How about this for a 'what if'.....

[balderz002 221]

What if, in the same universe, the Soviets didn't get their hands on a B-29, or get their hands on British jet engines.........

How do you think those two points would've affected Russia's military development, and more importantly, affected the direction of the cold war?

[nelsondx 958]

What if, in the same universe, the Soviets didn't get their hands on a B-29, or get their hands on British jet engines.........

How do you think those two points would've affected Russia's military development, and more importantly, affected the direction of the cold war?

Welp..no good MiG-15. The VK-1 was a good engine, direct copy of the Rolls Royce Nene, I think it would become less effective.

Edited June 11, 2016 by nelsondx

[P8triot 3,894]

Considering their intelligence network I highly doubt they would not have gotten the information eventually.

 

Considering their own engineers were a very capable bunch they could have also independently researched to that technological point eventually.

 

The gifting of the jet engines and the impounding of the B-29 facilitated their progression but preventing the procurement would not have stopped it.

 

Lets remember these guys were first in space and they didnt capture Wernher von Braun to get a huge jump start in rocket development like the US.

 

They were the only nation to ever successfully land a probe on Venus.  

 

It is a little simplistic to say the gifting of the jet engines and copying of the b-29s impounded were the only reason they excelled.  It would have happened just perhaps at a slower pace.  The stereotype of the simple tractor farmer building planes is just that ; a mythological stereotype with little basis in the reality of the time.  

[nelsondx 958]

The Soviets did detonate the biggest atomic bomb. 

I doubt they would copy the B-29 just like that, but they did have a vast network of informants. But..I think when they managed to, it would be a bit too late. They copied it because they impounded it, saved them time, what if they didn't impound it? Remember we are on the dawn of the piston engines and jet engines are on the rise, I'm sure they would disregard the TU-4 when they managed to get their hands on the designs, they wouldn't get them that easily I'm sure. 

[RohmMohc 11,494]

 

Lets remember these guys were first in space and they didnt capture Wernher von Braun to get a huge jump start in rocket development like the US.

no only a bunch of other german scientists that worked with him iirc

[fufubear 6,705]

I honestly don't think it would have made all that big of a difference.

[Nope 10,634]

Getting that stuff through lend-lease was the safest option, but Russia could have done without as people said. Remember, they also captured German turbojets, so they didn't have a complete dead end.

[Guest]

Well, the MiG 15 would've used the same engine fitted in the MiG 9's, which was essentially a more reliant, higher RPM Jumo 004's, though if it was fitted in the MiG 15 I imagine it would've underseen massive modifications, perhaps, even, the MiG 15 would see some remodelling to fit the engine on the wings, as was originally planned in the first draft.  This most likely would've given a massive upper hand to the Sabres in combat, they already had many advantages alone, take away the VK-1 and you've got a vehicle without any of the good characteristics that made it able to compete with the Sabre. The big climb rate and superior acceleration would've been ruined, and so it wouldn't have been able to compete with the Sabre. 

 

That said, the Jumo 004's reverse engineered engines would've undergone reliability improvements, as Soviet intelligence already knew the metal composition the British were using in their fan blades before they even had the VK-1 engine. 

 

I do think, though, that the MiG-15s getting annihilated would've been a massive wakeup-call for the Soviet Union, and production for a new jet engine would've sped up massively. Or, perhaps, even, the Soviet Union would've denied backing the DPRK in the Korean War until a new, combat-capable engine was ready. Who knows, just a few theories.

[ToxicSight 888]

Considering their intelligence network I highly doubt they would not have gotten the information eventually.

 

Considering their own engineers were a very capable bunch they could have also independently researched to that technological point eventually.

 

The gifting of the jet engines and the impounding of the B-29 facilitated their progression but preventing the procurement would not have stopped it.

 

Lets remember these guys were first in space and they didnt capture Wernher von Braun to get a huge jump start in rocket development like the US.

 

They were the only nation to ever successfully land a probe on Venus.  

