ground vehicles T17 Armored Car

[CaID 8,996]

 

This Suggestion is in support of the Armored Cars research line project

 

I would like to introduce you the American in the British line.The T17

The T17 and the T17E1 were two American armored car designs produced during the Second World War. Neither saw service with frontline US forces but the latter was supplied, via the United Kingdom, to British and Commonwealth forces during the war and received the service name Staghound. A number of countries used the Staghound after the war, with some of the vehicles continuing to serve into the 1980s.

In July 1941, the US Army Ordnance issued specifications for a medium armored car alongside a specification for heavy armored car. Ford Motor Company built a six wheels, all driven (6 x 6) prototype which was designated T17 and Chevrolet a four wheels, all driven (4 x 4) model designated T17E1. At the same time, the British Purchasing Commission was also looking for medium and heavy armored cars for use in the war in North Africa. Had the U.S. adopted this, it would have been called the M6.

Both the T17 and T17E used the same turret which was designed by Rock Island Arsenal with British requirements driving some of the design features such as putting at least two crew in the turret and placing the radio in the turret so that it was close to the commander.

The T17 was armed with a 37 mm gun in a rotating turret, a coaxial machine gun and a bow machine gun. Power was from two Hercules JXD engines. In the interests of standardization, these replaced Ford's initial 90 hp engines.

the vehicles was built in over 4.000 unites.

 

there is 8 variation of the T17 i would like to Suggest

 

The T17 Deerhound (6x6)

Spoiler

This variant was been removed to be added to a different suggestion for the USA

 

The T17E1 Staghound Mk I

Spoiler

 

The T17E1 was armed with a 37 mm M6 gun, a coaxial .30 cal Browning 1919A4 machine gun and a 2-inch smoke mortar in a rotating turret. In the hull was mounted a .30 cal Browning 1919A4 machine gun.[10] Some T17E1 had an additional .30 Browning 1919A4 cal machine gun for anti-aircraft defense.
The turret had power traverse and featured a turret basket (which limited the amount of internal crew storage). The 37 mm gun was gyroscopically stabilized.
This variant had a crew of 5, commander, loader, gunner, driver, and hull machine gunner.

 

 

The T17E1 Staghound Mk II

Spoiler

 

This was a field conversion that had a 3 inch howitzer Mk 1 for close support mounted in place of the 37 mm gun in the turret. The bow machine gun was removed. It is not known how many were converted. These were issued to the Armoured Car HQ section.

 

 

T17E1 Staghound Mk III (2 different gun)

Spoiler

 

Had a turret taken from an Ordnance QF 6 pounder (57mm) gun armed Crusader tank and 7.92 mm Besa machine gun. Some of these were then re-fitted with the Ordnance QF 75 mm gun. There was no bow machine gun. These had reached the front line by 1945, where it was supplied to heavy troops of armored car regiments. The total number ordered was around 100–300. After WWII, this version saw usage with Denmark and combat in Lebanon.

 

 

The T17E3

Spoiler

 

T17E1 fitted with the turret of 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8, carrying the 75mm M2/M3 howitzer. This was trialled in December 1943, but never reached production.

 

T17E1 Tullip 4

Spoiler

As if the T17 was not enough wonderful, the british army menage to make it even more marvelous by adding four RP-3 on the side of the turret.

 

On 19th November 1944, four Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) Rocket Launcher Rails Mk1 were attached to the turret of an HQ Company Staghound, two on each side. They were loaded with 60 lb RP-3 (Rocket Projectile 3-inch) The rocket launcher rails were attached to the 37 mm gun’s mantlet. This enabled them to be moved up and down. Rotating the turret moved the rockets left or right. During tests, it was found that accuracy, especially in the terms of range, was poor. Some rockets failed to explode when fired at targets close to the vehicle. The maximum range achieved was 3,000 yards (2750 meters). The Staghound Tulip served with the XII Manitoba Dragoons in France, 1944. The rockets were not especially accurate at long range, and at short range the fuze often failed to detonate the warhead. First Canadian Army recommended further study, but cancelled a February 1945. 

 

The T17E1 Tullip 8

Spoiler

 

if you felled exited by the sight of the four RP-3 on the T17E1. you will be to heaven with the double of the rocket on a rotational pod.

after the test of the first RP-3 Canadian Military Headquarters sponsored an effort in Britain by No 1 Canadian Base Workshop to adapt the 3-inch (76mm) and 5-inch (125mm) rockets – types already allocated to First Canadian Army for the Land Mattress artillery rockets. This placed four rockets in box launchers on either side of the turret. The main problem with this arrangement was that the backblast from the rockets was so severe that it damaged the rear mudguards.

