tanks/vehicles Experimentaleintwicklung Kampfpanzer Keiler (leo 2 EARLY, EARLY prototype)

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

EDIT: Anyone know of anyone who might make this a signature thing? Might help get more notoriety!

 

If nobody's given you an answer yet, go hit Carrier_ up.

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/78070-carriers-signature-workshop/page-85

 

He makes most of the signatures around here if they weren't made by Maniacal before him. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

I think if this thing got a slot it would be modelled so that it could be killed frontally by any of the Tier 5s.  Not an issue.  I say put it in.

[JackTheRipoff 68]

Yes +1

[igeticsu 3,400]

I have to say no, just because if we get this, then russians and americans will get something to "balance" it out.

thats not the way gaijin works, mate. We got the T10M even though it has no fair match

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

thats not the way gaijin works, mate. We got the T10M even though it has no fair match

And the IS4

[xoonZG 141]

Lets see:

UFP-193mm (50mm at 75 degrees)

LFP-102mm (59mm at 55 degrees)

Side-40mm 

Top-20mm (Hello HE)

Bottum-19mm (HE is love)

 

 

A direct upgrade from the Leopard 1 then, might work, if the gun isn't to powerful.

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Where is the evidence for this? The Germans pulled out of the MBT 70 in '69 as far as I'm aware when did they develop the leopard 2 prototype because from all my research it was untilbpost 1970 which is the cut off?

"Work on a national development was started in 1970 by Krauss-Maffei. A year later, a choice was made for it to be based on the earlier Experimentalentwicklung (later named Keiler) project of the late sixties (itself derived from the vergoldeter Leopard or "gilded Leopard"), instead of being a modified MBT-70 or Eber. The name of the design was determined in 1971 as "Leopard 2" with the original Leopard retroactively becoming the Leopard 1. Seventeen prototypes were ordered that year (only sixteen hulls were built)."



For the record I am not against this tank on its own I am against the power creep it represents. The leopard 1 is perfectly capable of killing all Russian tanks, I don't have a problem at least neither do any of my friends I use America and not the m69 either I've killed t10s with my m46. The leopard is one of the best tanks in game if you know how to use it.

Now this power creep is a problem it allows America to get the xm1 Britain to get better Chieftains at the moment the mk3 will be fine but later variants get faster and stronger, the Russians will get the t72 I know it has Composite and that it currently a no no but we all know that will change if this power creep continues. Ylu will struggle a lot more with a prototype Leo 2 against a t72 than you are atm against a T10m. Edited November 10, 2015 by *swanseasean96

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Where is the evidence for this? The Germans pulled out of the MBT 70 in '69 as far as I'm aware when did they develop the leopard 2 prototype because from all my research it was untilbpost 1970 which is the cut off?

"Work on a national development was started in 1970 by Krauss-Maffei. A year later, a choice was made for it to be based on the earlier Experimentalentwicklung (later named Keiler) project of the late sixties (itself derived from the vergoldeter Leopard or "gilded Leopard"), instead of being a modified MBT-70 or Eber. The name of the design was determined in 1971 as "Leopard 2" with the original Leopard retroactively becoming the Leopard 1. Seventeen prototypes were ordered that year (only sixteen hulls were built)."



For the record I am not against this tank on its own I am against the power creep it represents. The leopard 1 is perfectly capable of killing all Russian tanks, I don't have a problem at least neither do any of my friends I use America and not the m69 either I've killed t10s with my m46. The leopard is one of the best tanks in game if you know how to use it.

Now this power creep is a problem it allows America to get the xm1 Britain to get better Chieftains at the moment the mk3 will be fine but later variants get faster and stronger, the Russians will get the t72 I know it has Composite and that it currently a no no but we all know that will change if this power creep continues. Ylu will struggle a lot more with a prototype Leo 2 against a t72 than you are atm against a T10m.

 
Yet again, people have failed me at every turn. This is NOT post 70's. The version i suggested was the 1969 model. As well as this there was the 1968 model, seen here;
 

 
LITERALLY all i had to do was google "1968 keiler prototype" to get this, how is it so difficult? 
 
