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Experimentaleintwicklung Kampfpanzer Keiler (leo 2 EARLY, EARLY prototype)


Ruslan_DR
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Want the father of the leo 2 in game? (Only the 1969 proto. Note that the new cutoff date is 1970, any vehicle of that year or after is not accepted, which is why this thread is still open.)  

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  1. 1. Want the father of the leo 2 in game? (Only the 1969 proto. Note that the new cutoff date is 1970, any vehicle of that year or after is not accepted, which is why this thread is still open.)

    • Yes
      467
    • No (explain why, we'd all like to hear.)
      56
    • Maybe, but later when it's absolutely needed
      58
    • I don't care either way.
      8


I found this version apparently this is the 105mm they were considering so that would confirm the 105mm they were considering did not have the bore excavator like the L7 had

are you trying to give us a xxxx armament? :P The first version was from 1968, and yes, it was equipped with a 105, however we want the 1969 120. As the article states (and me, reiterating in first post) several were built, 10 with 105, 7 with 120. The first version of the 120 is what we're looking at, and I've explained why the gun looks that way.

 

The first keilers used an up-armored 105, which was extra thick, but degraded turret performance, as can be seen in the third link, here;

 

"Main armament of the experimental development was a new developed 105 smoothbore gun. To support higher chamber pressure and limit vibrations, a comparatively thick gun was used. The gun has no bore evacuator, but a thick mantling on the rear part.

This design resulted in a high mass of the gun, which had a negative impact on the vehicles center of gravity and the performance of the turret drive. Because of these characteristics, the gun was not selected as future armament for any other battle tank and a more powerful 120mm model was developed instead."

 

as a result, the 120mm version which the 1969 model has was used.

Edited by Ruslan_DR
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are you trying to give us a xxxx armament? :P The first version was from 1968, and yes, it was equipped with a 105, however we want the 1969 120. As the article states (and me, reiterating in first post) several were built, 10 with 105, 7 with 120. The first version of the 120 is what we're looking at, and I've explained why the gun looks that way.

The first keilers used an up-armored 105, which was extra thick, but degraded turret performance, as can be seen in the third link, here;

"Main armament of the experimental development was a new developed 105 smoothbore gun. To support higher chamber pressure and limit vibrations, a comparatively thick gun was used. The gun has no bore evacuator, but a thick mantling on the rear part.
This design resulted in a high mass of the gun, which had a negative impact on the vehicles center of gravity and the performance of the turret drive. Because of these characteristics, the gun was not selected as future armament for any other battle tank and a more powerful 120mm model was developed instead."

as a result, the 120mm version which the 1969 model has was used.


Yes you are right after looking deeper I can see the '69 used the 120

Can always have 105 before the 120 aswell but let's leave that for a later date Edited by *swanseasean96
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Normally I would say no simply because it doesn't fit into a ww2 game......but since they extended the timeline so much and simply because germany has no real good T5 tank other than the Maus....sigh...why not?

 

 

Altough..if this every get's introduced it will surely be countered by an even better and modern soviet tank so......why bother?

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Normally I would say no simply because it doesn't fit into a ww2 game......but since they extended the timeline so much and simply because germany has no real good T5 tank other than the Maus....sigh...why not?


Altough..if this every get's introduced it will surely be countered by an even better and modern soviet tank so......why bother?



This is in the current cut-off of 1970 so the Russians would get tanks inside herr anyway why not give Germany the best they can get before the cut-off date, the Russians will get a T-62, British get Chieftain probably Mk 3 but at most Mk 5, America get the M60A1 everyone's happy
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This is in the current cut-off of 1970 so the Russians would get tanks inside herr anyway why not give Germany the best they can get before the cut-off date, the Russians will get a T-62, British get Chieftain probably Mk 3 but at most Mk 5, America get the M60A1 everyone's happy

 

But would it be the best the germans can get before the cut-off-date?

 

I mean we are talking about the first leo2 prototypes which had more in common with the Leo1 then with the later Leo2s.

 

 

Just look at the armor layout..the thing would be probably even more vulnerable than the Leo1.

