I-185 (M-71) - why is this thing BR 4.7?

[danblaze 144]

45 minutes ago, *sardinha08 said:

Except for US Bf109 F-4  I use it in my 5.3-6.3 lineups without any problem, it's great to kill 6.0s by out turning them.

 

Premium reference is cheating.

How nice would it be to be able to fly Mk IIb's, p39's, La -7s and cannon stangs knowing your not making a sub optimal choice though? I can't even fly the mk 9 or 16 because the damn f4's are all up on my cheeks.

[danblaze 144]

1 hour ago, *sardinha08 said:

Except for US Bf109 F-4  I use it in my 5.3-6.3 lineups without any problem, it's great to kill 6.0s by out turning them.

 

Maybe to say the better climbers can out turn the F4 isn't quite technically correct, but instead out spiral climb them. Or out chandelle them.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

2 hours ago, danblaze said:

Premium reference is cheating.

How nice would it be to be able to fly Mk IIb's, p39's, La -7s and cannon stangs knowing your not making a sub optimal choice though? I can't even fly the mk 9 or 16 because the damn f4's are all up on my cheeks.

There's not much of good fighters in US T4, so I have to use the premium F-4. When you squad with friends and they say 3.7 there's only one option right? (or two, F-4 and F-4/trop)

2 hours ago, danblaze said:

Maybe to say the better climbers can out turn the F4 isn't quite technically correct, but instead out spiral climb them. Or out chandelle them.

I actually said the opposite, F-4 out turns them all.

[danblaze 144]

1 hour ago, *sardinha08 said:

There's not much of good fighters in US T4, so I have to use the premium F-4. When you squad with friends and they say 3.7 there's only one option right? (or two, F-4 and F-4/trop)

I actually said the opposite, F-4 out turns them all.

 

I'm implying other planes can out duel it. That turn rate is an inferior quality to climb rate in duels.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

6 hours ago, danblaze said:

I'm implying other planes can out duel it. That turn rate is an inferior quality to climb rate in duels.

I never felt I was flying an inferior plane every time I used my F-4 in my 6.0 lineups(I think it's the third best US plane at that br after F8F-1B and US Spitfire LF Mk.IX), and they usually don't last that much to the point they can use their climb rate against it, as I call it, the giant killer.

[PARAMI 478]

7 hours ago, danblaze said:

 

I'm implying other planes can out duel it. That turn rate is an inferior quality to climb rate in duels.

You must not know what you're talking about. The plane's rudder is incredibly powerful. It easily outturns spitfires and can even keep up with dedicated turnfighters in the right hands.

[danblaze 144]

4 hours ago, PennyWort said:

You must not know what you're talking about. The plane's rudder is incredibly powerful. It easily outturns spitfires and can even keep up with dedicated turnfighters in the right hands.

 

Admittedly I'm not very experienced in duels. However, If i'm flying anything but a M71 and I'm at equal footing with the f4 at 4.7 or below, I'm worried. But...with the monster climbing planes (better than F4's) just simply spiral up, or chandelle seems to work fine?

 

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the G-14 with 1 20?

 

Edit - actually this might be a bad example. The G's are kinda crap, only climbing better at high speeds, and way worse at steeper angles.

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the LF Mk 9 or bearcat if they only had the one german 20?

Edited February 22, 2017 by danblaze

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

28 minutes ago, danblaze said:

 

Admittedly I'm not very experienced in duels. However, If i'm flying anything but a M71 and I'm at equal footing with the f4 at 4.7 or below, I'm worried. But...with the monster climbing planes (better than F4's) just simply spiral up, or chandelle seems to work fine?

 

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the G-14 with 1 20?

 

Edit - actually this might be a bad example. The G's are kinda crap, only climbing better at high speeds, and way worse at steeper angles.

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the LF Mk 9 or bearcat if they only had the one german 20?

F-4 is not a better plane than F8F-1B or Spitfire LF Mk.IX like I said in my previous post.

v

4 hours ago, *sardinha08 said:

I never felt I was flying an inferior plane every time I used my F-4 in my 6.0 lineups(I think it's the third best US plane at that br after F8F-1B and US Spitfire LF Mk.IX), and they usually don't last that much to the point they can use their climb rate against it, as I call it, the giant killer.

But I'm not afraid of facing any other higher BR Bf109 with F-4, cause I know I can out turn all of them. I actually spawn F-4 many times after being killed by a tier IV Bf109 cause I know I will get them if they try to dogfight me.

If you know there's better climbers why would you follow them in a spiral climb? Why would anyone follow a Spitfire LF Mk.IX in a spiral climb? Unless you have a big energy advantage at start.

[danblaze 144]

14 minutes ago, *sardinha08 said:

F-4 is not a better plane than F8F-1B or Spitfire LF Mk.IX like I said in my previous post.

v

But I'm not afraid of facing any other higher BR Bf109 with F-4, cause I know I can out turn all of them. I actually spawn F-4 many times after being killed by a tier IV Bf109 cause I know I will get them if they try to dogfight me.

If you know there's better climbers why would you follow them in a spiral climb? Why would anyone follow a Spitfire LF Mk.IX in a spiral climb? Unless you have a big energy advantage at start.

