Tiger phobia and Rommell's Trump card the "88"

[ramp4ge 621]

Garbage again.

There were batteries of 88's defending Omaha beach , they even shot up the old battleship Arkansas.I have the order of battle for the beach defences and hours of footage of them at Omaha FFS

 

 

Arkansas was never hit. Only Texas was, and that wasn't even at the D-day landings. That was at Cherbourg on the 25th of June. And it was a 240mm shell that struck her, not an 88mm. Texas was struck twice by 240mm rounds. One was unexploded.

[xx_CoolHand_xx 511]

One of you idiots also suggested that there were only 4 or 5 fights with Tiger 1's in the ETO FFS all the SS units in the ETO had them.

...yup, and there are idiots who called every single German tank encountered by American troops in France and western Germany of 1944-1945 a 'Tiger'....

 

...and then there are researchers who concluded they encountered Tigers not even '4 or 5', but only '2 or 3' times.

 

But of course, because Brad Pit is fighting Tigers so heroically in 'Fury', it's clear that such researchers are simply idiots.

[ramp4ge 621]

This is the same guy who's alt claimed that tank crews received no HVAP despite overwhelming historical proof, and then tried to say some Department of Defense report from 1946 said tank crews didn't get HVAP. Failing to realized the Department of Defense didn't even exist in 1946.

 

There's no dealing with this guy (or his alt, who happens to be the OP of this thread). He'll say he has tons of sources he'll never reveal, he'll quote wikipedia and he'll call you an idiot when you post actual sources. And he'll say things like "Zaloga is known to make things up"...

[Nope 10,634]

There's no dealing with this guy (or his alt, who happens to be the OP of this thread). He'll say he has tons of sources he'll never reveal, he'll quote wikipedia and he'll call you an E-wiki historian when you post actual sources. And he'll say things like "Zaloga is known to make things up"...

 

Fixed.

[Freddy31621 133]

Garbage again.

There were batteries of 88's defending Omaha beach , they even shot up the old battleship Arkansas.I have the order of battle for the beach defences and hours of footage of them at Omaha FFS

One of you idiots also suggested that there were only 4 or 5 fights with Tiger 1's in the ETO FFS all the SS units in the ETO had them.

And they racked up huge numbers of Ronson kills.

Actually read some after battle reports from all sides please you will learn much more than the little you know now .

 

Omaha beach defences consisted of 14 resistance nests - most of the heavy weapons were placed to fire along the beach and not out to sea with protection to seaward.

 

WN60

2 x 75mm FK 231(f) one casemated - one pit, french turret with 37mm and mg, 3 x mortar, 1 x 20mm AA gun

 

WN 61

88mm Pak 43/41 casemented (enfiladed beach from east to west - not pointing to seaward), 2 x 50mm open pits, 2 mortars, 3 x mg

 

WN62

2 x 75mm FK 235(b) casemented, 2 x 50mm, 2 x mortar, 5 x mg

 

WN63 

Inland and no fixed weapons

 

WN64 (partially completed)

76.2mm le.K.H 290(r) unfinished casemate, 1 x 20mm AA

 

WN65

37mm AT gun in pit, 2 x 50mm one casemated - one pit, 1 x 75mm PaK 40 (inland)

 

WN66

French turret with 37mm and mg, 1 x mg casement (partially completed), 50mm in pit, 2 x mortar

 

WN67 

No fixed defences - sometimes stated as the site for the Wurfgerat in WN68

 

WN68

47mm PaK 181(f) in pit, mg casement, 50mm in pit, 2 x 75mm L24 gun turrets (ex VK3001 project), 38 x 32cm Wurfgerat

 

WN69

20mm AA

 

WN70

75mm FK 17(t) casemented, 75mm unknown type in pit, 2 x mortar, 5 mg casemented, 20mm AA

 

WN71

9 x mg casemented, 2 x mortar

 

WN72

88mm Pak 43/41 casemented (enfiladed the beach to the east), 75mm Pak 97/38 in pit, 50mm casemented, 5 x mg

 

WN73

75mm FK 23(f) casemented, 8 x mg, 3 x mortar

 

WN74 (Luftwaffe Radar station)

75mm Czechoslovakian field gun (unidentified type)

 

Along with these fixed defences the defenders had

 

1 mortar, 48 x mg, 12 x 105mm le FH, 4 x 150mm sFH, 5 x 155mm K 418(f)

 

So most large calibre weapons in the immediate vicinity of Omaha were German. 

