make way for the Tiger II the Tiger for it's few years and low build numbers (1354) gained a reputation far above it's active numbers .

 Funnily enough those numbers for Tiger's in N.Africa are around the same for the dreaded "88" the modified Flak 18/36 AT gun which Rommel never had more than 12 or 13 serviceable units these few , less than 3 full batteries in total accounted for over a thousand destroyed enemy tanks, AFV's and vehicles over the passage of that theater of war.

 The "barn door" as it was called with the huge splinter shield was basically modified by the exclusion of the splinter shield as the crews had learned in Russia that the splinter shield was cumbersome and attracted a lot of unwanted attention once sighted.

 The British operation "Battleaxe" in N.Africa was stopped dead literally in it's tracks by this weapon with 13 of these weapons destroying 123 of the 238 attacking tanks. Which basically defeated the action through a rapid loss of tanks and AFV's . 

 In the Spanish civil war Rommel had in an action depressed the barrels of his AA 88's and blewall the vehicles in the pass he was covering to oblivion , and he noted this in his diary for later use.

 Being a weapon that could lay down 20 rounds a minute on initial contact and then a sustained 12 RPM after can have a devastating effect on an assault. A weapon that in 2 minutes on it's cruciform mount trailer was combat ready and deadly out to any visual contact ,was a huge advantage in the fluid mobile campaign that Rommel undertook. 

 Germany's shortages of all types played havok on all 88's performance late in the war, their supplies of wolfram or tungsten impaired the 88's long range abilities .

 Do you harbor your supply of wolfram to use as tools of manufacture or do you use it in munitions for a one use deal .

Both the old Tiger and the AT 88 suffered this shortage as well as nearly all tungsten tipped German rounds late in the war.

 Both of these weapons made such an impact on their adversaries that the next generations of tanks and guns were of a much higher standard than if they had never encountered an 88 of any type.

Cheers. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by BradtheBad

[AdmiralDonutz 1,731]

The 88 will always be remembered as one of the greatest multipurpose guns of all time, from ripping wings off B-17s or blowing the turret off a T-34/85. Truly a classic.

 

                                                              

[But_whole 101]

The 88 will always be remembered as one of the greatest multipurpose guns of all time, from ripping wings off B-17s or blowing the turret off a T-34/85. Truly a classic.

 

                                                              

There were even 88cm guns on U-boats and surface vessels of the Kreigsmarine' but of a different type to this discussion. 

Your IGN is ultra man.

Edited January 11, 2015 by BradtheBad

[wulfhound 1,244]

Tigerphobia is rather overblown.

 

(Just a note: the M4 Sherman (especially the late models) is a perfect example as how to build a tank. Enough armor, wet ammunition stowage, large hatches for crew entry/exit, powerful multipurpose gun, powerful and reliable engine, ease of maintenance,and reliable drivetrain.)

[But_whole 101]

Some other info,

 http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tiger_tank.htm

[ramp4ge 621]

Tigerphobia came from the fact that the Panzer IV, which was much more common than the Tiger, physically resembled the Tiger. Therefore, "every German tank is a Tiger".

 

The Tiger was far too uncommon to be any real threat.

 

The Panther, which outnumbered the Tiger by nearly a factor of 5, was too uncommon to be any real threat...

Edited January 11, 2015 by ramp4ge

[Nope 10,634]

Tigerphobia came from the fact that the Panzer IV, which was much more common than the Tiger, physically resembled the Tiger. Therefore, "every German tank is a Tiger".

 

Let's see, same boxy armor, somewhat the same turret when looking at it from a distance, not knowing how they actually looked like... Yeah, you're quite right about this.

 

However, in 1944, Panther production exceeded Pz IV production. It wasn't rare, but not common either. I'd say for every 4 Stugs and Pz IVs, you get one Panther. Maybe every 5 Stugs and Pz IVs. But it wasn't so rare except in 1943.

 

On the other hand, didn't the US have awful tactics in Kasserine Pass? Isn't that the same battle where the US tanks were bottlenecked and so presented a nice shooting gallery for the Germans? Isn't that also the same battle where their leadership was pathetic? Granted, a Tiger is already at an advantage (75mm Shermans need to be at 200m to penetrate the front armor), but Kasserine Pass was an initial flop because the US had poor, outdated tactics and didn't understand the concept of mobile armored warfare that's been abused by the Germans frequently. Rommel was up to date with the war and is a smart commander, so he knew what he was doing. The US didn't know. Rommel knew that, and so his strategy involved abusing naivety and the early US tendency of making rookie mistakes. Why Kasserine was a loss for the Germans is because the US adapted and had a new leader. I'm sure Patton knew how to use tanks properly, don't you?

