p.108a P.108A what is the correct cannon?

[FWD13 508]

The P.108A currently uses the 102/35 mod 14 or Cannon 102/35 Model 1914 which is incorrect since the P.108A use a modified version of the Cannone da 90/53. As stated below the Cannone da 90/53 was re-bored to be 102mm which means the gun weighs less and performed better. This would explain why the P.108A seems to be rather sluggish. 

 

" It was armed with a modified high velocity Cannone da 90/53 gun mounted in a redesigned nose. This was considered the most effective artillery piece in service, and in several versions was used as an anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun by the Army and the Navy. To be more effective in its new role, the size of the gun was increased from 90 mm (3.5 in) to 102 mm (4 in), a non-standard Italian artillery calibre, and fired shells weighing 13 kg (29 lb) as opposed to the standard gun's 10 kg (22 lb), with a muzzle velocity of over 600 m/s (1,970 ft/s).The gun together with its recoil system weighed 1,500 kg (3,300 lb). Due to it being a re-bored smaller gun, its weight was relatively low for its calibre."(Bignozz)  

 

Sources

Bignozzi, Giorgio. "The Italian 'Fortress' (part 1)." Air International Vol. 31 No. 6, December 1986. pp. 298–305, (part 2)." Air International, Vol. 32 No. 1, January 1987. pp. 29–31, pp. 47–49.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=815

Edited July 21, 2017 by Pony51
Moved to Italy > Bombers for more discussion, title change from "P.108A incorrect gun"

[Pony51 6,572]

Thank you very much for this.

 

We require 2 sources, please look/ask around for corroborative source.

[FWD13 508]

18 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Thank you very much for this.

 

We require 2 sources, please look/ask around for corroborative source.

There is 2 sources there.

[FWD13 508]

21 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Thank you very much for this.

 

We require 2 sources, please look/ask around for corroborative source.

Here is another one anyway

 Sgarlato, Nico. "P.108, la Fortezza della Regia". (in Italian) Great Planes monographes, N.27, March 2007. Parma, Italy: West-ward edizioni.

[FWD13 508]

Just remember I forgot to quote one

 

"From the outset, the P.108 was planned in four distinct versions requiring a flexible airframe. The P.108A "Artiglieri" would become a dedicated anti-shipping platform to protect Italian interests across the Mediterranean Sea - this model armed with an Ansaldo 1941 Model 90/53mm cannon and torpedoes for the job."(militaryfactory)

[Pony51 6,572]

Oh, my bad.  I assumed link for the book you listed.  

 

Thank for data, 

 

[FWD13 508]

5 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Oh, my bad.  I assumed link for the book you listed.  

 

Thank for data, 

 

Your welcome.

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Hi,

   For our referencing standards, can you please follow the guidelines.

 

Direct quotes of any material is not acceptable.   Gaijin requires that the actual document be scanned and all relevant page(s) with the information included.  The Developers like to see the 'context' with which any given information is used.

Quote

Historical Issues Referencing Information

 

The required number of References depends on the type of sources presented:
OEM Manuals    -  User Manuals / Repair Manuals / Factory Manuals etc (Flight/Pilot/Maintenance Manuals, Engineering Drawings etc) - Historically acknowledged reference sources - single source is required. (Preferred)
Authored works   -  Reference Books on collections of vehicles/aircraft/ships ('coffee table books') Biographies, Specialist Books, "Expert" opinion publications, websites, industry magazines etc - at least two unrelated sources required.*

*Please be reminded that Wikipedia or other private Websites are generally not considered as reliable sources.

 

• Please ensure the references have:  Report/Document Type, Report/Document Name, Author, Date, ISBN/ISSN, relevant Pg No's etc - so our Historical consultant can review and check the accuracy of those documents against the substantial Gaijin Historical Database and Reference Sources.
• Please provide scans of all pages referenced and a scan of the front cover of publication/book.  
• For Web sources. Please provide the link to the actual relevant section or document.  If this is not possible and only higher links can be referenced then please provide page or title information to locate the relevant reference.
• Photographs need to be fully referenced.

 

Can you please provide the information in the format required above for this title.

Quote

Bignozzi, Giorgio. "The Italian 'Fortress' (part 1)." Air International Vol. 31 No. 6, December 1986. pp. 298–305, (part 2)."     Air International, Vol. 32 No. 1, January 1987. pp. 29–31, pp. 47–49.

 

Thanks,

[FWD13 508]

38 minutes ago, KnightoftheAbyss said:

Hi,

   For our referencing standards, can you please follow the guidelines.

 

Direct quotes of any material is not acceptable.   Gaijin requires that the actual document be scanned and all relevant page(s) with the information included.  The Developers like to see the 'context' with which any given information is used.

 

Can you please provide the information in the format required above for this title.

 

Thanks,

 

I don't own either one of those so taking pictures of the articles is not possible how ever I did mange to the magazines the articles came from there covers are below . Just to be clear I know the information if there 100%, this is not something I think is there. 

 

Bignozzi, Giorgio. "The Italian 'Fortress' (part 1)." Air International Vol. 31 No. 6, December 1986. pp. 298–305,

(part 2)." Air International, Vol. 32 No. 1, January 1987. pp. 29–31, pp. 47–49.