 

I'm more interested in what the [100] guy thinks at this point.

 

But why do you concede that the LF and bearcat are better planes? Is it because their guns are superior? No...What does that leave us with? Do you think it might be because they can out climb you?

 

So when you see them you're just going to have to leave them alone to spawn camp you, or die.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

40 minutes ago, danblaze said:

I'm more interested in what the [100] guy thinks at this point.

Really??? Maybe we're flying different planes. Although I'm a PS4 player and use a controller I fly with [100] guys many times, including PennyWort. I'm pretty sure it was you I spared in some of those times.

40 minutes ago, danblaze said:

But why do you concede that the LF and bearcat are better planes? Is it because their guns are superior? No...What does that leave us with? Do you think it might be because they can out climb you?

Cause I fly with them everyday, all three in my US 6.0 lineup, I have more than 1400 kills just on the US version of Spitfire LF Mk.IX and I'm on my way to 1000 kills with F8F-1B. All three are great fighters and like I said, in my opinion, the three best US fighters you can use at T4(although F-4 is T3). F8F-1B is fast, has great guns 4x20mm M3(that just got a little nerfed a few days ago), has a great roll rate, when flying fast turns great vertically, Spitfire LF Mk.IX aka Spacefire, maybe the best climb rate in game, can out turn most planes including F-4, good guns when they work, my favourite plane in game when guns are working, both when flying properly can be untouchable, like F-4. F8F-1B guns are way superior to F-4, I just don't say the same about the Spitfire LF for two reasons, I spent half a year with nerfed Hispanos and cause you can add gunpods to the german F-4s, also the german 20mm is great and nose mounted. If you try to dogfight a F-4 with a F8F-1B, you'll most probably will lose, with a Spitfire you'll probably win. Winning a dogfight is not just about turn rate or climb rate, it's about using the strengths of your plane against the weaknesses of your enemy's plane.

40 minutes ago, danblaze said:

So when you see them you're just going to have to leave them alone to spawn camp you, or die.

Actually no, I can try to side climb and if they dive on me, it depends which plane and what they will do, F8F-1B would probably not dogfight me after I dodge him and reverse it, and will climb again, I can try to get him while he's climbing, Spitfire LF MkIX might try to dogfight me, so I would first also dive to gather more speed cause Spitfire stiffen with speed and only then I would dogfight him. I don't like to fight in the furball.

Edited February 22, 2017 by *sardinha08

[danblaze 144]

12 hours ago, danblaze said:

turn rate is an inferior quality to climb rate in duels.

 

This statement is obviously true. This is why the M71 is a better plane than the F4.

 

If Flip in a M71 dueled Flip in a F4, I would have to think he wins at least 80 percent of the time in the M71.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

14 minutes ago, danblaze said:

turn rate is an inferior quality to climb rate in duels.

Maybe that's why no one wants to dogfight against Zero's.
 

19 minutes ago, danblaze said:

This statement is obviously true. This is why the M71 is a better plane than the F4.

Obviously not for the above and like I said in my first post about it, I would never run from a I-185 M-71 while flying an Bf109 F-4. 

As for the rest you have to ask flip, he's great with any plane.

 

[Tigerspook 315]

44 minutes ago, *sardinha08 said:

 

Obviously not for the above and like I said in my first post about it, I would never run from a I-185 M-71 while flying an Bf109 F-4. 
 

 

And the F-4 can choose to run when it is time to run. The I-185 cannot.

[danblaze 144]

15 minutes ago, Tigerspook said:

 

And the F-4 can choose to run when it is time to run. The I-185 cannot.

 

Pretty sure the I -185 is faster, but it wouldn't need to run if the engagement started with equal energy levels and equal altitude.

 

(stat card says it can go 744 km/h)

 

There's a good reason biplanes aren't sitting at 6.3...

Edited February 22, 2017 by danblaze

[Tigerspook 315]

4 minutes ago, danblaze said:

 

Pretty sure the I -185 is faster, but it wouldn't need to run if the engagement started with equal energy levels and equal altitude.

 

 

Perhaps I am mistaken... I could be having PTSD from spading the thing. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Tigerspook

[Silo_fx 78]

I found the difference between stock and spaded was night and day in this plane. Struggled initially and then hammered once spaded. I like the plane. I think at 4.3 it would be too strong. Well, it would be strong in the right hands anyway. 

One of its strengths is its profile is very small and hard to hit from behind. Assuming you know how to avoid giving the enemy a good deflection shot, its hart to hit.

TBF I have not flown since the recent DM tweaks. 

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

34 minutes ago, danblaze said:

 

Pretty sure the I -185 is faster, but it wouldn't need to run if the engagement started with equal energy levels and equal altitude.

 

(stat card says it can go 744 km/h)

 

There's a good reason biplanes aren't sitting at 6.3...