 

 

Specifications (Staghound Mark I)
Weight	14 t
Length	17 ft 10 in (5.49 m)
Width	8 ft 10 in (2.69 m)
Height	7 ft 9 in (2.36 m)
Crew	5
Armor	9 to 44 mm
Main armament	37 mm M6
Secondary armament	2 or 3 x .30 (7.62 mm) machine guns
Engine	2 x GMC 270 2 x 97 hp (72 kW)
Power/weight	13.9 hp/tonne
Suspension	wheels, 4 x 4
Operational range	450 miles (724 km)
Speed	55 mph (89 km/h)

 

Source

http://panzerserra.blogspot.ca/2015/04/t17e1-staghound-mk-i-and-mk-iii-part-01.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T17_(armored_car)

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=923

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/gb/Sherman-Tulip.php

 

Other British Armored cars included in the Armored Cars research line project

Guy Mk.I

Guy Mk.Ia

Humber AC MK.I

Humber AC MK.II

Humber AC MK.IV

Daimler AC Mk.I

Daimler AC Mk.II (added to Up-date 1.71)

Daimler AC Mk.I CS

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.I

Coventry Armored car Mk.I

Coventry Armored car Mk.II

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.II

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.III (57)

T17E1 Stanghound Mk.III (75)

T17E3

T17E1 Tulip 4

T17E1 Tulip 8

AEC AC Mk.I

AEC AC Mk.II

AEC AC Mk.III

FV601C Saladin

FV601a

FV721 Fox

Fox 25

Fox 76

Saladin 90

Furret Mk.II/VI

Furret Mk.V

Saladin Swinfire

Fox Milan

 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by CaID

[blakeob 8,086]

Open for discussion. 

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

I love the Staghounds. I hope to see them in a recon vehicle line soon. I don't know why anyone would want the rocket equipped ones as US premiums though, they were Canadian conversions, both of which the British tested, and the US took no interest in either of them.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[Battered_Walrus 995]

yes i very much support these vehicles to be added in the British tree (obviously the first T17 in the US tree)

[CaID 8,996]

55 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I love the Staghounds. I hope to see them in a recon vehicle line soon. I don't know why anyone would want the rocket equipped ones as US premiums though, they were Canadian conversions, both of which the British tested, and the US took no interest in either of them.

the canadian are all US prenium so far. it would be normal to keep them together. i also think they should all be British prenium. so i put the choice

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

7 minutes ago, CaID said:

the canadian are all US prenium so far. it would be normal to keep them together. i also think they should all be British prenium. so i put the choice

Isn't there only two Canadian premiums at the moment, one of which is supposed to be an American version of a Canadian vehicle instead of the actual Canadian vehicle?

[CaID 8,996]

i think the canadian skink is also going to be USA prenium. i saw something about that SPAA in the developer hand.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by CaID

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

5 minutes ago, CaID said:

i think the canadian skink is also going to be USA prenium. i saw something about that SPAA in the developer hand.

 

It was passed to development as a US tank, though anyone reading that thread would know that very few people wanted it to have anything to do with the US outside of the thread creator.

[_EQUAI_ 356]

Put all these in the British tree!!!!!

I can never get enough of the staghound.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

jesus christ. clearly the T17 was the kit car of anglophone nations. these should have their places in one or both nations rosters

 

my input:

 

 

deerhound 6x6: US only, researchable.

 

staghound 1: US and UK. researchable for both nations (unless one side never really maintained a stock or used it).

 

staghound 2: UK only, researchable or premium. side note- did the americans ever use this particular model?

 

staghound 3 QF 6: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the 75mm equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

staghound 3 75mm: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the QF 6 equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

T17E3: US only, premium. it's an M8 scott on wheels.

 

 

both of the tulips are kind of a tossup as they were both purely canadian effort, and since the UK already has a premium vehicle with RP-3 racks welded to the turret. so i'd have to say...

 

Tulip 4: US premium. it served with the canadians in france and since WT precedent has canadian vehicles with the US, and british involvement is minimal here. also this would give the US a tier 1/early tier 2 MRLS-hybrid.

