Jump to content

128mm APDS (treibspiegelgeschoss mit H-kern)


Ruslan_DR
 Share

Vote here!  

631 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to have a fair fight with APDS against postwar counterparts?

    • Yes
      573
    • No (Explain.)
      58


Coming back to the performance of the round, I've seen plenty of above 400 mm figures pop up about it, hell even 450+ figures. How exactly is this being achieved? I mean, wasn't it originally 350-ish at the muzzle? How has it creeped up so much? In comparison, the 3BM11 was quoted at 455 @ muzzle, the 3BM7 at 370 @ muzzle, and the very similar to the 128 APDS in this case - 3BM8 at 350 @ muzzle. All on the USN standard. Anyone want to explain what changed, if anything actually did? I really can't understand how something so similar to the 3BM8 can walk away with so much more performance. I mean, it walks past the 3BM7 which has a truck load more energy.

yep thats my fault came from the time when i didnt know better and calculatet IT in the wrong way but i already said that somewhere in this thread
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming back to the performance of the round, I've seen plenty of above 400 mm figures pop up about it, hell even 450+ figures. How exactly is this being achieved? I mean, wasn't it originally 350-ish at the muzzle? How has it creeped up so much? In comparison, the 3BM11 was quoted at 455 @ muzzle, the 3BM7 at 370 @ muzzle, and the very similar to the 128 APDS in this case - 3BM8 at 350 @ muzzle. All on the USN standard. Anyone want to explain what changed, if anything actually did? I really can't understand how something so similar to the 3BM8 can walk away with so much more performance. I mean, it walks past the 3BM7 which has a truck load more energy.

128mm APDS is simply 88mm APCR fired from sabot at 1260m/s they like flat plates, but hate sloped.

anyway murican 90mm T44 APCR (m304 APCR fired from 90mm T15 series guns) have about 330-350mm at 100m so.

also interesting is that 90mm T44 APCR could penetrate 76mm 280BHN RHA at 617m

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:174112]
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though this comment is quite late compared to the date of the post, I think it would make a marvelous addition.  Historically accurate?  Not really but you see these IS-2 mod. 1944s with ammunition given to the post war IS-2M variant.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

128mm APDS is simply 88mm APCR fired from sabot at 1260m/s they like flat plates, but hate sloped.

anyway murican 90mm T44 APCR (m304 APCR fired from 90mm T15 series guns) have about 330-350mm at 100m so.

also interesting is that 90mm T44 APCR could penetrate 76mm 280BHN RHA at 617m

 

So it's essentially the 88 mm PzGr. 40 adjusted for the 60m/s faster velocity still, right?

 

Even though this comment is quite late compared to the date of the post, I think it would make a marvelous addition.  Historically accurate?  Not really but you see these IS-2 mod. 1944s with ammunition given to the post war IS-2M variant.

 

Das a War Thunder original myth.

 

The IS-2 Mod. 1943 and IS-2 Mod. 1944 were in service until 1965, when the last of them were converted into the IS-2M specification, at least the applicable ones. The BR-471D was developed and was serviced throughout 1946. The year gap is nonsensical if you consider how long the Soviets had the round before the first of the IS-2M conversions started (1957). It genuinely makes no sense that the Soviets wouldn't arm a fleet that used to consist of about 3,400 vehicles, albeit that isn't accounting for the losses. I'm sure they had at least 1,000 of them, which really, why wouldn't they arm them with the BR-471D until eleven years later, despite the IS-3 (in the same units) and IS-4 receiving it?

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's essentially the 88 mm PzGr. 40 adjusted for the 60m/s faster velocity still, right?

yep, but correct velocity for 88mm pzgr 40/43 is 1130m/s (in game is wrong) so 130m/s more (T44 APCR had 155m/s more than M304 APCR) 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we're gaining what with the 130m/s boost? 20-ish mm? So it sits around the 0° figure of the 3BM7 (if it were corrected)?

T44 APCR for 155m/s boost get 50mm penetration

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i'm psyched for next update now. A new plane, possibly this, and many other things is my guess. I'm just glad that finally we've been listened to. That number of actual penetration best not be nerfed, we did calculate it several times.

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i'm psyched for next update now. A new plane, possibly this, and many other things is my guess. I'm just glad that finally we've been listened to. That number of actual penetration best not be nerfed, we did calculate it several times.

"possibly this"... As to my knowledge they haven't said anything about this? It hasn't even been sent to the devs D: Im hoping we get this so we might actually stand a chance against those IS-3-4's and T10M's.... and T-60's.... And M-103's

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what will be the core for that Shell? Density? Dispersion?

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what will be the core for that Shell? Density? Dispersion?

how many times it need to be repeated that core is 88mm pzgr 40/43 APCR...

  • Upvote 1
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"possibly this"... As to my knowledge they haven't said anything about this? It hasn't even been sent to the devs D: Im hoping we get this so we might actually stand a chance against those IS-3-4's and T10M's.... and T-60's.... And M-103's

 

Check back on page 11, they already passed it but they sent it back because all of these suggestions were approved way early, so they moved them all back. 

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how many times it need to be repeated that core is 88mm pzgr 40/43 APCR...

 

A shell withdrawn form inventory by mid 40? So which one is meant?

 

PzGr 40 HK
PzGr 40 W
PzGr 40 St

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A shell withdrawn form inventory by mid 40? So which one is meant?