From it's wiki page:

Pros and cons of the plane

Pros

• Once engine injection upgrade has been purchased, the plane has a brutal climb rate (30 m/s)
• 3 20mm cannons have decent amounts of ammo and do the job (note, central cannon has more ammo than the side cannons)
• Great roll rate
• Maneuverable

Cons

• Not a turn fighter
• Top speed is nothing special

 

As for Bf109 F-4:

Pros and cons of the plane

Pros

• Nimble- compared to Russian and American counterparts
• Relatively good armament
• Relatively good climb rate, possibly as good as a Spitfire or a maxed out P39 Aircobra
• Good sustained turn
• Faster than most opponents, such as the Spitfire mk.V, Yak-3, and La-5, especially at altitude
• Good performance at medium altitudes

Cons

• Overheats quickly
• Additional armament can reduce performance critically, especially in a dogfight
• Poor cockpit visibility
• Prone to catching fire in a chase with a bomber
• Gun pods can't load stealth belts, thus giving the user away in a surprise attack.
• Turns sluggishly at speeds under 190km/h

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

44 minutes ago, danblaze said:

 

Pretty sure the I -185 is faster, but it wouldn't need to run if the engagement started with equal energy levels and equal altitude.

 

(stat card says it can go 744 km/h)

 

There's a good reason biplanes aren't sitting at 6.3...

If you compare both plane stats in War Thunder Assistant app, you'll find that I-185 is faster but has worse turn rate and... climb rate.  

[danblaze 144]

Stat cards aren't always accurate, but I've tested the climb rates and the M71 stomps the F4, especially going at a 375 km/h sustained climb. The only planes that can do this are usually pretty damn fast in my experience.

 

This thing has a monster engine, it's been hard to escape in my D30 in RB - I feel pretty safe asserting the M71 is faster without testing.

 

[sidchicken 721]

21 hours ago, danblaze said:

especially going at a 375 km/h sustained climb

Different planes have different optimal climb speeds.  If the 185 climbs best at 375 kph ias, you need to compare that against the F-4 at its best climb speed, which I believe is closer to 250.

[danblaze 144]

9 hours ago, sidchicken said:

Different planes have different optimal climb speeds.  If the 185 climbs best at 375 kph ias, you need to compare that against the F-4 at its best climb speed, which I believe is closer to 250.

 

From my tests, the F4 climbs at the same rate at 270 as it does at 300.  Arcade is a little different than RB and I think the wiki pages on the planes show RB numbers. (such as optimal climb speed) I'm fairly confident it's optimal climb speed is between 270 and 300, but my tests are a little sloppy, and the difference was too small to tell.

 

I only have two different speeds tested on the M71, and at 300 it beats the f4's 300 by 4 seconds going from an altitude of 2000 to 5000, which I think is it's best speed. But...even at 375 km/h it's climb rate is pretty much exactly the same as the F4's 270 - 300 number.

 

So, if you ever see the F4 creeping up from behind with a better energy level, a shallower angle will create the separation faster, fwiw.

Edited February 24, 2017 by danblaze

[PARAMI 478]

On 2/22/2017 at 11:10 AM, danblaze said:

 

Admittedly I'm not very experienced in duels. However, If i'm flying anything but a M71 and I'm at equal footing with the f4 at 4.7 or below, I'm worried. But...with the monster climbing planes (better than F4's) just simply spiral up, or chandelle seems to work fine?

 

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the G-14 with 1 20?

 

Edit - actually this might be a bad example. The G's are kinda crap, only climbing better at high speeds, and way worse at steeper angles.

Do you think the F4 is a better plane than the LF Mk 9 or bearcat if they only had the one german 20?

Um, in terms of flight performance, the f4 can come very close to competing with those monsters. It can definitely outperform the 109 gs, although it's not as fast. The f4 just has an insane amount of energy retention and an incredibly powerful rudder. Combine those two factors, and it can very easily defeat the lf9 and the bearcat, provided that the f4 plays to its strengths. It by no means can defeat those two from an energy standpoint, but it can easily outturn the bearcat and *sort of* keep up with the lf if you utilize energy well. 

[danblaze 144]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:27 AM, PennyWort said:

It by no means can defeat those two from an energy standpoint 

 

Not sure what this means.

 

is it not an energy standpoint at the start of a duel? ( in custom battles)

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by danblaze
added in custom battles

[danblaze 144]

It seems to me that the difference between a good player and a bad player is that the good player can utilize a speed and climb rate advantage, whereas the rookie only knows how to use turn time and guns.

 

If I told the guys in RB that plane A has a better climb rate, higher top speed, and equal energy retention, but plane B can out turn it, then asked which plane should have a higher battle rating, I'm pretty sure they'd say A.

 

That being said, I did try to outduel a few F4's yesterday in my M71 and got torched.  But I'm pretty sure it's just pilot error.

[danblaze 144]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:27 AM, PennyWort said:

Um, in terms of flight performance, the f4 can come very close to competing with those monsters. It can definitely outperform the 109 gs, although it's not as fast. The f4 just has an insane amount of energy retention and an incredibly powerful rudder. Combine those two factors, and it can very easily defeat the lf9 and the bearcat, provided that the f4 plays to its strengths.

 

So I guess you're saying, "fine, perhaps these planes can climb better and are faster, but not by enough of a margin." Maybe you're right. I'm still convinced I'm just making some tactical mistakes at this point...

Edited February 25, 2017 by danblaze