 

Tulip 8: definitely british. definitely premium. canadian sponsored, made in the UK, and intended to 1-up the RP-3 version.

 

 

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

45 minutes ago, admiral_aruon said:

T17E3: US only, premium. it's an M8 scott on wheels.

It was designed to a British specification specifically for the British. I don't see why it would be in the US tree only.

45 minutes ago, admiral_aruon said:

both of the tulips are kind of a tossup as they were both purely canadian effort, and since the UK already has a premium vehicle with RP-3 racks welded to the turret. so i'd have to say...

 

Tulip 4: US premium. it served with the canadians in france and since WT precedent has canadian vehicles with the US, and british involvement is minimal here. also this would give the US a tier 1/early tier 2 MRLS-hybrid.

I would much rather not continue that nonsensical precedent. Also, British involvement in that was minimal? The whole reason why it was dropped was due to the British telling them that it was unsuitable for air rockets to be used in the ground role. That advice was why the Canadians switched to Land Mattress rockets on their second attempt.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

41 minutes ago, admiral_aruon said:

jesus christ. clearly the T17 was the kit car of anglophone nations. these should have their places in one or both nations rosters

 

my input:

 

 

deerhound 6x6: US only, researchable.

 

staghound 1: US and UK. researchable for both nations (unless one side never really maintained a stock or used it).

 

staghound 2: UK only, researchable or premium. side note- did the americans ever use this particular model?

 

staghound 3 QF 6: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the 75mm equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

staghound 3 75mm: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the QF 6 equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

T17E3: US only, premium. it's an M8 scott on wheels.

 

 

both of the tulips are kind of a tossup as they were both purely canadian effort, and since the UK already has a premium vehicle with RP-3 racks welded to the turret. so i'd have to say...

 

Tulip 4: US premium. it served with the canadians in france and since WT precedent has canadian vehicles with the US, and british involvement is minimal here. also this would give the US a tier 1/early tier 2 MRLS-hybrid.

 

Tulip 8: definitely british. definitely premium. canadian sponsored, made in the UK, and intended to 1-up the RP-3 version.

 

 

Also, you do realize that US never used a single variant of the T17 operationally right? They built them entirely just for the Lend Lease program.

[CVB_Zuikaku 469]

Canadian and all Commonwealth vehicles belong alongside the British. Say if there would ever be the Canadian Diesel M10, it's be in the UK Tree, Rams, all there too, AC MK I/II/III/IV etc.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

36 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

It was designed to a British specification specifically for the British. I don't see why it would be in the US tree only.

 

I would much rather not continue that nonsensical precedent. Also, British involvement in that was minimal? The whole reason why it was dropped was due to the British telling them that it was unsuitable for air rockets to be used in the ground role. That advice was why the Canadians switched to Land Mattress rockets on their second attempt.

 

now that i didn't know. wish i could've found something on it.

 

and that pretty much sums up british involvement- pointing out the obvious. it would certainly make it ironic if a concept the british dismissed was forced to be part of their lineup.

 

and why does canada seemingly HAVE to be locked to the commonwealth? they WERE their own nation after all. being a part of the commonwealth is an association, not a binding pact.

[CVB_Zuikaku 469]

2 minutes ago, admiral_aruon said:

 

and why does canada seemingly HAVE to be locked to the commonwealth? they WERE their own nation after all. being a part of the commonwealth is an association, not a binding pact.

Mainly due to the fact the Canada was and is pretty much loyal to the Crown, and it would work much better in matches where the US and UK vehicles are fighting each other in this case aswell.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

21 minutes ago, admiral_aruon said:

 

now that i didn't know. wish i could've found something on it.

 

and that pretty much sums up british involvement- pointing out the obvious. it would certainly make it ironic if a concept the british dismissed was forced to be part of their lineup.

 

and why does canada seemingly HAVE to be locked to the commonwealth? they WERE their own nation after all. being a part of the commonwealth is an association, not a binding pact.

The British did try it out for themselves as well

I don't see why all of them can't be in the British tree.