 

So while Kasserine Pass did invoke Tigerphobia, it doesn't have as much to do with the Tiger's and 8.8 cm Flak 18/36 relative performance to the Sherman than it has to do with poor initial leadership. The US got slaughtered by Tigers like that because they fell for traps and generally didn't know what to do with the new Germany strategy. Outdated tactics and all. The Tiger also looked a lot like the Pz IV at first glance, and the Pz IV was one of the most common tanks in Germany. So seeing the amount of Pz IVs, the US soldiers thought Germany made a ton of Tigers that can beat the crap out of their tanks with ease. Thus came Tigerphobia. It has a ton to do with the US not knowing what to do initially rather than the Tiger and the 8.8cm being so good. Don't use that example too often.

[Renamed99495 3,247]

didn't us have awful tactics through war`?

[Nope 10,634]

didn't us have awful tactics through war`?

 

First term of the war especially. But they got a hold of what tactics to use in the end.

[RoflSeal 8,561]

Was the Tiger deployed to Kasserine Pass? 

 

Pretty sure from a figment of my memory Tigers weren't deployed to Kasserine.

[wulfhound 1,244]

Was the Tiger deployed to Kasserine Pass? 
 
Pretty sure from a figment of my memory Tigers weren't deployed to Kasserine.

Tigers were never at Kasserine. They were sent to the N. African front about 10-11 months too late for that battle.

[_TomokoAnabuki 8,995]

well, the fun part is that in Africa at least, the majority of encounters with 88's are in Fact 90mm Italian guns.

[Nope 10,634]

well, the fun part is that in Africa at least, the majority of encounters with 88's are in Fact 90mm Italian guns.

 

That's just a Tiger meng.

[Abgeschossene 10,084]

Tigerphobia came from the fact that the Panzer IV, which was much more common than the Tiger, physically resembled the Tiger. Therefore, "every German tank is a Tiger".

 

The Tiger was far too uncommon to be any real threat.

 

The Panther, which outnumbered the Tiger by nearly a factor of 5, was too uncommon to be any real threat...

 

Panther was the second most common tank in Normandy.

 

Panther was also the third most common German AFV. [StuG III is the first, Panzer IV is the second, and the Panzer V is the third]

Edited January 18, 2015 by Abgeschossene

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

Tigers were never at Kasserine. They were sent to the N. African front about 10-11 months too late for that battle.

Sorry, but the Battle of the Kasserine Pass took place within frame of Operation Frühlingswind, in February 1943.

 

Axis forces in Tunisia capitulated in mid-May 1943.

 

If Tigers were really sent to Africa 'about 10-11 months too late for that battle', then this would have happened in December 1943 or January 1944. Conclusion: something is wrong with your explanation.

 

Actually...

 

- 20 Tiger IEs (and 16 Panzer IIINs) of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 arrived in Tunisia between November 1942 and January 1943.

 

- 6 Tigers (and 9 PzIIINs) were attached to 10. Panzerdivision for Op Frühlingswind, in February 1943. They took part in advance on Bou Thadi and Sidi Bou Zid, where they knocked out about 20 M4s of the US 1st ArmouredDivision.

 

Means: they were involved in the Battle of the Kasserine Pass.

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

 In the Spanish civil war Rommel had in an action depressed the barrels of his AA 88's and blewall the vehicles in the pass he was covering to oblivion , and he noted this in his diary for later use.

Erm... Rommel never participated in the Spanish Civil War. Between the two wars he served as company commander, then infantry warfare instructor, and then as CO of the War Academy in Wiener Neustadt.

 

It was also not his idea to 'depress the barrels of his 88s' even during the campaign in France in May-June 1940 (when Rommel commanded the 7. Panzer-Division, which was the first to cross the Somme): all of mixed Heer/Luftwaffe flak units equipped with 88s were equipped with anti-tank ammo already before the outbreak of the WWII.

 

Funnily enough those numbers for Tiger's in N.Africa are around the same for the dreaded "88" the modified Flak 18/36 AT gun which Rommel never had more than 12 or 13 serviceable units these few , less than 3 full batteries in total accounted for over a thousand destroyed enemy tanks, AFV's and vehicles over the passage of that theater of war...

Actually, Tigers arrived in Africa only towards the end of the campaign there, between November 1942 and January 1943. Therefore, it cannot be really said they played a very important role in that campaign.

