tanks/vehicles Pz. Kpfw. I Ausf F (potential Tier 1-2 German premium)

[CVB_Zuikaku 469]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Flexo said:

Maybe it's a bit to late but do you know that the 7.92 SmK(H) bullet can pen. up to 18-19 mm of armor at 100m? And some sources say it can go even up to 20mm at 500m. So what's the problem to make the whole Pz Kpfw I line as a reserve? 
 

SmK(H) was in use till 1943.

If you need to find more info at:
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/ringbuchinfanterie.pdf
https://pl.scribd.com/document/167749155/M-Dv-170-2-Merkbuch-uber-die-Munition-fur-die-2cm-Flak-Madsen-1942
 

Yeah, been trying to say that myself to everybody who says the Panzer 1's can't do anything.

[King_Bruce_Lee 125]

Well You said "13" and most sources about SmK(H) say "20". That 7mm of pen. makes a difference - and i can say that as an ex-military and a turner. 

My sec. post since 2013. Nice.

[CVB_Zuikaku 469]

1 minute ago, Sir_Flexo said:

Well You said "13" and most sources about SmK(H) say "20". That 7mm of pen. makes a difference - and i can say that as an ex-military and a turner. 

My sec. post since 2013. Nice.

13mm at 100m was for the regular AP rounds, since nobody could find any data on the APCR that did the 20mm at 100m and possibly 500m. 

[King_Bruce_Lee 125]

12 minutes ago, Vrox11Z said:

possibly 500m. 

Imagination. Everybody has it. But in that 18-20mm at 100m with a bullet that has a wolfram core i can belive. Still a standard 7.62x39 fired from an AK(AKM) can pen. a rail (14-16.5mm).

Edit: and there are 4-5 different types of the SmK(H).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Sir_Flexo

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

3 hours ago, Sir_Flexo said:

Maybe it's a bit to late but do you know that the 7.92 SmK(H) bullet can pen. up to 18-19 mm of armor at 100m? And some sources say it can go even up to 20mm at 500m. So what's the problem to make the whole Pz Kpfw I line as a reserve? 
 

SmK(H) was in use till 1943.

If you need to find more info at:
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/ringbuchinfanterie.pdf
https://pl.scribd.com/document/167749155/M-Dv-170-2-Merkbuch-uber-die-Munition-fur-die-2cm-Flak-Madsen-1942
 

 

I should point out that that particular round wasn't necessarily designed with engaging armored targets in mind, but rather for engaging infantry behind cover, but I guess it works against light armor.  As for the other types of SmK ammo, as far as I'm aware most of the other variants were AP-T rounds rather than pure AP.

 

Only problem is that unless there's at least a few such rounds in the default belt that comes with the tank (or the tank is a premium and all the ammo belts are available from the start), this still makes the Ausf. F's armament anemic.  Still, as I said earlier, ramming is a viable alternative (if one can build up enough speed to do so, considering this thing's lackluster top speed).

 

Of course, if the lack of decent armament is still an issue (no matter what kind of ammo it's shooting, they're still rifle-caliber machine guns), then there's still two viable alternatives, in the form of either the upgunned Panzer Is armed with 20 mm Breda autocannons used by the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War...or the Panzer I Ausf. C, which the Ausf. F was derived from (while it only has 30 mm of armor to the Ausf. F's 80 mm, it's significantly more mobile and is armed with the more powerful EW 141 semi-automatic AT rifle).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Z3r0_

[King_Bruce_Lee 125]

59 minutes ago, Z3r0_ said:

Only problem is that unless there's at least a few such rounds in the default belt that comes with the tank (or the tank is a premium and all the ammo belts are available from the start), this still makes the Ausf. F's armament anemic.  Still, as I said earlier, ramming is a viable alternative (if one can build up enough speed to do so, considering this thing's lackluster top speed).

 

So if you had a chance to spray a T-26 with a belt fed 2xmg13 with 1/3 (1/4?) AP you would rather ram it?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=84321

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Flexo said:

 

So if you had a chance to spray a T-26 with a belt fed 2xmg13 with 1/3 (1/4?) AP you would rather ram it?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=84321

 

It'd be more of a last resort for use against targets that the MGs can't penetrate, as part of the problem with this thing is that because it's so ridiculously well-armored for a vehicle of its size, it'll probably get tiered high enough that it'll encounter several vehicles that its guns can't even scratch when fired at point blank range into the rear, and just hunting SPAAGs isn't always a viable option in a vehicle with a 25 km/h top speed.