 

As for why Canada should be with the rest of the Commonwealth, as with most Commonwealth countries during WWII, they actively maintained very close political and military ties with each other, often to the point where their military units would be directly attached to each others and they would follow the same military doctrine. That's why I want the British tree to fully become the British Commonwealth tree.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[Sabrean 65]

I'm not so sure that Staghound Mark IIIs with 6-Pounders were ever actually completed as such - I suspect that replacing the 6-Pounder from the Crusader turret with the 75mm was a standard part of the conversion process to make the Mark IIIs. Now admittedly I've not ever really spent a great deal of time looking up Staghounds, and so I'm willing to be corrected by something more concrete like a photograph I've missed, but every photographed Staghound Mark III I've ever seen has the 75mm as indicated by the muzzle brake, with the exception of a survivor in Canada that has a fake gun barrel. The only 6-Pounder Staghounds I've seen at all are always model kits rather than photographs of real vehicles, such as the one in one of your sources, and modellers aren't exactly a good source.

 

I've found the War Wheels Website is normally a good resource on Armoured Cars, and its articles generally appear to be very well sourced, using official period reports - you can't really get any better than that, not when it comes to text based sources anyway. This article on 1945 Armoured Car production, which it says is based on information from the Royal Armoured Corps half-yearly report for mid-1945, has a detailed description of the Staghound III, and seems to suggest that the Staghound III always had the 75mm, saying:

Quote

These cars were intended to be used in the support role but only appeared right at the end of the fighting in Germany. The bow machine gun was deleted and the turret replaced with a Crusader III tank turret with modified hatches and its original 6pdr gun replaced with the British 75mm which was itself developed from the 6pdr bored out to fire American 75mm series ammunition.

 

Based on this, and the lack of photographs of 6-Pounder Staghounds, I think it's fair to say that most if not all Staghound IIIs had 75mms, instead of 75mms simply being "some" of them. So I'm not really in favour of a 6-Pounder Staghound III being added. The others you listed are mostly fine though, they all certainly existed at least.

 

I should note though that whilst most photos of Staghound IIIs do show that the bow machine gun was removed, there's a couple that still have it - these appear to be photos of the prototype, and of Lebanon's Staghounds which apparently were unique conversions. So it's fair to say the version with the bow MG deleted is the official British in-service version, and the one that should be added.

[CaID 8,996]

6 hours ago, admiral_aruon said:

 

now that i didn't know. wish i could've found something on it.

 

and that pretty much sums up british involvement- pointing out the obvious. it would certainly make it ironic if a concept the british dismissed was forced to be part of their lineup.

 

and why does canada seemingly HAVE to be locked to the commonwealth? they WERE their own nation after all. being a part of the commonwealth is an association, not a binding pact.

Canada was actually under the command of the British army in ww2. even now, Canada trade officer from units to unite with the united kingdom. i was trained in CFB Kingston in 2010 in the cfsce (signal school), the officer in charge of the school was an britz Major. the 2nd company of the 2nd Regiment of the Royal 22 Regiment (French Canadian infantry), is a British. Canada is his own country, but it's a constitutional monarchy which mean it's still part of the British Empire and the tie with United kingdom is still very strong.

Edited April 18, 2017 by CaID

[CaID 8,996]

5 hours ago, Sabrean said:

I'm not so sure that Staghound Mark IIIs with 6-Pounders were ever actually completed as such - I suspect that replacing the 6-Pounder from the Crusader turret with the 75mm was a standard part of the conversion process to make the Mark IIIs. Now admittedly I've not ever really spent a great deal of time looking up Staghounds, and so I'm willing to be corrected by something more concrete like a photograph I've missed, but every photographed Staghound Mark III I've ever seen has the 75mm as indicated by the muzzle brake, with the exception of a survivor in Canada that has a fake gun barrel. The only 6-Pounder Staghounds I've seen at all are always model kits rather than photographs of real vehicles, such as the one in one of your sources, and modellers aren't exactly a good source.

 

I've found the War Wheels Website is normally a good resource on Armoured Cars, and its articles generally appear to be very well sourced, using official period reports - you can't really get any better than that, not when it comes to text based sources anyway. This article on 1945 Armoured Car production, which it says is based on information from the Royal Armoured Corps half-yearly report for mid-1945, has a detailed description of the Staghound III, and seems to suggest that the Staghound III always had the 75mm, saying:

 

Based on this, and the lack of photographs of 6-Pounder Staghounds, I think it's fair to say that most if not all Staghound IIIs had 75mms, instead of 75mms simply being "some" of them. So I'm not really in favour of a 6-Pounder Staghound III being added. The others you listed are mostly fine though, they all certainly existed at least.

