The Final Interview with Erich Hartmann

[Wulph 1,701]

Excellent interview!  Thanks for sharing it.

[MILESPARVUS 1,100]

That was a most interesting read.  Thanks for putting that up.

 

Though, I did learn a few new things from this, one of them being; The American Mustangs and Russian planes accidentally got into dogfights with each other? How could they not tell the difference between the Balkenkruez and the USAAF/Red Army Air Force Roundels?

 

 

My reading of the situation was that Hartmann and his wingman went through so quickly that each side didn't notice that they had been fired upon by German planes, being distracted by checking out these unfamiliar planes (no doubt with an eye to making a report later).   All they knew was some of their comrades where now burning, so the Americans thought the Russians shot at them first and vice versa.  ID had nothing to do with it, just perception.  Once you've been fired upon, well then it's on like Donkey Kong.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Kiskatona

[Rampant_01 47]

A good read  :salute:

 

To a certain extent, he reminded me of Saburo Sakai, whose biography I just finished. Both suffered post-war, but managed to bounce back with a new lease on life. Heroes and aces they are, but men and human they are ultimately.

[Cruella_Mortemo 4,710]

Superb, a legend and a great man. Why we aren't even allowed to speak his name in these forums or bear images of him, is beyond me.

 

Russia should take his last answer to heart.

[Rexeh 2,328]

Superb, a legend and a great man. Why we aren't even allowed to speak his name in these forums or bear images of him, is beyond me.

 

Russia should take his last answer to heart.

All the stuff the Soviets did (like raping) is revenge. Germans did horrible things in Russia, like scorched earth policies. 

[JovoNanovo 38]

Thanks for the amazing interview. This inspired me to search out more info on Hartmann, and i found this little story that you might enjoy.

 

Please forgive my poor computer skills that only allow a simple copy/paste of the article.

 

Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14


".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and
we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up!
And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders
us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000
feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost
two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take
a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in
sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance
to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have
to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in
the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.

So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From
one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit.
I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck,
with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was
another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line!
Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no
effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds
each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the
remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine
cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view
mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109
following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109.
So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door
right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I
peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted
Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the
transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but
yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the
same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.
.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm
really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself:
am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot
catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn
he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives
for the two P-51s.
Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because
if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a
front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390
mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very
long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the
Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half
hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no
such luck. I quit firing. The Me109
still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his
fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not
fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-
51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white
smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a
gentle roll to the right.

I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full attention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly
through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really
apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press
the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250
yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to
the horizon. He
levels out and then does a vertical tail stand!
 And next thing I know, he's using
his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an
experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by
pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for
altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving
speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at
eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never
heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both
down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level
out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on
him.........
At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast
and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on
me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe
pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single
20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I
pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see

anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are
burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to
prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less
than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has
a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner
are
painted black.
It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number
painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his
airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot
see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits!
I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15
degrees, to let me see the
underside,
still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally
impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder.
German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick:
TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take
centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two
hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm
panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail,
obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-
cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going
to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on.
My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and
so.
This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I
think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what
he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition,
would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of
the situation, and I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs
about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm
dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My
P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left
rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I
began to black out so with my left hand I
pinch my veins in my neck to stop
blackout). I scan the
sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading
towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save
gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an
hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.
I never saw the Me109 with the red heart again. At the
mess I mention the Me109 with the red
heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly
quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:
"....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a red heart is Eric Hartmann who has
downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting
him down.
I’ve
never
before
heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "

[Nudelblitz 22,006]

All the stuff the Soviets did (like raping) is revenge. Germans did horrible things in Russia, like scorched earth policies. 

he was not even talking about that.

 

btw: all sides did horrible things, not only the germans

the red 'rape' army is just a example of this (btw they did it not only to germans but also polish people for example, the red army was actually very known for this in ww2, one of the reasons why my family fled from Konigsberg and let all their stuff there (and they where quite rich))

[hanwind 291]

I would be interested to know if Hartmann confirmed the story of Lawrence Thompson:

Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14


".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and
we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania."<

Was Hartmann at that time at Romania or somewhere he could have met Thompson in air combat? The exact date and location of Thompson´s story? January 1945 or was it earlier on 1944? Romania switched side on August 1944 and by January 1945 Germans were driven out of the country - what was the possible purpose of American bombers being at that time over Romania? And what was Hartmann´s version of this encounter with Mustang pilot?

And another citation: "The German pilot points at his tail,
obviously meaning the 200 victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-
cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going
to be his 201 kill!"

Was Hartmann´s tally on January 1945 only 200 kills? His total tally was 352 - this would mean, that on 1945 he would have scored 152 during the few remaining months of war on 1945 - can someone check this?

The story is certainly good - it would be even better, if it can be verified by exact facts.