 

It is a little simplistic to say the gifting of the jet engines and copying of the b-29s impounded were the only reason they excelled.  It would have happened just perhaps at a slower pace.  The stereotype of the simple tractor farmer building planes is just that ; a mythological stereotype with little basis in the reality of the time.  

You are right. But didn't Soviets put everything they had into it? They sacrificed everything to be a single step ahead in cold war.

[Guest]

 

 

Considering their intelligence network I highly doubt they would not have gotten the information eventually.

 

 

 

 

But it would've taken them years, and possibly wouldn't even have been their intelligence network who would be gathering it, eventually the British would've sold the engine to someone, and in this alternate history, it wouldn't have been the Russians, though whoever did have the new engine most likely wasn't as secure or aware of intelligence programs as the UK was/is, so the Russians would've got the engine anyway. 

 

 

Considering their own engineers were a very capable bunch they could have also independently researched to that technological point eventually.

Perhaps, but you must remember this capable bunch had their life on the line. Stalin didn't like failures, and people who failed, didn't ever get another chance to win. Because of this, many Soviet engineers weren't willing to make risks like the U.S was. Also, the Soviet engineers, while capable, severely lacked by up to almost a decade in their Jet technology. The quality of metal used to create the engines also was very poor.

 

 

Lets remember these guys were first in space and they didnt capture Wernher von Braun to get a huge jump start in rocket development like the US.

Werhner von Braun was a genius, and was extremely talented, that is true. But saying he gave the U.S a huge jumpstart is just false, von Braun understood little about orbital increments and his knowledge of stabilization was very poor - He was trained by the U.S for years before becoming part of NASA. 

 

t is a little simplistic to say the gifting of the jet engines and copying of the b-29s impounded were the only reason they excelled.  It would have happened just perhaps at a slower pace.  The stereotype of the simple tractor farmer building planes is just that ; a mythological stereotype with little basis in the reality of the time.  

 

 

I will agree with this. Soviet technology is not given enough credit for what it achieved, and are often portrayed as farmworkers, which is a shame, as the USSR Pioneered a lot of technology.

 

Considering their intelligence network I highly doubt they would not have gotten the information eventually.

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Guest

[P8triot 3,894]

 

 

 

But it would've taken them years, and possibly wouldn't even have been their intelligence network who would be gathering it, eventually the British would've sold the engine to someone, and in this alternate history, it wouldn't have been the Russians, though whoever did have the new engine most likely wasn't as secure or aware of intelligence programs as the UK was/is, so the Russians would've got the engine anyway. 

 

<snip>

 

 

People dismiss how effective their intelligence network truly was.  It took the Soviet Union until 1949 to get the Atom Bomb or about 4 years after learning of its possibility.    However, when the  US developed the Hydrogen Bomb and had its first test  on November 1, 1952; the soviet Union had stolen the technology so fast it had its first test on August 12, 1953.  A time period of about 9 1/2 months!  

 

As to specifically the jet engines:  The soviets asked for and received a tour of the British jet manufacturing facilities prior to getting gifted those engines.  The soviet officials that toured those plants were given special shoes with soft rubber heels that picked up milling debris from around the lathes and other machines.  So the soviets already had the metallurgy and chemical composition of the jet components.  If the British had not gifted the jets to them the soviet scientists  could have sped up reverse engineering the samples to achieve a jump in jet technology anyway.

[Guest]

 

 

As to specifically the jet engines:  The soviets asked for and received a tour of the British jet manufacturing facilities prior to getting gifted those engines.  The soviet officials that toured those plants were given special shoes with soft rubber heels that picked up milling debris from around the lathes and other machines.  So the soviets already had the metallurgy and chemical composition of the jet components.  If the British had not gifted the jets to them the soviet scientists  could have sped up reverse engineering the samples to achieve a jump in jet technology anyway.

I said that here:

 

 

 

That said, the Jumo 004's reverse engineered engines would've undergone reliability improvements, as Soviet intelligence already knew the metal composition the British were using in their fan blades before they even had the VK-1 engine. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Guest

[P8triot 3,894]

I said that here:

I missed that, I apologize.