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Initial Production Tiger I [100] of the 502nd and Early Production Tiger Is


*AceArchangel
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Early model Tiger H-1  

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  1. 1. Should the Initial Production Tiger I [100] be added to War Thunder?

    • Yes, under the main research tree
      150
    • Yes, as a purchasable premium
      124
    • No, I do not agree
      15
  2. 2. Should an Early Production Tiger I be added to War Thunder?

    • Yes, under the main research tree
      75
    • Yes, as a purchasable premium
      15
    • No, I do not agree
      4


Hello everyone,

 

Today I would like to suggest the possible addition of a premium and/or standard tank to the German research tree, the Early production Tiger H-1, specifically the Tiger H [100] variant from the Siege of Leningrad, as it was visually distinct from other later Tiger H-1's.

 

This Tiger is also special in that it was the first completely intact Tiger I tank that was captured by the Soviet forces during Operation Spark in January 1945 outside of Leningrad, unfortunately the fate the Tiger is unknown at this time.

 

The initial production Tiger I [100] of the 502nd Heavy Panzer Battalion, Leningrad Sector 1942

elite-armor-decal-set-initial-tiger-1-50

A render of the Initial Production Tiger H-1 [100] (note the distinct side mounted storage boxes, and the absence of any armoured side skirts)

 

The reason I believe this vehicle would make a nice addition is the fact the tank not only looks different visually but also physically from the placement of the turret's storage boxes, one on either side rather than a single one located at the rear. Also there is an absence of any armoured skirting, two forward facing headlamps and the colour of the tank adopting the early German factory grey scheme as opposed to the later yellowed brown, even the placement of the tools located on the vehicle are different from the later models of Tiger.

This tiger also utilized the Maybach HL 210 engine which was less powerful than the HL 230 in the later Tiger H1 and Tiger E currently in the game. This reduced the on road and off road traverse speed, along with likely reducing the turret traverse rate as well. This is why I believe the BR for this vehicle should be at 5.3 to try and fill out a little more of the German 5.0-5.3 BR range which is also a little lacking. This is why I think they could also add a standard Early Production Tiger I into the main research tree and add Tiger I [100] as a purchasable premium, or in a separate bundle. The non premium Early Tiger I could Possibly be the variant that used a Pz.III storage box mounted to the rear of the turret, fun fact some early production Tigers were equipped with the first 100 Krupp turrets produced, these had a distinct cut out at the bottom right corner of the turret mantlet. This was done to allow clearance for raised sections at the back of the Porsche chassis as 100 turrets were produced before a chassis was selected. This is extremely hard to notice but is noticeably present on a famous Tiger notable for being an early production Tiger that was modified to the E standard, Tiger 131. And to the best of my ability after looking at line drawing (as per WobblyBat's post below), I can say that I firmly believe Tiger [100] was also one of these to mount one of the first 100 Krupp turrets on the Henschel chassis.

 

Blueprint of Tiger [100] Showing the Porsche Turret - Courtesy of WobblyBat

Spoiler

tiger100-drawing.jpg

See above to compare with the red square on the picture below

2flHrOp.jpg

 

Example of the Porsche Turret on a Henschel Chassis

Spoiler

the-tank-museum.jpg

See above to compare with the red square below

2flHrOp.jpg

 

Early Production Tiger I example (Not Tiger 100)

Spoiler

88472b13e856f7cbe8554ed80bea3182.png

An example of another early production Tiger I equiped with a Tiger I Henschel Turret and a Panzer III storage box, also note the snorkle located to the rear use for fording rivers.

 

The specific vehicle I am referring to is the one with the production number 100 identified on the side mounted turret storage boxes, this tank was used as a command tank among the 502nd Heavy Panzer Battalion, the battalion emblem of which is present in the first image above (an emblem that presently exists in the game). During Operation Spark on January 14 1943, Tiger 100 was the became the first Tiger tank to be captured by the Soviet forces, surprisingly completely intact and undamaged, this tank was swiftly moved for evaluation at the Kubinka Experimental Armour Facility, where it was extensively examined and tested, and can be seen in various images (within the spoilers below), and is very well documented as it was the first tank of its type that the Soviets would subject to examination and testing which would help them better counter the new infamous German heavy tanks on the battlefield. I think the addition of this tank would be not only a fun novelty, as there were so few of the Tiger H-1's that were serviced in this configuration, but also a good addition to the middle tier of the German research tree.