[King_Bruce_Lee 125]

I agree that F is a bad idea in the normal tech tree - maybe as a premium/event as the Po-2. But still they should add ausf.A/B.

[_SKELATOWOR_ 75]

On 24/02/2017 at 09:44, Sir_Flexo said:

I agree that F is a bad idea in the normal tech tree - maybe as a premium/event as the Po-2. But still they should add ausf.A/B.

looks like im your man

i made a suggestion for just those tanks

[PrussianOwl 442]

The weak armament may be a bit of a problem, but it would likely be a decent reserve. Would be right at home at BR 0.7. +1 support

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Looks very cute, even if it has rather weak armament, I‘d still love to drive around in one. +1

[Ghostmaxi 873]

If Gaijin would use the Demarr formula JUST for the 7.92 x 56 mm Ap-T (rl : S.m.K Lspur. -v- ) and Ap-I (rl: P.m.K. -v- ) wich 1. stand for Spitz mit Kern Leuchtspur -Verbessert- ( higher velocity (905m/s)) and Phosphor mit kern verbessert (again a bit fater 860 m/s) than they would have 17.85 and 17.35 mm of pen that is more realistic , since the pz 1 could penetrate the t 26 from close and the Ap-I and Ap-T are in the Standart Tank Mg belt for the germans

Edit: anyone noticed my Pic? its me!

and here are some informations what ammo was used with some stats : Microsoft Word - Die Patrone 7 Entwurf 2.docx - DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf

Edited June 7, 2019 by Ghostmaxi

[craenker 104]

The "-v" ammunition was restricted to Luftwaffe (aircraft) use. The normal armor piercing (no tracer, incendiary or something) should be around 12,5/13mm at 90°/0m. Tracer or incendiary filling takes nearly 50% of the bullet and will reduce the penetration significant. And yes, I know that this actually isn't considered ingame. Thanks to this we can play star wars in rank 1/2 fleet...

 

Personally I think the Pz !c is more suitable. But maybe we will see an expansion of of rank 1 towards zero? 

[Ghostmaxi 873]

On 08/06/2019 at 23:13, craenker said:

restricted to Luftwaffe (aircraft)

That WAS the case but i somewhere have read it later was given to the Wehrmacht and , i took the informations from the game and looked what ammo it is , aparently Gaijin knows that the ammo was also given to the Wehrmacht or they just dont care

[craenker 104]

Maybe. All I know is, thatin 1944 the Luftwaffe stop using them in flexible weapons. 

[Ghostmaxi 873]

The pz 1 could penetrate the t 26 from 150m , I read that somewhere with the spanish , with the normal Ap-T and

Ap-I rounds and cince in game are only the -v- rounds wich are faster and can penetrate a bit more I am pretty sure the stats in game for the ammo is wrong. But I made an own topic , there we could discussion About the 7.92x57 mm ammo

[CARLOCCM 19]

You have to consider that in War Thunder there is no infantry so the Infantry Support role also doesn't exist. This tank would be below 1.0 because it has no offensive armament, just 2 secondary mashine guns. If there is a variant of the Panzer I with a 20mm autocannon it would be great to have it as 1.0/1.3, but tanks or tankettes with no cannons can't be in a tank combat game... 

Of course in the war it was useful, but in the game there are no artillery positions, anti tank positions, trenches, mashine guns positions and infantry pelotons to destroy, just enemy tanks/tankettes... (look at the tiny italian and french 20mm manual gun mounted in tankettes...)

 

-CCM

On 08/06/2019 at 22:13, craenker said:

The "-v" ammunition was restricted to Luftwaffe (aircraft) use. The normal armor piercing (no tracer, incendiary or something) should be around 12,5/13mm at 90°/0m. Tracer or incendiary filling takes nearly 50% of the bullet and will reduce the penetration significant. And yes, I know that this actually isn't considered ingame. Thanks to this we can play star wars in rank 1/2 fleet...