 

Lets see your OOB for the beach defences now for all those batteries of 88mm

[ramp4ge 621]

Lets see your OOB for the beach defences now for all those batteries of 88mm

 

I still think it's funny that he thinks the 88mm could "shoot up" a battleship. You know. Guns that weren't there totally "shot up" a battleship that never got hit.

 

Totes legit.
 

[S1U663R 471]

well, the fun part is that in Africa at least, the majority of encounters with 88's are in Fact 90mm Italian guns.

But they are good at taking out tanks

[PEW_WHOLE 221]

How much fun is this lol.

[wulfhound 1,244]

How much fun is this lol.

If "proving how stupid you can be" is fun, you're the Olympic Gold Medalist

Edited March 4, 2015 by wulfhound

[ramp4ge 621]

He quoted the 3AD site in another thread regarding Dessau.

 

Lol. Oh, God. My sides. 

[Freddy31621 133]

How much fun is this lol.

 

 

If "proving how stupid you can be" is fun, you're the Olympic Gold Medalist

 

Its the old "OMG I cant prove what I say despite claiming I can" so - "How to save face - I am trolling really"

[InfidelBHF 28]

Tigerphobia is rather overblown.

 

(Just a note: the M4 Sherman (especially the late models) is a perfect example as how to build a tank. Enough armor, wet ammunition stowage, large hatches for crew entry/exit, powerful multipurpose gun, powerful and reliable engine, ease of maintenance,and reliable drivetrain.)

Fobia is another synonym for FEAR & every allied tanker in WW2 feared encountering Tigers no matter how bad-ass they were vets or rookies(since sitting in a tank that get blown by a TIger up to 2+km with np whatsoever while you have some theoretical chance of pen him frontally below 500m much less those "fantasy"1+km pens which were NEVER proven in combat).Sherman was multipurpose tank but calling it "perfect example how to build a tank" is overblown m8.

You're "perfect tank"was also known as "Death Trap" by allied tank crews(ask any WW2 allied wet about shermans if you can find any alive today but dont be suprised by their answer or that they dont want to talk about it).

[WildBlueYonder 3,072]

Fobia is another synonym for FEAR & every allied tanker in WW2 feared encountering Tigers no matter how bad-xxx they were vets or rookies(since sitting in a tank that get blown by a TIger up to 2+km with np whatsoever while you have some theoretical chance of pen him frontally below 500m much less those "fantasy"1+km pens which were NEVER proven in combat).Sherman was multipurpose tank but calling it "perfect example how to build a tank" is overblown m8.

You're "perfect tank"was also known as "Death Trap" by allied tank crews(ask any WW2 allied wet about shermans if you can find any alive today but dont be suprised by their answer or that they dont want to talk about it).

Stop that god damn Death Trap thing.

[Armoredbeercan 2,808]

Stop that god damn Death Trap thing.

but muh belton koopa! 

[Blazingskitters 952]

Yay! Belton Cooper facts!!

On a different variation, I'm reading tank war about the 5th RTR and they were quite effective at dealing with Tigers in north Africa. It was a scary tank, but it wasn't seen as a monster.
They were much more worried about AT guns because of the low profile and them being in multiples covering each other.
The German crews were also very good at shoot and scoot tactics.

Good book BTW, well researched and full of interesting snippets about the various types of tank used. The crews loved the room in the Sherman compared to the Cromwell, Grant was well liked; the firefly was used by the best crews and the Stuart in UK service was the honey due to the salesman's pitch "ain't she a honey?" Edited April 10, 2015 by Blazingskitters

[NO_DRAGON 2,374]

I advice to see here

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/228846-swinging-the-sledgehammer-the-combat-effectiveness-of-german-heavy-tank-battalions-in-world-war-ii/

 

or here

 

http://www.history.army.mil/books/Staff-Rides/kasserine/Vol-II-Part_4.pdf

 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a424990.pdf

 

no one should ever talk about somewhat he did not at least research a bit which is thanks to the Internet not so hard.

 

This is quite an handy search engine for pdf files and you can even reduce it to only search military (mainly US, at least I haven't yet any other hits) sources. 

[Freddy31621 133]

I advice to see here

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/228846-swinging-the-sledgehammer-the-combat-effectiveness-of-german-heavy-tank-battalions-in-world-war-ii/

 

or here

 

http://www.history.army.mil/books/Staff-Rides/kasserine/Vol-II-Part_4.pdf

 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a424990.pdf

 

no one should ever talk about somewhat he did not at least research a bit which is thanks to the Internet not so hard.