 

 

 

So in ingame terms.....what would the Leo2 Keiler offer over the Leopard 1? The only thing that "might" be better are the after penetration damage effects IF it gets a 120mm gun....but given that those shoot apdsfs and heatfs it probably won't deal that much more damage regardless.

 

So how would it be any better than a Leo1?

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But would it be the best the germans can get before the cut-off-date?

 

I mean we are talking about the first leo2 prototypes which had more in common with the Leo1 then with the later Leo2s.

 

 

Just look at the armor layout..the thing would be probably even more vulnerable than the Leo1.

 

 

 

So in ingame terms.....what would the Leo2 Keiler offer over the Leopard 1? The only thing that "might" be better are the after penetration damage effects IF it gets a 120mm gun....but given that those shoot apdsfs and heatfs it probably won't deal that much more damage regardless.

 

So how would it be any better than a Leo1?

 

For one, look at it's armor layout. If only your turret is exposed, or the TOP of your hull, there isn't a SINGLE flat angle that they can penetrate, and things will generally ricochet at every opportunity.

 

Now, concerning the gun, sure, you'll get an improvement in pen but what you have to think about is the actual SIZE.

 

Let's say, compare a 75mm to a 37mm gun. 37mm at tier 1 is a fair match, but introduce a bigger gun firing the same type of ammo at the same vehicles, and suddenly you can oneshot them from ANY angle.

 

so, really it's the size of the shell that will matter, likely increasing spall damage.

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Moved to Further discussion.

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But would it be the best the germans can get before the cut-off-date?

I mean we are talking about the first leo2 prototypes which had more in common with the Leo1 then with the later Leo2s.


Just look at the armor layout..the thing would be probably even more vulnerable than the Leo1.



So in ingame terms.....what would the Leo2 Keiler offer over the Leopard 1? The only thing that "might" be better are the after penetration damage effects IF it gets a 120mm gun....but given that those shoot apdsfs and heatfs it probably won't deal that much more damage regardless.

So how would it be any better than a Leo1?

If heat gets re modelled where it can ricochet the 120 may make all the difference Edited by *swanseasean96
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For one, look at it's armor layout. If only your turret is exposed, or the TOP of your hull, there isn't a SINGLE flat angle that they can penetrate, and things will generally ricochet at every opportunity.

 

Now, concerning the gun, sure, you'll get an improvement in pen but what you have to think about is the actual SIZE.

 

Let's say, compare a 75mm to a 37mm gun. 37mm at tier 1 is a fair match, but introduce a bigger gun firing the same type of ammo at the same vehicles, and suddenly you can oneshot them from ANY angle.

 

so, really it's the size of the shell that will matter, likely increasing spall damage.

 

I still don't see how this is any beter than a Leopard 1. Lot's of whens and ifs in your statement.

 

The turret is in ingame terms one huge shottrap, the ufp is heavily sloped...but presents only a relatively tiny frontal area......you'll just get penetrated in the LFP which will be the same as with the Leopard 1 = instakill because of ammorack.

 

Firepower...might be better...might not be better. Tiger 2 105mm has more punch than the Leo1 so as long as we don't get an APHE round along with it....chances are that it will be lacking in post penetration effects.

 

 

 

Now don't get me wrong...I am not opposed to this tank at all. I just think it won't be any better than what we have already. What we'd need are tanks like the t-54....highly mobily with armor that can reliably take a few hits when playing peek-a-boo and with a gun that has enough punch to kill/cripple targets with less than 10 shots!

 

 

Honeslty...if they'd finally fix the Leopard 1 to something approaching historical performance.....(meaning make the gun about 10 times more deadly  and the tank twice as mobile) that would already be enough imho.

Edited by Bombastikus
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I still don't see how this is any beter than a Leopard 1. Lot's of whens and ifs in your statement.

 

The turret is in ingame terms one huge shottrap, the ufp is heavily sloped...but presents only a relatively tiny frontal area......you'll just get penetrated in the LFP which will be the same as with the Leopard 1 = instakill because of ammorack.

 

Firepower...might be better...might not be better. Tiger 2 105mm has more punch than the Leo1 so as long as we don't get an APHE round along with it....chances are that it will be lacking in post penetration effects.