 

On the other hand, number of (towed) 88s available to the Afrika Korps for most of 1941 and 1942 was often higher than '12-13'. There were two battalions equipped with them for most of 1941 (each had 12 88s), that's right, but this increased to four in 1942. That is: these were units deployed in direct support of ground troops. Additional, non-mobile 88-units were deployed for protection of ports like Tripoli and Benghazi. 

 

A weapon that in 2 minutes on it's cruciform mount trailer was combat ready and deadly out to any visual contact ,was a huge advantage in the fluid mobile campaign that Rommel undertook.

It was already in August 1941, that one of Flak Abteillungen assigned to the 21. Panzer-Division developed the tactics of firing the 88mm from its trailer, i.e. not dropping it down from the trailer to its cruciform pedestal. 

[PEW_WHOLE 221]

Then OP is right about 99% of everything here you guys are so wrong it's hilarious.

EXcept the Spanish civil war bit he's got his wires crossed there.

Edited January 28, 2015 by BADNESS

[Nope 10,634]

Means: they were involved in the Battle of the Kasserine Pass.

 

Though on a basis so limited compared to all the Pz IVs out there.

[Abgeschossene 10,084]

Then OP is right about 99% of everything here you guys are so wrong it's hilarious.

EXcept the Spanish civil war bit he's got his wires crossed there.

 

Then OP is right about 99% of everything here you guys are so wrong it's hilarious.

EXcept the Spanish civil war bit he's got his wires crossed there.

 

wat

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

Though on a basis so limited compared to all the Pz IVs out there.

Actually, majority of German tanks during the Battle of the Kasserine Pass were PzIIIJs or Ls. Even PzIVF2s were quite scarce there.

[Armoredbeercan 2,808]

wat

careful, he'll call you an E-Wiki historian 

[Ulatersk 8,959]

 

 

Actually, majority of German tanks during the Battle of the Kasserine Pass were PzIIIJs or Ls. Even PzIVF2s were quite scarce there.

 

Wasnt there 12 of them only?

 

I seem to remember that number in some relation with Afrika Corps...

[Nope 10,634]

Actually, majority of German tanks during the Battle of the Kasserine Pass were PzIIIJs or Ls. Even PzIVF2s were quite scarce there.

 

Either way, Pz IIIs and Pz IVs were more common in Africa than Tigers. The chances of facing a Tiger were quite slim. Compared to the reports about Tigers sent by US troops, this is a bit odd. Though Pz IIIs and Pz IVs are boxy hull tanks anyway.

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

Wasnt there 12 of them only?

 

I seem to remember that number in some relation with Afrika Corps...

PR.5 (21. PD) had a total of 55 PzIIIJ/L and 14 PzIVF2s as of 17 February 1943. I've got no data for PR.7 (10.PD), while those for PzIIINs (which served as support tanks for Tigers) are stated above.

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

Either way, Pz IIIs and Pz IVs were more common in Africa than Tigers. The chances of facing a Tiger were quite slim. Compared to the reports about Tigers sent by US troops, this is a bit odd. Though Pz IIIs and Pz IVs are boxy hull tanks anyway.

PzIIIs were primary tanks of the entire Wehrmacht from 1940 (when their in-service number became higher than that of ex-Czechoslovak Pz35s and Pz38s) until late 1942. In 1940 they were still armed with 37mm cannons, after the campaign in France, most were re-armed with short 50mm cannons (even so, at least two divisions still drove 37mm-armed PzIIIs when Germany invaded USSR, in June 1941).

 

It was only in May 1942 that PzIIIJs with long cannon began appearing, but their numbers remained low for the rest of the campaign in North Africa.

 

Thus, when you think 'Afrika Korps', then you ought to think 'PzIII with short cannon' most of the time. (Organizational scheme of each Panzer-Regiment for 1941-1942 saw it having 3-4 companies of 15-17 PzIIIs and 1 of 15-17 PzIVs 'short' per each of its usual two battalions; additionally, each of these 3-4 companies had 5 PzIIs.)

 

As of November or December 1942, PzIIIs were theoretically and officially (though not in terms of numbers) replaced by PzIVs 'Lang' (i.e. F2 and subsequent variants with long cannon 75mm) as 'main medium tanks'. However, PzIIIs remained most numeorus tanks in Panzer-Divisions even during the Battle of Kursk.

 

Not only for this reason, but because the British (and Commonwealth) forces bore the brunt of tank warfare in Tunisia and, later on, in France and Germany, the US Army actually engaged Tigers only: 

- once in Africa, and

- only some 2-3 times throughout the entire campaign in France and Germany, 1944-1945.

 

They might have had a few additional encounters with Tigers in Italy, though I'm not very well-informed about that campaign.

Edited January 28, 2015 by xx_CoolHand_xx