 

PzGr 40 HK
PzGr 40 W
PzGr 40 St

pzgr 40 HK, from pzgr 40 W or ST you can't expect any good penetration ability.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pzgr 40 HK, from pzgr 40 W or ST you can't expect any good penetration ability.

which is the exact point here, this round as APDS, did it use a HK for fact or is it a wish? Fact is that the Pak 41 shot more Pzgr 41 W than HK. And that one had had around 80 mm pen at 500m if memeory serves right, I have not come across any figures for the 40w as far i can remember...

 

SO it is vry questionnable if that round was based on a HK. BEsides i have still not seen any figures at all, especially dispersion....

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

which is the exact point here, this round as APDS, did it use a HK for fact or is it a wish? Fact is that the Pak 41 shot more Pzgr 41 W than HK. And that one had had around 80 mm pen at 500m if memeory serves right, I have not come across any figures for the 40w as far i can remember...

 

SO it is vry questionnable if that round was based on a HK. BEsides i have still not seen any figures at all, especially dispersion....

it could only use tungsten cored 88mm pzgr 40 APCR, as it was experimental APDS.

anyway only 88mm only got tungsten cored APCR.

Edited by arczer25
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it could only use tungsten cored 88mm pzgr 40 APCR, as it was experimental APDS.

anyway only 88mm only got tungsten cored APCR.

 

I am pretty sure that the 88mm PzGr40  W existed same as an ST version.

 That shell being experimental does not make it Tungsten cored by default. The only prove we have so far is hta apparently it tried, found on a shooting range, t seems unharmed, so it has not been fired against a plate. This being a test round to see if the sabot detaches...... can very well be a lead filled one to simulate the weight.

 

Fun fact, if we go 40/43 that round was around for such a short time, implying it was fieled with the ferdies at kursk. Which is around the same time, the order arrived to return all Tungsten cored rounds from arsenals to be re used in the tooling industrie. This is related to the deals with Portugal and Spain, main Tungsten sources for Germany being turned over.

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am pretty sure that the 88mm PzGr40  W existed same as an ST version.

 That shell being experimental does not make it Tungsten cored by default. The only prove we have so far is hta apparently it tried, found on a shooting range, t seems unharmed, so it has not been fired against a plate. This being a test round to see if the sabot detaches...... can very well be a lead filled one to simulate the weight.

 

Fun fact, if we go 40/43 that round was around for such a short time, implying it was fieled with the ferdies at kursk. Which is around the same time, the order arrived to return all Tungsten cored rounds from arsenals to be re used in the tooling industrie. This is related to the deals with Portugal and Spain, main Tungsten sources for Germany being turned over.

ST version hardly would get even 200mm (comparing that 75mm pzgr 40 ST had bad penetration and it main propose was taking down fast lightly armored targets)

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do remember they said pzgr40/43 IF POSSIBLE, which means there is a chance they might have used something else, after all it doesn't look to be shaped like either of those with how it's more of a football. At this point we're just calculating given some specifications and whatever else we could scrounge up. we essentially had to rediscover history as a community to even get this to this point.

 

So, what else could this round be if that is the case?

 

I dug up a picture, this has some 88 shells in it, i think it looks more like a regular AP round with the back shaved down.

 

tankgervsuk.jpg

 

EDIT; holy **** i just looked at our proof image again, it doesn't even seem to be an 8.8 round AT ALL!

 

fqj7tl2o.jpg

 

Look to the right of the shell, that one is an 8.8 sabot. the sabot bases themselves should be the same size as the barrel diameter. now look back to the 12.8, it is not the same diameter as the shell, i believe what we have here is actually a 10.5 cm shell being used as a core. this would make more sense anyways, as the sabots are often only a step-down from the gun you're using. a downgrade to a 128 is a 105.

Edited by Ruslan_DR
  • Upvote 1
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, that said.... Do you think we can calculate the penetration and ballistics of a 10.5 round? Because that's what the one pictured is. it is clear that the 8.8 is far too small to be the core.

 

Essentially we're applying the same ballistics idea, to a different shell. We've already done the math, and the one shown is either a Pzgr 40/43| OR a pzgr 39 for the 10,5 which can be seen on the tiger 2 10,5's gun, then we apply the same kind of velocity formulas we did before, re-calculate using new shell weight.

 

it seems as though this one is made of Pzgr 39 by the looks of it, though, but that's more of a guess.

Edited by Ruslan_DR
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, that said.... Do you think we can calculate the penetration and ballistics of a 10.5 round? Because that's what the one pictured is. it is clear that the 8.8 is far too small to be the core.

 

Essentially we're applying the same ballistics idea, to a different shell. We've already done the math, and the one shown is either a Pzgr 40/43| OR a pzgr 39 for the 10,5 which can be seen on the tiger 2 10,5's gun, then we apply the same kind of velocity formulas we did before, re-calculate using new shell weight.

 

it seems as though this one is made of Pzgr 39 by the looks of it, though, but that's more of a guess.

We would need more data about 105mm APCR, in game like US APCR its under-preforming a little bit (T44 had about 350mm when in game have only 270mm...).

technically speaking 105mm core should allow for ~380mm threshold min.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Live.WT Moderator

Mod. 1944 is the IS-2 variation with the non-stepped upper front plate. In the same way the IS-2 Mod. 1943 is the official designation for the stepped plate version. Adding new ammunition to the M46 didn't make it a new tank, neither would adding APDS to the Maus. Why does it magically apply to the IS-2?

 

Because the mod44 never had available and never used BR-471D? It doesn't make sense to add an ammo option that the real tank never had and then say it's still the "same tank." It would make more sense to add the IS-2M as a BR 6.7 or 7.0 tank right after the mod44 in the tree, as a stepping stone between the mod44 and the IS-3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...