I-185 (M-71) - why is this thing BR 4.7?

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

48 minutes ago, danblaze said:

Not sure what this means.

 

is it not an energy standpoint at the start of a duel? ( in custom battles)

I think what PennyWort is saying is that you cannot use speed(=energy) against the F8F-1B or climb rate(altitude=energy) against the Spitfire LF if you start with equal energy state. You also cannot use turn rate against the LF cause it will out turn the F-4.
 

33 minutes ago, danblaze said:

It seems to me that the difference between a good player and a bad player is that the good player can utilize a speed and climb rate advantage, whereas the rookie only knows how to use turn time and guns.

 

If I told the guys in RB that plane A has a better climb rate, higher top speed, and equal energy retention, but plane B can out turn it, then asked which plane should have a higher battle rating, I'm pretty sure they'd say A.

 

That being said, I did try to outduel a few F4's yesterday in my M71 and got torched.  But I'm pretty sure it's just pilot error.

The difference between a good player and a less good player is that a good player can use it's planes strengths against his opponent's plane weaknesses better. It doesn't matter if it's climb rate, turn time, speed, energy retention, guns, acceleration, etc... I usually die when I try to fight some planes at their strenghts.

F-4 is a great plane, one of the best fighters in game and capable of fighting against 6.0s so I'm pretty sure it wasn't pilot error only.

[danblaze 144]

2 hours ago, *sardinha08 said:

F-4 is a great plane, one of the best fighters in game and capable of fighting against 6.0s so I'm pretty sure it wasn't pilot error only.

 

This is B.S.

 

A perfectly flown AI bot should be able to beat the F4 no matter who the pilot is, whilst in a bearcat or M-71.

Edited February 25, 2017 by danblaze
grammar

[Touched_Grass 758]

3 hours ago, danblaze said:

 

This is B.S.

 

A perfectly flown AI bot should be able to beat the F4 no matter who the pilot is, whilst in a bearcat or M-71.

nahhhhh

[danblaze 144]

2 hours ago, _F1LTHY_M3M3R_ said:

nahhhhh

 

I've done a few more duels with this matchup and I think I got it down to where getting the 2k altitude advantage is unavoidable by the f4 pilot. Just a matter of mastering the boom and zoom now...

[PARAMI 478]

On 2/25/2017 at 3:08 PM, danblaze said:

 

This is B.S.

 

A perfectly flown AI bot should be able to beat the F4 no matter who the pilot is, whilst in a bearcat or M-71.

You still have a long way to go, boyo. I'm fairly sure that I could outturn an ai pilot flying a bearcat or i185 in almost any single engine prop in the game (okay, maybe not the firebrand). AI are just that--AI. Figure out how to use rudder and energy traps (watch long5hot's tutorials--they will aid you immensely)

[theNEGUS 78]

Think of it as a Russian FW-190, with 3 nose-mounted lasers (use Ground or Universal, Universal works the best for me for some reason- the combo of AP and HE seem to do better than full HE).

 

In short, it's a really great plane and fun to fly.

[danblaze 144]

18 hours ago, PennyWort said:

You still have a long way to go, boyo. I'm fairly sure that I could outturn an ai pilot flying a bearcat or i185 in almost any single engine prop in the game (okay, maybe not the firebrand). AI are just that--AI. Figure out how to use rudder and energy traps (watch long5hot's tutorials--they will aid you immensely)

 

I'm not referring to the AI that war thunder uses. I'm thinking more along the lines of an AI that has solved the game. So perhaps computationally impossible at this time...i.e. perhaps there isn't enough computational power at the moment to create an AI bot to beat the best pilots in war thunder in most matchups.

 

Also I should note that the optimal duel strategy for the I185 or bearcat vs F4 seems to look nothing like a turn fight, as I incorrectly hinted at earlier. It's more like...reach top speed at low altitude, gain 2 k altitude advantage, then boom and zoom and energy fight.

 

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

21 minutes ago, danblaze said:

Also I should note that the optimal duel strategy for the I185 or bearcat vs F4 seems to look nothing like a turn fight, as I incorrectly hinted at earlier. It's more like...reach top speed at low altitude, gain 2 k altitude advantage, then boom and zoom and energy fight.

I think you should test that at higher altitude cause I'm pretty sure that F-4 is even better there compared to I-185 than at low altitude.

[PARAMI 478]

On 2/27/2017 at 1:19 PM, *sardinha08 said:

I think you should test that at higher altitude cause I'm pretty sure that F-4 is even better there compared to I-185 than at low altitude.

Yup. 185 is completely countered by the f4. I'd suggest to pull the f-4 into a dogfight and try to scissor it, as you have the better rollrate. Use throttle control and flaps to force the overshoot, and then peg the f4 when it disengages. You won't win a flat turning battle against the f4 in a 185. You aren't faster, and you don't have better energy retention and climbrate. If you're in a bearcat, yes, danblaze's strategy works. The f8f is very fast in a straight line, and has comparable (probably better) energy characteristics. In both the i185 and f8f (assuming you're talking about the cannon version), take the headons--you have more armament, and in the 185, it may be your best bet to win the engagement. 

[danblaze 144]

10 hours ago, PennyWort said:

You aren't faster, and you don't have better energy retention and climbrate.