Edited April 15, 2014 by hanwind

[ZdrytchX 1,261]

It took me an hour to realize "Ushi" was his wife. I thought that was an item or something, because the only other meaning I associated it with was the japanese name.

[ReachForTheSky 3,825]

Wonderful. I very nearly cried at his last answer.

[OberstDackel 123]

Interesting review, which gives good insight information of the top ace pilot about the air war. Although 352 enemy planes is still unbelievable record, it seems that Hartmann was honest and modest about his winning score.

 

When it comes to the harsh treatment of German POW´s and German civilians by the Soviets, we should remember, that Germans were at least equally harsh and cruel with most of the Soviet POW´s - they were considered "Untermensch" (inferior race). The Germans did not invade Soviet Union just for conquest - it was a "Vernichtungskrieg" (destruction war, where the aim was to "eliminate" most of the enemy population to make more "Lebensraum" for the Germans). Also Germans raped and killed at the Eastern Front - not only the "Sonderkommandos" of SS, but even the Wehrmacht had its score of cruelties at the Eastern Front. However, Hartmann´s attitude to Russians and Ukrainians in this interview is much more human and makes much more sense.

This is total nonsense propagated by Bolsheviks. You have a very poor, literalist superfiical understanding of these German polcies. Seecondly, it does not account for numerous German generals demanding and petitioning Hitler for greater Slavic contribution to the war effort- pricniaplly minor nobles disgusted with the Bolsheviks destruction of religion (please watch on Youtube the Bolsheviks jubilant footage blowing up major Russian Orthodox cathedrals): Wilfried Karl Strik-Strikfeld, Lieutenant General A. A. Vlasov, Helmuth von Pannwitz, Andrei Shkuro, fighter ace Semyon Trofimovich Bychkov, Bronislav Romanovich Antilevsky, Generalleutnant Werner Freiherr von und zu Gilsa's, General Bronislav Kaminski,  General Mykhailo Omelianovych-Pavlenko, General Pavlo Shandruk- and Himmler persuading Hitler in 1944 to form at least 10 divisions of Russian volunteers.

 

In early 1918, Ehrenburg published a collection of verse entitled A Prayer for Russia (Molitva o Rossy). One work in this collection, "IJudgment Day", makes Ehrenburg's hostility to the Bolsheviks apparent. It features Red soldiers stopping to rape a woman as they storm the Winter Palace. The event never happened- it was a fictional work.

 

In September 1919, the White Russians (pro Czarists) took control of Kiev, and Ehrenburg resumed publishing hate-filled anti-Bolshevik articles, calling Lenin's revolution a "drunken orgy", the Bolsheviks "rapists and conquerors". They came for Ehrneburg and he had to flee.

 

We see how Ehrenburg's obsessive thematic content and his weather-vane loyalty arise.

    Now we understand the Germans are not human. Now the word "German" has become the most terrible curse. Let us not speak. Let us not be indignant. Let us kill. If you do not kill a German, a German will kill you. He will carry away your family, and torture them in his damned Germany. If you have killed one German, kill another.

Soldiers loved his articles. An order was passed not to use copies of Ehrenburg's articles for rolling cigarettes. Molotov reported that Ehrenburg "was worth several divisions".

On May Day 1944, Ehrenburg received the Lenin Prive for his wartime efforts.
At least one Soviet officer, however, felt that Ehrenburg's articles went too far and incited Soviet troops to senseless violence, killing Germans trying to surrender. This officer, Jewish interestingly enough, Lev Kopelev, was arrested and charged with "bourgeois propaganda" and "pity for the enemy".

 

One leaflet by Ehrenburg, obviously not an Orthodox, well documented called "kill":

"The Germans are not human beings. From now on, the word 'German' is the most horrible curse. From now on, the word 'German' strikes us to the quick. We have nothing to discuss. We will not get excited. We will kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill a German with a bullet, then kill him with your bayonet. If your part of the front is quiet and there is no fighting, then kill a German in the meantime ... If you have already killed a German, then kill another one - there is nothing more amusing to us than a heap of German corpses. Don't count the days, don't count the kilometers. Count only one thing: the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the Germans! ...  - Kill the Germans! Kill!"

 

the incitement to rape civilans- icnluding Russians who were nuetral or semi-pro German:

"Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill, you gallant soldiers of the Red Army."

 

Ilya Enhrenburg the Red Goebbels?-At least Goebbels stayed loyal to one doctrine not changing direction to save his neck.

[hanwind 291]

To make it clear: Im well aware of what happened in those areas which were occupied by Red Army. Ilya Ehrenburghs writings are just one example of senseless hate propaganda, which has very bad consequences. The only thing I wanted to point out that Germans were not saints in Russia either. The stalinist system with all of its terrible things was still a lesser evil for Russians and other Slavic people than the role which Hitler was planning for them in his empire. It was not just NKVD which made Red Army and VVS RKKA (Soviet Army Air Force) fighting despite heavy losses. But lets leave it to that.