 

This early variant of the Tiger H-1 fought primarily on the Eastern Front during it's initial servicing in 1942, notably present in the Siege of Leningrad. These early Tigers were fielded as per Adolf's impatient orders, before the design could be further refined, as seen with the later Tiger variants. As such, Inevitable faults in the initial design allowed the Soviets to capture a number of vehicles over the entirety of the war, the first and best documented being Tiger 100. This gave the soviets an advantage much earlier in the war, to study the aspects of the vehicle and provide useful information, which would prove to be vital in the development of the later T-34 variants, the IS tank family, and many other Soviet tank designs.

 

Soviet Inspection Photo

Spoiler

Zhukov_at_the_Tiger_tank.jpg

An example of an early production Tiger H-1 captured and under inspection by Soviet forces (note one of the distinct side mounted storage boxes)

 

Combat Photo

Spoiler

CGFvpN5.jpg

An early production Tiger H-1 in it's winter camouflage (note the number 100 on the storage box)

 

Captured Photo

Spoiler

elite-armor-decal-set-initial-tiger-1-50

Another example of a captured early Tiger H-1 (note the frontal mounted tracks)

 

Rear Photos

Spoiler

6039209473_d2741deb5e_z.jpg

5045201972_5dd87310d6_z.jpg

Two photographs of the same early Tiger H-1 (note the lack of an air filtration system, exhaust covers, one removed side storage box and oddly absent rear mud guards)

 

And well you can never have enough Tigers am I right? For some reason I prefer the layout of this model and I don't know why. Anyway tell me what you think below, and if you can link any relevant info about the tank that would be great.

 

Cheers!

 

TJ

 

Reference Material

 

Edited by *AceArchangel
Added Poll for First Production Tiger I
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Sounds good to me for a premium.

 

I'd also like to see those dischargers (or whatever they are) removed from the current H-1, they get in the way of the turret rotation. You would think they would be removed before a battle.

Edited by Antiquarian
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Sounds good to me for a premium.
 
I'd also like to see those dischargers (or whatever they are) removed from the current H-1, they get in the way of the turret rotation. You would think they would be removed before a battle.


Ya this Tiger also does away with the odd air filters located at the back of the tank next to the exhaust, it also scraps the exhaust covers from what I recall. It just looks cool.

Edited by AceArchangel
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...

I agree totally. This first production batch  tiger 1  would be a fantastic WT Premium.  I would buy it instantly.  I requested this in WOT years ago and it was ignored. With exception of the 2 tiger I in the WT game, the entire tiger 1 family is amazingly forgotten. So many Shermans , T34's in the game but only two tiger I. There are so many beautiful camouflaged tiger skins out there it is a shame for only 2 tanks to chose from.   Also now since rockets are in the game what about a Sturm Tiger as well..

 

This Woolly Mamouth 502 tiger 100  that was captured in Leningrad would make a great anniversary premium commemorative. I hope the war Thunder Developers are paying attention and respond to this thread, thank you.

Edited by krazyKraut
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tech tree please gemany needs more heavy genreal tree tanks. and plus 2 early tiger 1's are already premium  so we have 4 tiger 1's in the game at the moment and this would fit perfectly going into the h-1

Edited by *seadogpirate
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Thank you for the support guys, and I do agree there are so many King Tigers and only two Tiger I's and this Tiger is different enough to warrant a premium spot especially given the Germans are a little lacking in the 5.0 - 6.0 heavy tank department. Not to mention it just looks freak'n intimidating. And hey we have the early production King Tiger with the porsche turret in the main line why not add this, it would be a shoe in.