 

I should note though that whilst most photos of Staghound IIIs do show that the bow machine gun was removed, there's a couple that still have it - these appear to be photos of the prototype, and of Lebanon's Staghounds which apparently were unique conversions. So it's fair to say the version with the bow MG deleted is the official British in-service version, and the one that should be added.

 

It's hard to tell appart the QF 6pndr and the 75mm. they both have the same feature. the only difference is the 75mm was larger. the OQF 75mm was meant to fit where the OQF 6 pounder would fit. the 75mm was installed to be better with the infantry, a bigger gun, bigger HE, slower velocity. the OQF 6 pounder was the standard for the T17E1 Mk3. because they both have the same muzzle. it's very hard to tell which one is the 57mm

7 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

Also, you do realize that US never used a single variant of the T17 operationally right? They built them entirely just for the Lend Lease program.

they give the 6x6 to some police deparment for home security. but the US army, air force, navy or marine never use it at all.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

12 minutes ago, CaID said:

 

It's hard to tell appart the QF 6pndr and the 75mm. they both have the same feature. the only difference is the 75mm was larger. the OQF 75mm was meant to fit where the OQF 6 pounder would fit. the 75mm was installed to be better with the infantry, a bigger gun, bigger HE, slower velocity. the OQF 6 pounder was the standard for the T17E1 Mk3. because they both have the same muzzle. it's very hard to tell which one is the 57mm

they give the 6x6 to some police deparment for home security. but the US army, air force, navy or marine never use it at all.

I guess I should have specified US military, but that is what I meant. Only the military police used any variant, and that was just because they had a surplus of a few hundred of the original Deerhound that nobody wanted anything to with. Their version had the turret removed and would be useless in game.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[CaID 8,996]

8 hours ago, admiral_aruon said:

deerhound 6x6: US only, researchable.

 

staghound 1: US and UK. researchable for both nations (unless one side never really maintained a stock or used it).

 

staghound 2: UK only, researchable or premium. side note- did the americans ever use this particular model?

 

staghound 3 QF 6: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the 75mm equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

staghound 3 75mm: UK only, premium/researchable, whichever one the QF 6 equipped staghound 3 isn't.

 

T17E3: US only, premium. it's an M8 scott on wheels.

 

 

both of the tulips are kind of a tossup as they were both purely canadian effort, and since the UK already has a premium vehicle with RP-3 racks welded to the turret. so i'd have to say...

 

Tulip 4: US premium. it served with the canadians in france and since WT precedent has canadian vehicles with the US, and british involvement is minimal here. also this would give the US a tier 1/early tier 2 MRLS-hybrid.

 

Tulip 8: definitely british. definitely premium. canadian sponsored, made in the UK, and intended to 1-up the RP-3 version.

 

 

the deerhound had never been use for any US military and given to some police.
the Staghound mk1 was not use at all in the US and was devolopped for selling them to the British. it should not be in US line at all, they have less right of having them than the British have right to have the T14 and they dont.

The T17E3 was not meant to be sold to US military but for the British. but i guess they didn't show any interest so it was never mass produced.

the tulip 4 was un Staghound bought by the english and gived to the canadian to armed their forces. US implication was minimal.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

2 minutes ago, CaID said:

The T17E3 was not meant to be sold to US military but for the British. but i guess they didn't show any interest so it was never mass produced.

The British were initially interested in the T17E3, as they released the initial specifications for it. This started to peter out as several delays were encountered until all interest was gone. Only a single pilot had been built by that time.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[CaID 8,996]

6 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

The British were initially interested in the T17E3, as they released the initial specifications for it. This started to peter out as several delays were encountered until all interest was gone. Only a single pilot had been built by that time.

so as i say. it was not for the USA but to the british. Thanks to bring some clarification Mercedes4321.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

2 minutes ago, CaID said:

so as i say. it was not for the USA but to the british. Thanks to bring some clarification Mercedes4321.

You're welcome.

[Sirchby 3,711]

23 hours ago, Walrus_batter said:

yes i very much support these vehicles to be added in the British tree (obviously the first T17 in the US tree)

 

T17E3 was still in U.S. since its final specification is still based from U.S. standard specification.

 

Same goes to M6 which the British also wrote its own specification for M6, but rejected in the end. U.S. only used their own standard.

Well, guess what? British doesn't have M6 in its tech tree. Instead, it has Excelsior using M6 suspension.

 

Especially given the M8 turret is unique to U.S. inventory.