As Hartmann tells in his interview, at one point harsh disclipinatory means were taken to stop the abuses against German women. It is true that he and other POWs had a very hard time in Soviet Union. But he was not killed, he came back and he could tell his story for the interest of all of us, who are interested in the history of aviation during WW2.    

[Spitfire_ 7,306]

 "One thing I learned is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of

the actions of a few. Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions

died. I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the

Nazis, or Americans because of slaves. Never hate, it only  eats you alive.

Keep an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be

surprised at what you find."

 

 

[CKecho 11]

Great read re" Final Interview with Erich Hartman

[borfadorf 19]

I just have to say that this man is a true hero. True shame of course, how his 109G-6 skinn is not in WT but hey, theres always custom skins right?

Anyways, for those of you who think it is "too long," believe me it is worth the read.

R.I.P., the greatest fighter pilot to have ever lived.

[Cpt_Branko 9,698]

I guess you're right Wenin. Just thought it would be easier to see because in real life we don't have "render issues" and all that.

Friendly fire was fairly common and misidentification even more.

Recently I read Lipfert's war diary which is a great book on Soviet front air combat. Anyway on one of his early sorties he reported to his leader a squadron of Ju-88s passing underneath, trying to seem observant and useful. His flight leader replied "Lovely 88s! They're IL-2s - Russians!". Well, he was new, so sort of understandable.

As an experienced flier and 170ish victory ace at that point, he saw IL-2s strafing and led his wingman to attack. His wingman just dryly commented "Fine Il-2s". They were Mustangs.

I could go on, but basically. from all the history books, memoirs and so on - this sort of thing was common. Read a book on air combat intended for pilots and there is a metric ton of discussion on how not to be blind in air - some maneuvers are discouraged on basis of possibility of losing sight of the enemy, especially against the ground.

What you can see well sitting in a comfortable chair on the ground and sipping coffee does not translate well to what you see strapped in cockpit of a fighter flying at 500 km/h or more. Edited March 27, 2015 by Cpt_Branko

[rowns 21]

"A:         Well, I would not call it an evacuation, but a full retreat. We had to move, and

I discovered that when the radio, armor plate and rear wall, you could stack

four men in the tail, but three was about the most I would try. We managed to

save many of our precious ground crew from capture using this method."

 

About which plane is he talking? still the Bf109 or did I miss something?

[_Sev_ 1,115]

Yes he is still talking about the 109, Adolf Galland wrote in his book also about this, to be exact he wrote about Fw 190 pilots flying 2-3 mechanics in their plane from Tunis to Sicily.

[rowns 21]

Yes he is still talking about the 109, Adolf Galland wrote in his book also about this, to be exact he wrote about Fw 190 pilots flying 2-3 mechanics in their plane from Tunis to Sicily.

whoo never knew that, interesting.

[Der_Sheriff 805]

Thanks for the amazing interview. This inspired me to search out more info on Hartmann, and i found this little story that you might enjoy.

 

Please forgive my poor computer skills that only allow a simple copy/paste of the article.

 

Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14

-snip-

I do not want to spoil the party, but...
While this is a joy to read. I researched a bit and its highly questionable if the story is true. If the story is true, it's not Hartmann he met, according to "google results".

I wish it is true. 

As a matter of fact i found no proofes or disproofes of the story.
I only found this at the original source:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html#p51vshartmann

Take notice: the concensus on this story seems to be that it is not authentic. If the story is real, it was not Hartmann that Thompson met. It is a good read, neverthless.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Der_Sheriff

[_Qball_ 1]

The last answer was beautiful

[Schattenfaenger 166]

Amazing read - thanx for sharing!

[CannonOscopy 279]

Great post. many thanks!

[ColdHeat 2,100]

All the stuff the Soviets did (like raping) is revenge. Germans did horrible things in Russia, like scorched earth policies. 

 

I hope you see that this is no justification whatsoever. Both sides had it's fair share of nationalism, political indoctrination, atrocities and war crimes right from the start of the war such as Stalin's organized partisan warfare which is just as responsible for the revenge acts of desperation where civilians got rounded up and hanged or shot.

 

In general the civilians that were killed or even raped and the tragedies that happened were appalling. Not even "revenge" could justify that as with a 99,9% likability, the young girl or old woman you just raped had nothing to do with scorched earth atrocities ordered by Hitler or the ones ordered by Stalin. I doubt that even most rapes happened out of personal revenge but rather due to the nature of war where bestialization takes it place and an "no consequences" situation allows you to act just how you please.

[Speedbirdchatban 307]

Looking back on the first page, how does Gaijin hate Erich Hartmann again?