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perhaps a decorative option to put the tiger H

I also like to have the decorative option to take off the mudguards of the kingtigers and jagdtiger

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perhaps a decorative option to put the tiger H

I also like to have the decorative option to take off the mudguards of the kingtigers and jagdtiger

Interesting proposition, that could work, although this then would open the door to many other vehicles like the mentioned King/Jagdtigers...etc having this option, which takes a lot of extra work and time. Not to say I wouldn't like to see it happen.

Edited by *AceArchangel
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... Lamps... Lamps... LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPS... crazy? It took Ages to get them removed from the H1 because they blocked the guns and mostly were removed before going into combat (afaik)...

 

also in regards of skirts... 've seen pics of those early Tiger I H1 (Es actually... H1 was more or less still part prototype) with skirts... e.g. this tiger is supposed to be at Leningrad

02530.jpg

also in Tiger I and its variants there are pics labeled to be from June 42 with with skirts which predates their arrival at Leningrad (btw again no Lamps)

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... Lamps... Lamps... LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPS... crazy? It took Ages to get them removed from the H1 because they blocked the guns and mostly were removed before going into combat (afaik)...

 

also in regards of skirts... 've seen pics of those early Tiger I H1 (Es actually... H1 was more or less still part prototype) with skirts... e.g. this tiger is supposed to be at Leningrad

02530.jpg

also in Tiger I and its variants there are pics labeled to be from June 42 with with skirts which predates their arrival at Leningrad (btw again no Lamps)

There were a couple different serviced variants of Tiger's that fought in the Leningrad sector some however were revised to accommodate many of the issues and keep in mind the Siege of Leningrad took place between 1941 and 1944 those photots could have possibly been mislabelled. Also the tank that I have suggested would have been the Initial production variants which were serviced in the configuration that they were in, regardless of later changes, unless retrofitted.

 

And I don't thing the lamps will cause any issues as the barrel will likely just clip through it anyway as it is purely cosmetic at the moment

Edited by *AceArchangel
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1) Tiger and its variants is quite trustworthy... also without the skirts there is something missing...

2) the siege of Leningrad may have lasted from 41 to 44 but the first Tigers appeared there in autumn 42... meanwhile hte Pics in Tiger I and its variants (whcih was written by one of the most renowned researchers in this field, Walter J. Spielberger, gives a pic from June 42 with skrits... and even on pics from that timeframe that i saw wihtout skirts the wholes to put them on where there... so on other pics it's possible that they ismply got torn off (e.g. during combat) and then were painted over

3)

And I don't thing the lamps will cause any issues as the barrel will likely just clip through it anyway as it is purely cosmetic at the moment

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuL6cJPz3Nk

 

here ya go...

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/159588-getting-tired-of-the-first-tigers-headlights/

've been there... lamps of indestructible krupp bosch adamantium... gun cant pass through... there should be quite a bit more threads about this... too lzay to seach all of them

Edited by RohmMohc
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*Snip*

The early Tiger H-1 models were in fact produced without skirts, like I said. I am not discrediting your source of which you notably omitted from your first post, I was merely trying to think of any possibilities, as errors happen we are human. Whenever they appeared in Leningrad is academic and think of it in the same light as the Porsche turret Tiger II, even though they changed the design of the tank as it was in development the ones that had already been produced were fielded, so these Tiger H-1's were likely built before the change but were fielded as they had already been produced, which means these could have very well been on the battlefield in Leningrad at the same time as the skirted Tigers that had a different layout. That is the most likely answer here and non the less still makes these early model Tiger H-1's special.

Proof that they were not shot off:

No Skirts

Spoiler

07470.jpg

Early tiger that I have proposed. Note the smooth siding with no skirts.

10oicl5.jpg

Another Picture of a separate Tiger (121) initial production variant. Again note the smooth siding and that this one has a single Pz. III rear storage box.

 


Skirts Shot Off or Removed

Spoiler

dde79fa98a8598ab20b2ad7cd2263b2f.jpg

Standard Tiger H-1 with skirts shot off. Note the large metal bits that stick out to hold the skirts on.

 

Skirts Unattached From The Assembly Line

5220ef2451dc931ddfdb5f46de4ed6ae.jpg

Again note the large metal pieces that stick out of the hull to hold the skirts on.