 

I think you might be confusing m-71 for m-81.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

12 hours ago, PennyWort said:

Yup. 185 is completely countered by the f4. I'd suggest to pull the f-4 into a dogfight and try to scissor it, as you have the better rollrate. Use throttle control and flaps to force the overshoot, and then peg the f4 when it disengages. You won't win a flat turning battle against the f4 in a 185. You aren't faster, and you don't have better energy retention and climbrate. If you're in a bearcat, yes, danblaze's strategy works. The f8f is very fast in a straight line, and has comparable (probably better) energy characteristics. In both the i185 and f8f (assuming you're talking about the cannon version), take the headons--you have more armament, and in the 185, it may be your best bet to win the engagement. 

I don't have many games with I-185 M-71(even on the M-82) compared to the huge number of games on both three versions of Bf109 F-4(germans F-4 and F-4/trop and US F-4) but I know how good it is Bf109 F-4 compared to even the higher BR T4 planes, that's why I use it on my 6.0-6.3 lineups with no problem. I know that I play with a weapon disadvantage compared with most T4 planes like the F8F-1B or I-185 M-71, especially the first one, but when I pick the F-4 I'm not thinking in firepower but on maneuverability, cause I know I can beat most of those other T4 planes with it(with maybe a few exceptions). They can't defeat you if they can't hit you 

 

1 hour ago, danblaze said:

I think you might be confusing m-71 for m-81.

You mean M-82 Dan.  

[danblaze 144]

I tested climb rates by started out at 300km/h at 2000m then timed the climb to 5000m at different speeds. So when WEP ends, I drop angle to match according speed, and when it kicks in, I raise angle to match the speed. I have all of these planes spaded and use "current" in test flight.

 

BF109 F4  without pods: @ 270 km/h - 1:27, @ 300km/h - 1:27

I185(M71): @ 300 km/h - 1:23, @375km/h - 1:27

F8F1B: @250 km/h - 1:26, @300km/h - 1:25, @375 - 1:28

SpitfireMk24: @270km/h - 1:50, @300km/h - 1:36, @ 375 km/h - 1:22, @ 400 km/h - 1:23

SpitfireLFMk9: @270km/h - 1:18, @300km/h - 1:15, @375km/h - 1:21

 

In this next test, I started out at 2000m and then pointed my crosshair to the specified degree angle and left it there until the plane reached 5000m.

 

F4: @20 -1:36, @30 - 1:26

M71: @20 - 1:31, @30 - 1:22

[jutland_ace 330]

I've been working on spading the I-185 (M-71) myself, and it is a real dog when stock. I just unlocked the engine injection, though, and I have high hopes that will transform it into a good plane. 

 

If the M-71's strengths lie in its climb rate and roll rate, then as a stock aircraft, it only has its roll rate, which, alone, isn't enough to give you much of an advantage at BR 4.7. Anyway, I enjoyed the M-82, so hopefully its big brother will turn out to be fun too.

 

Based on purely anecdotal evidence and personal experience, it feels like, the higher up you go in BR, the more of a plane's performance relies on modifications, i.e. stock syndrome seems way worse in the higher tiers.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

i love both the I-185s. they both might as well be called the la-11/e.

[Tigerspook 315]

I flew the plane, maybe for the first time since I made the original post, last night.  It was a lark; I normally would have used the La-7 or Yak-9P instead of the I-185.

 

It was a multi-airfield domination match. I hovered over an airfield and did a good job of defending it.  I took 4 or 5 high-value planes (cannon spits, American F-4, highest scorer on the red team, etc) before I got greedy and thus got ganked.

 

I might have to re-evaluate my opinion.

[Mantis_Religiosa 727]

On 21/02/2017 at 14:05, Tigerspook said:

I have seen a few posts lately that claim the I-185 (M-71) is OP or at least "best of breed" at it's BR. I am curious why this is.

 

It has 3x 20mm cannons.  But many deadly planes (Cannon-Stangs, Tempests, Hurricanes, etc) have 4x 20mm and have a lower BR.

 

The I-185 is slow in level flight, maybe only faster than a Sea Hurricane. It has an insane roll rate, but it's turn radius isn't as good as planes it commonly meets such as Spitfires and similarly BR-ed P-63s.

 

The I-185, in steep dives, out-flies it's control surfaces and plows.

 

Finally, it's fragile. One burst and it's ruined if not burning.

 

I finally - finally - spaded this thing last night. I have never seen such a one-and-out fighter as this.

 

I've been flying BR 4.7 Russians for a while now and I don't see many people flying these. Why not? It isn't like there are a lot of other choices at this BR. When I do see one, I kill them. They are as easy to kill as P-400s. Compare to, say, J2Ms and Bf 109-G models, both of which are freaking UFOs. I avoid the former, but the Imp of the Perverse in me makes me want to test the G-2s.

 

I am just about ready to pull this thing out of my 4.7 lineup (while leaving three 4.0 BR planes in!)

 

Why would this be a mistake? What magical amazing attribute of the I-185 do I not see?

maybe since this plane has probably changed a lot in 3 years I'm going to say I'm late to the party.
This thing is literally a 190D13 without flaps at 4.7 (now 4.3) and the stronk point of this plane is its speed and absurd energy retention. But it's fast only above 6000m, it's a mid-high alt fighter and to be honest it is far better than the tempest mk2 because you can literally pull 13G turns at 800kmh and if you don't turn it will keep 800kmh in straight lines for more time than the tempest would do. 3 shvaks on tracer belts (nose mounted) are easier to aim than 4 hitsparknos in the wings where stealth or ground target belts are the most effective (In my exp verry hard to aim even more when the tracers have different velocity than the rest of shells, or worse, when there's no tracers and the AP rounds go faster than the HE rounds)