Possible additions to the Italian Tech Tree

[TLTeo 889]

On 2017-5-22 at 0:10 AM, L_Serra_Pilota said:

I was always against the G.59 for many reasons .

1) you cant put an airplane of 1948+ in tier III ... It really destroy any taste of realism that one want to give

2) Its a mix of italian and allied technology , its weird to see him fly between 205s maybe over Tunis ! Not thanks

3) There is really no photo or document that confirm that 20mm guns were installed .There is one photo with mock guns

4) There is no blood , or war reasearch behind it .It was made only for commercial purposes .

5) I prefer to insert a prototype that "could have been" than something that was just a trainer from the beginning (in Italy).

 

The G.59 was a bad trainer , over complicated to train for jets . It was succesfull only to make Fiat live ( and that was good and lead to G.80 prototypes and G.91 production) and for weekends fun of ex WW2 pilots .

 

 

I don't like the idea of having the G59 in game either, but I decided to add pretty much everything that could make sense, even if I don't like it. Realistically the list would be fine without a lot of those twin engine prototypes and a bunch of older bombers like the Piaggio P.32 and P.16, but imo it's good to be impartial and let Gaijin decide.

Edited May 27, 2017 by TLTeo

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

14 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

 

I don't like the idea of having the G59 in game either, but I decided to add pretty much everything that could make sense, even if I don't like it. Realistically the list would be finewithout a lot of those twin engine prototypes and a bunch of older bombers like the Piaggio P.32 and P.16, but imo it's good to be impartial and let Gaijin decide.

 

Point taken.  I was wondering if you'd be fine with helping to provide some sources when I get around to suggesting a couple of planes on the list after the patch goes live?

 

Currently, what I'm looking at first are Angelo Tondi's P-38G (which could be an "ace" premium in addition to captured for a bit of uniqueness), the D.520C.1, the BR.20C (a BR.20 with a 37 mm cannon in the nose), and the CR.42AS (CAS variant of the CR.42 with the option to carry either bombs or two additional MGs in gun pods).

Edited May 21, 2017 by Z3r0_

[blockhaj 3,560]

3 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

I might also add that the P-38L could potentially take a spot at rank 4 on the attacker/heavy fighter branch, as Italy imported a hundred ex-USAAF Lightnings after the war ended (apparently they were VERY impressed by the test flights, and a few combat missions, performed by Angelo Tondi in a P-38G that they captured during the war).

No more horrible copies for the italians. If there shall be a p38 then make it a premium.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

2 hours ago, blockhaj said:

No more horrible copies for the italians. If there shall be a p38 then make it a premium.

 

That's an option too.  The only reason I'd consider having it on the regular tree is because of how many the Italians had in service (a full hundred of them, no less).

[TLTeo 889]

8 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

 

Point taken.  I was wondering if you'd be fine with helping to provide some sources when I get around to suggesting a couple of planes on the list after the patch goes live?

 

Currently, what I'm looking at first are Angelo Tondi's P-38G (which could be an "ace" premium in addition to captured for a bit of uniqueness), the D.520C.1, the BR.20C (a BR.20 with a 37 mm cannon in the nose), and the CR.42AS (CAS variant of the CR.42 with the option to carry either bombs or two additional MGs in gun pods).

 

I really wouldn't know where to look for sources myself, but if you need anything translated, sure!

I only suggested planes rather than versions, but so what I guess I will do is add a separate section for different versions of planes already in the game, although that won't be nearly as complete as the list of planes because there would be too much stuff to keep track of.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

33 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

 

I really wouldn't know where to look for sources myself, but if you need anything translated, sure!

I only suggested planes rather than versions, but so what I guess I will do is add a separate section for different versions of planes already in the game, although that won't be nearly as complete as the list of planes because there would be too much stuff to keep track of.

 

Understood, although some variants of existing aircraft could be interesting nonetheless (for example, the BR.20C).  I appreciate any assistance you can provide.

[Mardek 232]

How about the p.133?

 

The final development of the P.108, the P.133 prototype, was almost complete by the time of the Armistice (8 September 1943), but the program was dropped soon afterwards and the aircraft was never finished. It was designed to have a lighter structure and several improvements in performance, which were partially influenced by a captured B-24, with a potential speed of 490 km/h (304 mph), 6 × 20 mm and 4 × 12.7 mm (.5 in) guns and a bomb load of up to 4,800 kg (10,600 lb).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108#P.133

Edited May 26, 2017 by Mardek

[PrincessPudding 217]

19 hours ago, Mardek said:

How about the p.133?