 

Personally I think the Pz !c is more suitable. But maybe we will see an expansion of of rank 1 towards zero? 

I would like very very much that Gaijin adds a "-1" tier or another part of the game that is centered from ww1 to the interwar period... So we can play the first fighters and bombers and the first tanks. It would be also great the addition of infantry

[Zombificus 793]

It’s worth considering the rate of fire the Pz.I’s MG34s have. The Flak 30 used by the Pz.II has a rate of fire of 280 RPM in WT, whereas the MG34 has 800-900 RPM if a late model, or 600-1000 RPM if an early model.

 

Given that the Pz.I F is a late 1942 tank, it would have the late model MG34 with either 800 or 900 RPM (the slightly higher ROF could be a modification?) which is around triple the Pz.II’s fire rate. Whether it’s using the normal 13mm AP rounds or the special 18mm AP belts, the Pz.I F won’t be able to penetrate everything, but what it can pierce will be utter Swiss cheese. 

 

I’m in favour of this tank as a 1.0 German heavy because it would be a seriously different experience both to play and to fight. It’s basically impenetrable to most 1.0-2.0 tanks, but it’s tiny and has a small crew so most penetrating hits will OHK it; meanwhile, it can’t penetrate most of its enemies, but when it does penetrate it should be able to deal quite a lot of damage.

 

It’ll be an excellent capture point guard because it’s likely to survive a surprise enemy push long enough for backup to arrive, but its poor speed and armament should prevent it from abusing its ludicrous protection to spawncamp the enemy team into submission. Other than waiting in ambush positions or holding zones, its small size should help it flank to a degree, and if it takes a more remote route around the map, it could very well show up in a very unexpected spot and wreak some havoc.

 

Would it be great? Probably not. Would it be fun? Absolutely. At the end of the day, I think this Baby Tiger has a really unique balance of armour to armament and would be one of the most interesting tanks in the game.

 

Whether or not it’s individually good in 1v1s, it could seriously shake up the meta just by being on the team. How would an Allied team react to a tank they can’t easily kill but can’t easily kill them? Would they focus on it, potentially giving the Axis team an opening to counterattack, or would they ignore it, possibly giving the Pz.I F an effective angle to attack from?

 

A player could potentially do quite well and be useful to their team in the Pz.I F without even getting a kill. Shooting out enemy gun barrels and tracks could earn it assists while tipping the odds in its team’s favour, whereas being a sheer distraction could itself give its team openings while the tank itself could net a nice sum of SL from getting Adamant. Add in the fact that it can kill several of the weaker reserve and 1.0 tanks from the front and will shred AA trucks and light TDs and you can start to see this tank’s place in the game.

 

Also worth thinking about is the fact that although there are no current Scout vehicles under 2.0, there’s a few weak, relatively low-AP vehicles like the Italian L3/33 and French AMR ZT-3 which, like the Pz.I F probably would, often struggle in fair 1v1 fights. These vehicles could be Tier I’s scouts, and the Pz.I F could join them.

 

Again, I don’t think it would be great on an individual basis, but its effect on the meta and its team would still make it a useful and worthwhile vehicle to start Tier I. Given scouting, it could genuinely shine in a support role, and even without that it would open up entirely new tactics to Tier I players. I’d love to see this wonderful tank in the game. 

[craenker 104]

10 hours ago, Zombificus said:

which is around triple the Pz.II’s fire rate.

20mm: ~145g/round

7.92mm: ~13g/bullet

[Zombificus 793]

27 minutes ago, craenker said:

20mm: ~145g/round

7.92mm: ~13g/bullet

Yeah, projectile mass is definitely considerably worse, but the Pz.I’s ROF is still ~3x the Pz.II’s, even if its burst mass isn’t. I’m not saying it’s going to be anywhere near as good for damage, but hosing down the crew with the MGs would be a viable strategy, so long as it can penetrate. It would take a bit more accuracy and knowledge of the enemy tank on the player’s part, but that’s what protection analysis, test drive and custom battles vs AI are for. 

[Solarmod 1,204]

+1 as a top tier 0 vehicle

[Matt_82 1,096]

It would be something new to tier 1 and that's not something we get to say very often so +1.