Not only this, but the image showing hull layout CLEARLY DATES 1969!!!
 
EVEN THE THIRD SITE LINK.
 http://www.kampfpanzer.de/vehicles/leopard2

Experimental Development Keiler (Wild Boar)
First Appearance: 1968
Country: Germany

 

Not only this, but your POST invalidates itself.

 

"A year later, a choice was made for it to be based on the earlier Experimentalentwicklung (later named Keiler) project of the late sixties (itself derived from the vergoldeter Leopard or "gilded Leopard"), instead of being a modified MBT-70 or Eber."

 

So FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. people, please double check your information if you want to help contribute, and even if you're against it, do NOT say this is post 70's, as it was clearly NOT.

 

There may have been 16 total hulls, but the first two models were pre-1970, the ONLY REASON to get confused is because the remaining 14 were built past the date.

 

Alright, that's it. This is just getting genuinely upsetting. I looked for a less OP tank made by germany, within the timeline, and now everyone's not really helping by making unconstructive posts that CLAIM to be past the date, or otherwise say it's a "power creep" when it only has a better gun, but WORSE ARMOR THAN THE LEO 1.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

Well.... That escalated quickly :o

[sw_3 936]

I think it would be a great addition to balance out Russian and American post ww2 tanks. I would very much like to see it in game.

 

If tanks such as this one are added of course, I would be more than open for more Russian and American post ww2 tanks, possibly expand GF to a rank VI and BR 8.7 or 9.0 to make MM fair and possible. But I think having tanks like this one in game would be great!

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Yet again, people have failed me at every turn. This is NOT post 70's. The version i suggested was the 1969 model. As well as this there was the 1968 model, seen here;



LITERALLY all i had to do was google "1968 keiler prototype" to get this, how is it so difficult?

Not only this, but the image showing hull layout CLEARLY DATES 1969!!!

EVEN THE THIRD SITE LINK.
http://www.kampfpanzer.de/vehicles/leopard2
Experimental Development Keiler (Wild Boar)
First Appearance: 1968
Country: Germany

Not only this, but your POST invalidates itself.

"A year later, a choice was made for it to be based on the earlier Experimentalentwicklung (later named Keiler) project of the late sixties (itself derived from the vergoldeter Leopard or "gilded Leopard"), instead of being a modified MBT-70 or Eber."

So FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. people, please double check your information if you want to help contribute, and even if you're against it, do NOT say this is post 70's, as it was clearly NOT.

There may have been 16 total hulls, but the first two models were pre-1970, the ONLY REASON to get confused is because the remaining 14 were built past the date.

Alright, that's it. This is just getting genuinely upsetting. I looked for a less OP tank made by germany, within the timeline, and now everyone's not really helping by making unconstructive posts that CLAIM to be past the date, or otherwise say it's a "power creep" when it only has a better gun, but WORSE ARMOR THAN THE LEO 1.

So let me get this right without the over exaggerated caps lock, big letters and general raging, your suggesting the 1960 kpz-70 the German mbt 70??? That is correct yes the Keiler was the name of the post 70s this is where the confusion comes from you say Keiler when you mean kampfpanzer 70??? Is that correct?

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

So let me get this right without the over exaggerated caps lock, big letters and general raging, your suggesting the 1960 kpz-70 the German mbt 70??? That is correct yes the Keiler was the name of the post 70s this is where the confusion comes from you say Keiler when you mean kampfpanzer 70??? Is that correct?

 

I don't want to put words in his mouth.... But basically, it's a MBT hull (Which was tested in the mid 1960's, I can dig a picture up if you need one.), with a redesigned leopard turret, with the KPz. 70's gun. 

 

 

So it's a bit of a mess; essentially I think why it was developed in parallel was that it was a cheaper and possibly more effective alternative to the KPz. 70, which was pretty much a money sink. So yes, they shared many of the same parts, but no, they are not the same, and this was developed at a sooner time than the KPz. 70.

 

 

But no, I don't think he means KPz. 70; they were not the same tank. This is a KPz. 70...