Anyway I could care less if the headlamp were added or not, that is no reason to think anything less of this topic, and the fact that headlamps stop the turret from moving is baseless, maybe in 2014 when that post was made but I've never had that issue ever.

Edited by *AceArchangel
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H1 Prototype-

 

13274389575_cc3a1e81cb_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

#1-FIRST PRODUCTION batches, These tanks were more or less pilot models and were really improved finalized versions of the prototype. These would be the very first tigers to be seen in Leningrad. Tiger 100 that was captured in Leningrad is one of these First production Tanks. Note-Some model companies and internet sources tend to incorrectly classify this tank as an initial or early. Please see #2 and #3 classifications below for those two correct versions.  ( Side note, in War thunder as of this post we do not have this tank)

 

 

new%20scan%2018.jpg

 

 

Note Box on these kit labeled this as initial production actually it is a First production

6600bt.jpg

 

 

 

tiger100-drawing.jpg

 

HL 210 Maybach engine

Snorkeling capabilities

no side skirts,

narrow diamond tread plate front fenders

no exhaust shields,

different tow cable layout,

no transport track removal cable,

different tool layout,

two pistol ports on the turret,

no factory bin designs, but feild designs were developed. *tiger 100 saddle bins. or the PZIII bin fitted like the tank above

no sprocket removal hoist reinforcement bosses on front plate tips

no S mines 

no fifel system

Rear hull plate antenna base mount 

non hinged short rear mud flaps

German Soft skin hinged convoy blackout light fitted to rear 

Mantlet w/o gunner scope armor mound

Simple cold weather starter plate

 

#2-INITIAL PRODUCTION, several of these tanks were seen in Russia, many were also sent to DAK, many of the same features as above, but had some improvements from the first batch design. An example of this tank would be the one that was captured by the US army and was in APG, and currently in Ft. Benning  (Side note- as of this post another one not in war thunder yet, would be nice in DAK colors..) 

30w4bxi.jpg

 

 

 

IMG_3017.jpg

Two pistol ports,

HL210 engine

Snorkeling

Side skirts developed, had a bend in the center of tank

Rear mudflaps still unhinged and short but had end piece that connected the rear flap to the side skirt

Exhaust heat shields developed, Several versions existed from round to square with vent louver slits pressed in

Factory Spare track rack designs and were found on front hull and lower hull angle rear plate

Factory designed short turret bin developed / fitted

S mines trajectors hull deck

Fifel system

Top deck tow cables in tradition configuration

Side hull cable fitted

Different rear engine hatch layout

Traditional tool layout 

Narrow diamond plate front fenders

Headlights moved from top deck *For Africa units only IICR

Mantlet may or may not have the extra gunner's scope armor

 

#3-EARLY PRODUCTION, Some changes started to be made to the tank's design. An example of this tank would be the 131 in Bovington .  (  Side note **In War Thunder this tank we have labeled h1)

s-l1600.jpg

 

 

 

maxresdefault.jpg

HL210 still fitted on some tanks, but HL230 began to be seen at this point

Snorkeling 

Fifel system

1 Pistol port and one escape hatch on turret now found on turret

Round exhaust heat shields fitted

Straight bend less side skirt design now used

Front fenders are now two piece and wider with hinged portion

Rear mudflap are now longer, with hinged side flap... and can hinge upward

S mines trajectors X5 on top deck

Spare track racks found on some units

Mantlet armor was also becoming more common. 

Tube convoy light replaces soft skin flip light

Turret spare track racks make an appearance

Large standard rear bin design is finalized

Cold weather starter plate is redesigned and is more advanced

sprocket hoist bosses are now standard

 

#4-MID PRODUCTION, This version was an attempt to simplify the design and was also a traditional period. Many unnecessary features were dropped at this point. Side note (not in war thunder yet)

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-299-1805-16,_Nord

 

 

HL230 engine used as standard at this point

Drum copula begins to be phased out with low profile AA mount copula

No More Snorkeling

Road wheels still rubber rimed, but begin to be phased out with steel wheels

Zemmirite is seen at this point

Small rear idler wheels are seen, but most tanks still have the large rear idler wheel