 

The final development of the P.108, the P.133 prototype, was almost complete by the time of the Armistice (8 September 1943), but the program was dropped soon afterwards and the aircraft was never finished. It was designed to have a lighter structure and several improvements in performance, which were partially influenced by a captured B-24, with a potential speed of 490 km/h (304 mph), 6 × 20 mm and 4 × 12.7 mm (.5 in) guns and a bomb load of up to 4,800 kg (10,600 lb).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108#P.133

 here is the topic of the p.133

[TLTeo 889]

As I said earlier, I decided to draw the line at prototypes that were built and flew, and only made an exception for the Re.2006 because it was pretty close to completion and also because I'm a hypocrite. Personally I feel like the P.133 is too much of a paper plane, so I won't include it unless a ton people ask for it.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

2 hours ago, TLTeo said:

As I said earlier, I decided to draw the line at prototypes that were built and flew, and only made an exception for the Re.2006 because it was pretty close to completion and also because I'm a hypocrite. Personally I feel like the P.133 is too much of a paper plane, so I won't include it unless a ton people ask for it.

 

By any chance do you have any sources I can use for suggesting the CR.42 AS?  Most of what I can find online on the variant specifically consists of footnotes barely a sentence in length, which is a shame because I think having a CR.42 with the option of doubling its firepower or carrying bombs for combined arms could be pretty useful.

[TLTeo 889]

I do not; I think a lot of the CAS variants of the CR.42/G.50/C.200 were either quick retrofits or field modifications once better planes entered service, so I don't know how much official documentation there is. That said I have seen images of CR.42s with underwing hardpoints, I guess I could look for those?

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

2 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

I do not; I think a lot of the CAS variants of the CR.42/G.50/C.200 were either quick retrofits or field modifications once better planes entered service, so I don't know how much official documentation there is. That said I have seen images of CR.42s with underwing hardpoints, I guess I could look for those?

 

Perhaps.  The only issue I'm having is finding Gaijin's two mandated sources, particularly since most of what I've found doesn't even bother mentioning the hardpoints, only the sand filter.

[TLTeo 889]

"AS" stands for "Africa Settentrionale" (Northern Africa) in italian, and it does refer to planes with sand filters retrofitted. Most G.50s and Cr.42s produced were actually AS variants, because the sand filters didn't affect performance at all unlike those used for, say, Hurricanes and Spitfires. 

 

The italian wiki page only mentions bombs instead of gunpods for the AS version, but since both the CR.32 and G.50 could mount two .30 cals in the wings I don't see why the CR.42 couldn't.

Edited May 26, 2017 by TLTeo

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Re 2005

SM 91

SM 92

 

All of them are a must

[blockhaj 3,560]

Well aparently there is an Re.2006R which is basically the 2006 but in a yak15 config with 2 or 4 cannons.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

5 hours ago, TLTeo said:

"AS" stands for "Africa Settentrionale" (Northern Africa) in italian, and it does refer to planes with sand filters retrofitted. Most G.50s and Cr.42s produced were actually AS variants, because the sand filters didn't affect performance at all unlike those used for, say, Hurricanes and Spitfires. 

 

The italian wiki page only mentions bombs instead of gunpods for the AS version, but since both the CR.32 and G.50 could mount two .30 cals in the wings I don't see why the CR.42 couldn't.

 

Allegedly the CR.42 AS could mount 12.7 mm gunpods - that's the main appeal of that variant to me.

 

Then again, iirc the CR.42 bis could be fitted with those too.

[NEW_dasando 578]

please put all "planned" planes out....if we will get anything what was planned we will get Luftwaffe 46/47 also with "reichsflugscheibe" (UFO)

[TLTeo 889]

Other prototypes already exist in War Thunder in every nation so no, as long as a plane flew it belongs on this list.

Edited May 28, 2017 by TLTeo

[LilSaucer 50]

The Fiat G.59 would be an amazing addition to late tier IV.

Personally I would like to see more Caproni aircraft in general, specifically the Ca.335 and Vizzola F.6.

[cfracas 1,708]

Re2000 and Re2001CN have been officially confirmed with usual "Soon" (probably in 1.71 unless a special event will be set up from now to then).