Spoiler

 

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Ok, thanks.

 

So where did you read the information you cited below?

Quote

" It was armed with a modified high velocity Cannone da 90/53 gun mounted in a redesigned nose. This was considered the most effective artillery piece in service, and in several versions was used as an anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun by the Army and the Navy. To be more effective in its new role, the size of the gun was increased from 90 mm (3.5 in) to 102 mm (4 in), a non-standard Italian artillery calibre, and fired shells weighing 13 kg (29 lb) as opposed to the standard gun's 10 kg (22 lb), with a muzzle velocity of over 600 m/s (1,970 ft/s).The gun together with its recoil system weighed 1,500 kg (3,300 lb). Due to it being a re-bored smaller gun, its weight was relatively low for its calibre."(Bignozz)  

Where did the covers come from?  This information must have a source.

 

I am afraid Gaijin does not accept personal recollection of transcripts.   It requires an actual document to support whatever the player is claiming.

This is standard Commercial, Educational, Industrial referencing usage.

 

As your second reference is a private website it is not considered as 'reliable' source. 

 

This is why it is important to have all the information possible on the Air International magazines. 

 

I will ask our Historians if they can assist.

 

Cheers

[MrMG42 1,296]

Source: Ali D’Italia №15 - Piaggio P.108, by Giancarlo Garello, La Bancarella Aeronautica

 

[FWD13 508]

2 hours ago, KnightoftheAbyss said:

So where did you read the information you cited below?

Whoever contributed it to the wiki cited from those magazines, I didn't quote wiki quote the citationed marital which i know is reliable because I can prove other citationed marital wiki is true. The wiki for the BV238  gives theses specs for the plane and cites them from 2 sources I have one of the books and can prove its right(if you need pictures of this I'll add them). If its not citationed marital I don't use it.

Quote

Where did the covers come from? 

The links below is where I got the covers if I need to I'll buy them to prove what I quoted is correct.  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Air-International-V31-N6-Italian-F-104-Grumman-EF-111A-Raven-Piaggio-P-108B/401052160645?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AIR-INTERNATIONAL-JANUARY-1987-VOLUME-32-NO-1-EPSILON-FRANCES-BASIC-CHOICE/380467580877?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

[FWD13 508]

Also as for the private website I'm going to try contact them to see if I can get there source for the P.108A.

[FWD13 508]

The only book I have that references the P.108A just says it was armed with a 102mm cannon which would support my claim that the Cannon 102/35 Model 1914 might be the wrong gun. I haven't seem any yet that said it was armed with the Cannon 102/35 Model 1914.

Spoiler

 

[FWD13 508]

Also this website here refers to the same source as the other one which reinforces the same information.

 

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Piaggio P.108&item_type=topic

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks very much.

[FWD13 508]

24 minutes ago, KnightoftheAbyss said:

Thanks very much.

So just to be clear what @MrMG42 added reinforces my claim right? Because to me that's what it looks like.

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

No.  It actually now brings into the mix a third possibility.

 

We now have:

102/35 mod 14 or Cannon 102/35 Model 1914

Cannone da 90/53 (which was rebored to 102mm, but the gun designation is not mentioned)

An Piaggio and Ansaldo fitted(cannon)102/40 (This and the above 'could be' the same. They could also be different. We don't have evidence either way).

 

These are three clearly not agreeing (or clearly defined) references. 

 

I have sent a message to the Historians and am awaiting a response.

[FWD13 508]

14 hours ago, KnightoftheAbyss said:

No.  It actually now brings into the mix a third possibility.

 

We now have:

102/35 mod 14 or Cannon 102/35 Model 1914

Cannone da 90/53 (which was rebored to 102mm, but the gun designation is not mentioned)

An Piaggio and Ansaldo fitted(cannon)102/40 (This and the above 'could be' the same. They could also be different. We don't have evidence either way).

 

These are three clearly not agreeing (or clearly defined) references. 

 

I have sent a message to the Historians and am awaiting a response.

So now were down to 2 guns.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by fwD13

[MrMG42 1,296]

Source: Italian aircraft of World War II, by Nico Sgarlato, Squadron/Signal Publications, 1979

[FWD13 508]

The information I provided may have been wrong on the gun but the weight, shell weight, and velocity supports what @MrMG42 source claims. 

[FWD13 508]

This is the Italian 102/45 my guess is they shortened the caliber to 40 so it could fit in the plane.

 

 

[Pony51 6,572]

Excellent input guys!

Major detective work.

[Pony51 6,572]

I looked over all the sources again, and another.

 

I cannot find enough for a definitive answer, and make a valid report.

 

Best is to keep looking, so I move this to Italy bombers for anyone to post.

[FWD13 508]

43 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

I looked over all the sources again, and another.

 

I cannot find enough for a definitive answer, and make a valid report.

 

Best is to keep looking, so I move this to Italy bombers for anyone to post.

What are we missing, we have a source confirming it's not a rebored 90 and 2 sources that say it uses a 102/40. I could only find a 102/35 and 102/45 that was made by Italy and it makes no sense to lengthen a caliber of a gun when you can shorten it. So a shortened 102/45 makes sense. Or the 102/40 is a typo and the 0 should be a 5.