 

 

 

Now don't get me wrong...I am not opposed to this tank at all. I just think it won't be any better than what we have already. What we'd need are tanks like the t-54....highly mobily with armor that can reliably take a few hits when playing peek-a-boo and with a gun that has enough punch to kill/cripple targets with less than 10 shots!

 

 

Honeslty...if they'd finally fix the Leopard 1 to something approaching historical performance.....(meaning make the gun about 10 times more deadly  and the tank twice as mobile) that would already be enough imho.

 

I've oneshot t-54's with my leopard through their frontal plates before, and since this uses APFSDS, as seen in one of the prototype photos, (hell we could ask Rheinmetall themselves, they have a website.) it would have more pen which means you could go straight through the turret and detonate their ammo just as easily as they can yours. AS for the turret design, yes it's a shot trap but so is the soviet's mantle, I shot HE in there and they die all the time.  However, 3/4 angles which they will likely hit when you're on a hill with the LFP covered, will always pretty much result in a bounce. The bigger gun, as I said, causes more post damage because of the size of the round,  and as in the example, those guns are roughly the same size apart, 37-75mm is 38mm difference, while the 10.5 to 120mm is basically 19.5 difference. You'll note how easy it is to kill the same kind of target with a bigger gun all the time. It's really not too hard once you get it down.

 

Not sure if this has been mentioned (your original post asks for help with the turret)  isn't it essentially the same turret and the leo1A4 Leopard_1A4_main_battle_tank_German_army

 

It COULD be, but there's also a problem with that theory, the turrets are SIMILAR, but not identical. On the canadian C3, and most leo 1a3/4 series, the point on the nose of the turret consists of two bent plates, where the keiler's consists of a single plate on top, and two on the bottom. Other than that, I will admit everything else does seem to be sufficiently similar. Rangefinder covers, shape, smoke placement, it is all essentially identical, but we do not know the thickness of the plate on top of the gun mantle. Perhaps it might be just the largest armor value listed for that area on the 1A4?

Edited by Ruslan_DR
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Bump, ANYONE who is AGAINST this suggestion should really retthink what they're saying.

 

GERMANY ONLY HAS 2 DECENT TIER V VEHICLES, (Maus, and Leo 1)

 

Add this, and Germany will be equal to the Americans. But not the Russians :P

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I've oneshot t-54's with my leopard through their frontal plates before, and since this uses APFSDS, as seen in one of the prototype photos, (hell we could ask Rheinmetall themselves, they have a website.) it would have more pen which means you could go straight through the turret and detonate their ammo just as easily as they can yours.

 

Here's the thing though...I shouldn't neet the Keiler for it.

 

A Leopard 1 firing APDS already SHOULD go through a T-54 pretty much everywhere be it UFP or turret. Saying we need a 120mm gun just because they nerfed the L7 APDS to ridiculous levels and add a high RNG bounce chance on top of it......idk but I'd rather they fix the broken penetration values and broken penetration mechanics.....just saying.

 

Again..not against the tank....just saying that it will add relatively little and that a correclty working Leopard 1 would be more than good enough, a Keiler with fixed game mechanics might be even slightly too good.


 

 

GERMANY ONLY HAS 2 DECENT TIER V VEHICLES, (Maus, and Leo 1)

 

Considering the game meta and how underperforming the Leo1 is, imho they have only one decent Tier V vehicle and that's the Maus.

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Here's the thing though...I shouldn't neet the Keiler for it.

 

A Leopard 1 firing APDS already SHOULD go through a T-54 pretty much everywhere be it UFP or turret. Saying we need a 120mm gun just because they nerfed the L7 APDS to ridiculous levels and add a high RNG bounce chance on top of it......idk but I'd rather they fix the broken penetration values and broken penetration mechanics.....just saying.

 

I am of the same opinion.  I am all for adding the Keiler into the game.  But if Gaijin would just FIX the leopard 1's APDS post pen damage and up its mobility to historical levels it would be a far more even game at tier V.  However, with the penetration buffs the L7 got in this patch I think its penetration is more than enough for now. 