[Spoiler]     [/Spoiler]

Edited November 10, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

I don't want to put words in his mouth.... But basically, it's a MBT hull (Which was tested in the mid 1960's, I can dig a picture up if you need one.), with a redesigned leopard turret, with the KPz. 70's gun.


So it's a bit of a mess; essentially I think why it was developed in parallel was that it was a cheaper and possibly more effective alternative to the KPz. 70, which was pretty much a money sink. So yes, they shared many of the same parts, but no, they are not the same, and this was developed at a sooner time than the KPz. 70.


But no, I don't think he means KPz. 70; they were not the same tank. This is a KPz. 70, and you can clearly see that they're not the same.
[Spoiler] [/Spoiler]

The only place I can find anything on this is the forum he posted and on world of tanks forums it seems a bit of a stretch of the imagination tbh the KPZ. 70 has data that they can work with tgis is all very mix natch and shoddy imo I agree Germany need a new tab but I don't thibk this is it there's not much evidence for the 1969 variants being talked about and what there is are more like references than actual data


After some digging I have found something
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Leopard-2.php

There's a part here that speaks of a new chassis under the experimental panzer section (1969) is this what you were talking about yet to dig anything on turret? Edited November 10, 2015 by *swanseasean96

[Ruslan_DR 686]

So let me get this right without the over exaggerated caps lock, big letters and general raging, your suggesting the 1960 kpz-70 the German mbt 70??? That is correct yes the Keiler was the name of the post 70s this is where the confusion comes from you say Keiler when you mean kampfpanzer 70??? Is that correct?

 

Yes, I'm just annoyed by how much dissent is in this thread and how many times i've had to reassure people. The keiler stretched from late-60's to early 70's, as the third link in the first post also supports, as well as the image. This is the EARLY Keiler model that this thread discusses. The later keiler models looked like this;

 

notice the extension of armor to above the front wheels, and differing position of headlights, which were common on later Keiler prototypes. 

 

So yes, this thread is effectively talking about only the SECOND of the prototypes, from 1969. Sorry, but, you know with having to explain it this many times you think people would have learned. Actually i'll modify the first post with a large-lettered message to read it fully.

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

The only place I can find anything on this is the forum he posted and on world of tanks forums it seems a bit of a stretch of the imagination tbh the KPZ. 70 has data that they can work with tgis is all very mix natch and shoddy imo I agree Germany need a new tab but I don't thibk this is it there's not much evidence for the 1969 variants being talked about and what there is are more like references than actual data

 

Well, they've got basic data they can work with this on... 

 

Basically just model the KPz. 70 or MBT-70 hull, ditch the hydro suspension, and swap the lower power engine and a different transmission for a top speed of 40-45 mph. I doubt it was much faster, as you can only spin a track so fast. 

 

As for the turret... The canadion Leopard 1 A3's turret looks so close that you could model that and call it a day.

 

 

 

A lot of the material exists on hard copy at national archives, Most of the time it's poorly sorted (So, it's like hunting for a needle in a hay stack.), and sometimes, yes, it is still classified (Not that anything today is threatened by such ancient technology, just that nobody has bothered to declassify it. I watched a video about it in the past where someone was describing how big of a PITA it was to go and look for this kind of info.

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Yes, I'm just annoyed by how much dissent is in this thread and how many times i've had to reassure people. The keiler stretched from late-60's to early 70's, as the third link in the first post also supports, as well as the image. This is the EARLY Keiler model that this thread discusses. The later keiler models looked like this;


notice the extension of armor to above the front wheels, and differing position of headlights, which were common on later Keiler prototypes.

So yes, this thread is effectively talking about only the SECOND of the prototypes, from 1969. Sorry, but, you know with having to explain it this many times you think people would have learned. Actually i'll modify the first post with a large-lettered message to read it fully.