 

This is quite an handy search engine for pdf files and you can even reduce it to only search military (mainly US, at least I haven't yet any other hits) sources. 

 

The British still dealt with the Tiger I in Tunisia effectively with 6pdrs firing APCBC at ranges out to 800 yards - towed guns and tank mounted guns, also med artillery - See the battle of Hunts Gap (7 plus Tigers lost) or the North Irish Horse statistics in Tunisia

 

Churchills balance sheet (NiH had a mix of Mk I and Mk III/IV Churchills - 2 pdr, 6 pdr and 3" close support guns, no APDS)

 

Mines - 1 destroyed, 7 repaired

AT guns - 3 destroyed, 1 repaired

Panzer IV - 1 destroyed

Other (non enemy action) - 1 total loss, 2 repaired  (all fell down wadi's)

Aerial bombing - 1 destroyed 

 

17 Put out of action (3 not by the enemy) with 10 being repaired in total - loss of 7 Churchills (one not to enemy action)

 

German losses to the NiH in the same period

 

Panzer III - 7 destroyed, 10+ damaged and abandoned

Panzer IV - 2 destroyed

Panzer VI (Tiger) - 1 destroyed, 1 damaged and abandoned

88 mm gun - 2 damaged, 7 captured

75mm and below - not known

Me 110 - 1 destroyed

 

Not too bad for a slow tank with a poor gun compared to the Tiger

 

Those links you gave were to a battle the Americans performed poorly at - morale, equipment, complacency, leadership, tactics. Nothing to do with the heavy tank battalions per se and how they performed.  

[NO_DRAGON 2,374]

My post was realatet to the ones bringing up the Battle of Kasserine Pass as an example. 

 

Which is as You yourself state an bad example. And it is in fact an bad example as You can read out the sources I put up.

 

As those sources explain the poor performance of the Us against the Germans at that time. I did not in any way wanted to imply anything other, than to get Info about something before even talking about it. Which I haven't at all in my post, or did I?

[Kazumi_ 6,575]

There were even 88cm guns on U-boats and surface vessels of the Kreigsmarine' but of a different type to this discussion. 

Your IGN is ultra man.

I can confirm, Being at U-505 in chicago, I saw she had a 105mm deck gun with 2x twin 20mm AA guns behind.

I belive the U-boats used deck guns that were eitehr 88, 105 or 128mm. I can't confirm the 128mm+ deck guns.

[NO_DRAGON 2,374]

Nope, 105 mm was the biggest and with the last series build during WW2 Germany got away from that and started to design the Boats more the way they still look nowadays.

 

http://www.uboat.net/types/xxi.htm

[Crag_r 8,620]

I can confirm, Being at U-505 in chicago, I saw she had a 105mm deck gun with 2x twin 20mm AA guns behind.

I belive the U-boats used deck guns that were eitehr 88, 105 or 128mm. I can't confirm the 128mm+ deck guns.

 

Typically 88mm's on Type 7's and 105mm's on the type 9's. 

[fdsdh1 1,290]

this thread seems to have gone a bit off topic in the middle...

 

 

anyway

 

 

is it true German troops had Churchill phobia, owing to its armour and crazy climbing ability, I heard Churchills especially the Crocodile was one of the tanks the Germans feared most

 

the Tiger Fibel lists the Churchill as a hard tank to kill!

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

well the churchel had good armor but nearly every german tank had the same climb ability (even the Maus)

[Nope 10,634]

well the churchel had good armor but nearly every german tank had the same climb ability (even the Maus)

 

Well said tanks usually didn't weigh as much as the Churchill back then. That and with the speed of the Churchill, no one expected it to climb so well.

[PEW_WHOLE 221]

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/defeat/d-day-invasion.htm

 

an excerpt from the above

 

 At Omaha, American troops were pinned down amid withering cross fire from Germans perched along high cliffs located at either end of the beach. Responding to calls for help, U.S. Naval commanders sailed their destroyers dangerously close to the beach and blasted the entrenched Germans at nearly point-blank range even though they risked getting blown out of the water by the big German artillery guns that were still functioning. American soldiers on the beach then climbed the cliffs and dislodged the Germans one-by-one, taking out the machine-gun nests and 88mm guns which had so far killed hundreds of Americans.

Edited May 11, 2015 by BADNESS