Smaller muzzle break for 88mm begins to be seen, but many tanks are still fitted with older large pattern break

early pattern Round Sprocket hub is seen on many units, but flat star pattern hub begins to make an appearance

No more S mines on hull

Turret mounted smoke grenades are still found on some units, but several begin to replace the external tubes with the internal turret launcher

Corner mounted turret air blower is still seen on tanks with older style smoke launchers, but center mounted blower begins to make an entry along with the corner launcher

Turret roof periscope begins to make an appearance

Rear hatch design changes b/c no fifel, also the large intake is phased out with the smaller round intake *Due to removal of snorkeling. Some tanks still have large unit present, but again is a phase out period

Thicker loader's hatch is developed, like other features old pattern hatches were still present on older units

Headlight was moved to center of front plate on a bracket, and only one is used. Some tanks however are still seen with older twin top deck layout 

Rear main gun travel lock makes an appearance 

Track replacement cable design is simplified, older units are still seen however. 

rear starter plate is redesigned again and is much more elaborate, and makes an entrance, again older early pattern units were still to be seen.

 

#5-LATE PRODUCTION, This is the final evolution of the tiger. This version is what would have been seen in the latter portion of the war I.E. Normandy. A surviving example would be the tank in Samur. (*  Side note-In war thunder this tank we also have and is labeled as E)

 

tam_35146_title.jpg

 

tiger-tank-munster.jpg

 

Steel Wheels now standard

Low profile copula standard

Thicker loader's hatch now standard 

Center turret blower / corner launcher is now standard

Small idler wheels standard

Small rear engine hatch intake standard

Small muzzle break Standard

Turret armored roof plate is standard

Turret track racks, mostly standard

Center single headlight now standard 

No more tool rear box

Zemmirite now found on most units 

HL230 Standard

Rear travel lock mostly standard 

internal Wood fuel tank protectors common

Late pattern track cable standard

Late pattern cold weather starter plate standard

 

Then there are the oddities

 

#6-STURMTIGER, Started off as a early production tiger I hull, that was factory rebuilt to late specs which include HL230 engine,and Steel wheels, no fifel, or snorkeling. Front hull was altered to have a armored hut and 88mm and turret were replaced with a 380 mm RW 61 rocket launcher L/5.4 . Used for Artillery to destroy fortifications

 

#7-BERGETIGER, This is one vehicle that to this day experts / historians / engineers debate on it's actual purpose.

 

What is known is that it was a one off field modification of a Mid Production Tiger I, It was encountered in Italy. It featured a large winch on the turret rear, and a make shift overhanging crane style boom over the turret and connected to the mantlet. 

 

As for it's purpose it's speculative between an ARV, Demolition vehicle, Or and engineering vehicle. 

 

#8-Off shots-Finally there are a few rare black sheep vehicles that are mostly one style of tank, but feature some characteristics from superseding production variants. This was most likely done either in field by maintenance crews, or were partially rebuilt at the factory.    

Edited by krazyKraut
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tech tree please gemany needs more heavy genreal tree tanks. and plus 2 early tiger 1's are already premium  so we have 4 tiger 1's in the game

Seadogpirate,   We only have  two tiger 1 in the game (tiger h1 & E) both are not premiums.  You are mistaking the premium Porsche tiger and the new Tiger II H sla 16 for Tiger 1 tanks. They are not technically.  But i do agree with you,  more heavy tanks in the German tree would be great as well.

Edited by krazyKraut
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Seadogpirate,   We only have  two tiger 1 in the game (tiger h1 & E) both are not premiums.  You are mistaking the premium Porsche tiger and the new Tiger II H sla 16 for Tiger 1 tanks. They are not.

there is also the VKwahtever but thats not buyable

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i also read another thing about the init tiger compared to the later versions

it had 2 tracks ... one for each side

 

the later models used 1 track for both side but on 1 side it was backwards

 

init                later versions

>>>>>          >>>>>

[       ]            [       ]

>>>>>          <<<<<

 

 

if this is the case, this means that both tracks had to be kept separate

 

im not sure the source is accurate

Edited by s_39
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