And just to point out wouldn't it be easier not to call it Keiler? It became tgis post 70s correct? Before then it was called Experimentalentwicklung KPz (for the 1969 variants, atkeast from what I can find) maybe if we calirify naming the. There'd be less confusion even though the earlier project was consumed by Keiler, Keiler itself was post 1970 these prototypes may have been before them bit when you pull them all under the same banner it causes confusion

[Ruslan_DR 686]

And just to point out wouldn't it be easier not to call it Keiler? It became tgis post 70s correct? Before then it was called Experimentalentwicklung KPz (for the 1969 variants, atkeast from what I can find) maybe if we calirify naming the. There'd be less confusion even though the earlier project was consumed by Keiler, Keiler itself was post 1970 these prototypes may have been before them bit when you pull them all under the same banner it causes confusion

 

I reread the documents and you do actually have a point I didn't notice. I can't change the topic title now, or the signature, but fundamentally the late 60's project was pretty much identical to the later Keiler models. The documents themselves don't name it as a Keiler, though, but that's essentially what it is, and since specs of early 70's keilers (say, 70-71?) were the same, it broadens the research date a bit, but we're only getting the 60's model. Now that both parties have came clear it makes sense why anyone would be confused. I shall clarify in the pre-post of the first post.

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

Yeah, I would like to see the '69 "Keiler" ;) after the leopard though and maybe an A1 in between them

[BlitzkriegWulf 4,265]

 I can't change the topic title now, or the signature.

 

 

You can.  Just leave what you want it changed to at the bottom of your OP. (I'll message a mod for you so you can have it changed)

 

And Carrier_ Usually saves .PSD's of his signatures, I think. It wouldn't be too much to change a word or two, I think.

Edited November 10, 2015 by BlitzkriegWulf

[Ruslan_DR 686]

Yeah, I would like to see the '69 "Keiler" ;) after the leopard though and maybe an A1 in between them

That's what my original plan was, I was thinking if this DOES get put in, since it's a lesser-powered MBT-70, and we might eventually get that too, put it before the Kpz-70 variant, after the leo 1. Good gun upgrade, same crap armor, but more bouncy armor angles which will give the soviets a rough time for the next five hours while they figure out how to pen you.

 

You can.  Just leave what you want it changed to at the bottom of your OP. (I'll message a mod for you so you can have it changed.)

 

And Carrier_ Usually saves .PSD's of his signatures, I think. It wouldn't be too much to change a word or two, I think.

 

actually no need, go reread the pre-post and i've clarified it all. "Keiler" refers to a group of testbeds, not a specific date. 

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

it would have been either a 105 smoothbore or the 120 smoothbore, anyone found anything on which gun would be on the 69 chassis Edited November 10, 2015 by *swanseasean96

[MicroVAX 204]

If we extend to upto 1970 tanks, yes absolutly. 

Pretty much the only thing really german MBT, except the kpz70, which would fit in the before 1970 timeframe. 

As you said, it would be perfect between leo[s] and kpz70.


Full support ahead, gib already ! ;) 

[Naam54673 1,537]

Only if Gaijin is retarded enough to add the T-64.

[Ruslan_DR 686]

it would have been either a 105 smoothbore or the 120 smoothbore, anyone found anything on which gun would be on the 69 chassis

I actually looked, and though nobody states it specifically, it uses the "same gun as the Kpz-70". What does wikipedia list this as? 

It's listed as "120mm gun (KPz-70)(it is basic of the M256 120mm smooth bore cannon^{[citation needed]0}" which links to "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120_mm_gun"

 

So, my guess, after piecing this together, is that the gun used is an early production model of the L44 model, the early leopard 2's gun, which is consistent with the idea of the project leading into the leopard 2.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/M256.png

 

As can be clearly seen on the 1969 Keiler, the fume extractor is mounted in the same position, and the thickness on the front-end of the extractor is consistent with the cannon in the image;

 

Essentially, the gun you see here is basically THIS;

(i edited in the extra bits. What is seen in grey is what was removed on the later version of the gun) Essentially, the later L44 models only had metal removed to make them more lightweight and increase performance for the turret traverse.

[swanseasean96@psn 382]

I found this version apparently this is the 105mm they were considering so that would confirm the 105mm they were considering did not have the bore excavator like the L7 had