From Re2001CN it seems logical to introduce in game the standard Re2001.

Re2001 with 4mg and Re2001CN with 2mg and 2cannons are a no-brain choice and they will allow to build an arcade lineup of BR 2.0 and BR 2.7 respectively.... I don't know which BR Gaijin is thinking to give to Re2000 as it have same armament of G50 and C200.... maybe they will give it the option to take bombs as planes of 377 squadron bombed Malta.

Re2002 Ariete is a fighter bomber that for sure (if introduced in game, no announcement so far) will fall in BR2.0 due to same armament of C202 and Re2001.

I think D520 (AB BR 2.7) is needed as well because between C202 and C205serie1 there is a huge gap (AB BR 2.0 to 3.7) and Regia Aeronautica have very few options in this area... please keep in mind that historically Bf109F/G and D520 have been introduced for a similar reason (and due to difficulty to fill gap due to combat losses).

D520 is ready, the model already exist in game... if introduced in Italian regular tree will give finally the possibility to everyone to play with it with no need to wait for French tech tree (my personal forecast is June 2018).

[blockhaj 3,560]

22 minutes ago, cfracas said:

Re2000 and Re2001CN have been officially confirmed with usual "Soon" (probably in 1.71 unless a special event will be set up from now to then).

From Re2001CN it seems logical to introduce in game the standard Re2001.

Re2001 with 4mg and Re2001CN with 2mg and 2cannons are a no-brain choice and they will allow to build an arcade lineup of BR 2.0 and BR 2.7 respectively.... I don't know which BR Gaijin is thinking to give to Re2000 as it have same armament of G50 and C200.... maybe they will give it the option to take bombs as planes of 377 squadron bombed Malta.

Re2002 Ariete is a fighter bomber that for sure (if introduced in game, no announcement so far) will fall in BR2.0 due to same armament of C202 and Re2001.

I think D520 (AB BR 2.7) is needed as well because between C202 and C205serie1 there is a huge gap (AB BR 2.0 to 3.7) and Regia Aeronautica have very few options in this area... please keep in mind that historically Bf109F/G and D520 have been introduced for a similar reason (and due to difficulty to fill gap due to combat losses).

D520 is ready, the model already exist in game... if introduced in Italian regular tree will give finally the possibility to everyone to play with it with no need to wait for French tech tree (my personal forecast is June 2018).

First off, AB is not a good example to use when filling br holes. But also there are a bunch of planes that could fill the 3.0 hole for italy in AB without adding yet more copies of foreign planes.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

May be MC.205S, which has 20mm and additional fuel tank instead of 12,7 mgs

Edited May 30, 2017 by _Condottiero_

[cfracas 1,708]

1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

May be MC.205S, which has 20mm and additional fuel tank instead of 12,7 mgs

I admit I was not aware of this version and it seems interesting.

I can read from wikipedia that it was a bunch of 18 planes (205 serie 3) modified in 1944 by co-belligerent air force.

Some historical consideration should be done as well... MC205S was co-belligerent, while D520 was Regia Aeronautica, so I can imagine D520 more historical to fight side by side with Germans while defending Italy against allies.

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by cfracas

[Ruthless95 1,177]

On 2017-05-21 at 9:06 PM, blockhaj said:

No more horrible copies for the italians. If there shall be a p38 then make it a premium.

totally agree specially about p-38s. but so far the f-84 and 109 aren't horrible copies but just nice copies.

12 hours ago, cfracas said:

I admit I was not aware of this version and it seems interesting.

I can read from wikipedia that it was a bunch of 18 planes (205 serie 3) modified in 1944 by co-belligerent air force.

Some historical consideration should be done as well... MC205S was co-belligerent, while D520 was Regia Aeronautica, so I can imagine D520 more historical to fight side by side with Germans while defending Italy against allies.

 

i literally can't find any other source other than wikipedia which confirms the existence of MC.205S so until more solid evidence come take everything about it with a grain of salt.

[Ruthless95 1,177]

i'm just wondering why you are not putting in variants, like MC.202D. MC.205N1, CR.42 and G.50 variants and these are just variants of already in game machines. things like Re.2001 re.2005 and many more than aren't in game can come with multiple variants and you haven't mentioned. does it get too detailed and dirty? because that's the only reason i can come up with.