 

At the same time however the major problem that Germany is facing at tier V is a lack of competitive vehicles to vs the soviets.  The US/Germans (and soon the UK) combined are enough to provide an answer at every level but individually the germans are hopelessly outmatched.

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I am of the same opinion.  I am all for adding the Keiler into the game.  But if Gaijin would just FIX the leopard 1's APDS post pen damage and up its mobility to historical levels it would be a far more even game at tier V.  However, with the penetration buffs the L7 got in this patch I think its penetration is more than enough for now. 
 
At the same time however the major problem that Germany is facing at tier V is a lack of competitive vehicles to vs the soviets.  The US/Germans (and soon the UK) combined are enough to provide an answer at every level but individually the germans are hopelessly outmatched.



The real problem is as you said enough vehicles. The Maus and Leopard do well but that's only two. The 105 tiger some compare to an IS2 the panther is a good talk don't get me wrong but it doesn't compete with a T10, the JagTiger is fine imo.

The same problem existed with America aswell remember, before the Patton 2 get Heat it couldn't compete all they had was the M60,M103. This got fixed before Germany for some reason.

Britain I fear will have the same problem it's more to do with Russia having so many Top tier tanks in game it kinda makes it easy for them they have 7 all fairly able to kill other T5s
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I am of the same opinion.  I am all for adding the Keiler into the game.  But if Gaijin would just FIX the leopard 1's APDS post pen damage and up its mobility to historical levels it would be a far more even game at tier V.  However, with the penetration buffs the L7 got in this patch I think its penetration is more than enough for now. 

 

I may be enough..it may be not. Point is what they did wasn't historical...they just nerfed a couple ww2 apcr rounds and buffed a couple post ww2 ap rounds to make them look better.

 

It is so far from a historical approach I want to punch someone in the face. (anyones guess who)

 

 

And post penetration effects are the whole bane of the Leopard 1 tank. You need to aim AND HIT (which isn't assured without all upgrades) exat points wheras anyone from T3 upward with APHE rounds can hit and kill/cripple you ANYWERE.

 

Missing the ability to do the same is what's killing this tank.

 

 

Honeslty....I am just fearing that if they ever introduce the Keiler...it will just be the same lame assed attempt that was the Leopard 1. There just is no love for german tanks whatsoever and you can see it perfectly on the leopard. That tank appears half finished.

 

"Three painjobs" which are basically the same texture just differently coloured as is done in photoshop or gimp in 2 seconds, not even a single good looking cameo.

Transmission is all all wrong. Looks like they just copy/pasted the Panther 2 transmission and tweaked it a bit...as a result->

The mobility is all wrong.

HESH doesn't work as it should
APDS is a joke needlegun

Frontal ammorack is never empty even if you only have 2 shots left.

Gun sounds like a BB gun. It's so unimpressive I want to yawn every time it fires.

 

In short...someone was told to make a Leopard 1 for the game and they did only the absolutely necessary minimum....no love whatsoever. Only one who did a good job on it was the guy/gal doing the 3d model.

Edited by Bombastikus
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Again..not against the tank....just saying that it will add relatively little and that a correclty working Leopard 1 would be more than good enough, a Keiler with fixed game mechanics might be even slightly too good.


 

Considering the game meta and how underperforming the Leo1 is, imho they have only one decent Tier V vehicle and that's the Maus.

 

I get your point, but on top of the slightly better improvements, this is basically the same level of upgrading from T-54 early to t-54 late, where armor was improved, and the turret. However, in addition to this, it means that T-54 players essentially get "two lives", which is what this will add on top of it's meager improvements. When each vehicle only gets one spawn, it is important to have more top-tiers that are reliable.

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I get your point, but on top of the slightly better improvements, this is basically the same level of upgrading from T-54 early to t-54 late, where armor was improved, and the turret. However, in addition to this, it means that T-54 players essentially get "two lives", which is what this will add on top of it's meager improvements. When each vehicle only gets one spawn, it is important to have more top-tiers that are reliable.

 

Well...I do hope this get's implemented....but since the protoypes came with 105 and 120mm guns...don't be too disappointed if we only get a copy past 105mm L7 gun on it.

 

It's still a german tank...meaning if there are two options...they go with the crappy one.

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