The biggest problem

[CloCloZ 375]

5 hours ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

Also Anecdotal...Also pointless to respond to a troll any further...Got better things to do...Roll on...

 

 

 

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

On 10.8.2017 at 7:47 PM, _Shisa said:

Only for those that have the time to play RB, SB modes.  A lot want the quick action and not waiting around.  I mean, many have real life things to do too.  At least the older players.

 

I disagree of all flight Sims WT SB is the one you can make a quick game. It''s not DCS where you start and it the next time you know it 5 hours have passed with you only having 3-5 Air to Air engagements in the entire time. SB is quite quick in WT... this might simply be a misconception.

 

On 10.8.2017 at 8:38 PM, Hohum33 said:

If people wanted to learn about air combat, there is a decent choice of sources available to learn from. (youtube, books, other players).

My assumption is, a lot of people don't want to learn, they want to mash their fire button and thrash the controls around until they die, and then do it again.

 

Well AB lacks critical aspects of air combat.. stuff like visibility has completely different rules in AB/RB than in actual air combat. but the general idea is right watch videos and watch people play AB is a good way to learn. But i don't think watching videos about actual ww2 fighter tactics will help in AB.

 

 

On 11.8.2017 at 11:54 AM, esapekkis said:

 

I agree that the game phase is so different between the modes that people who prefer arcade due the fast action might not like RB/SB. But I have hard time agreeing the "lack of time" reason I hear every now and then. I know players who play only 1 game of RB or fly a single short sortie in SB EC since they don't have time to play more than 20-30min in one session.

 

 

The thing I can come up with is getting to target alive with bombers. Since being detected is harder and shooting down aggressors is easier with mouse aim you still use when manning the turrets. If you had something other in your mind I'm really eager to hear it.

 

On 10.8.2017 at 8:45 PM, GregKjr said:

 

calling RB/SIM more difficult is sum what subjective. different yes but to say more difficult I'm not totally sold on that. I think a case can be made that SIM is even less difficult than AB but that's not what the thread is about.

 

I got a different approach to this. This is a very "yes and no" thing.

Simply put every PvP game is as hard as your personal skill is compared to your opponents. even very "simple" games can be hard if your opponent is really good at it. The difficulty in WT comes from the players you are playing against. You can have SB games where you absolutely annihilate pretty much everyone and then play AB and get curbstomped... it depends on who you are playing against (in AB and SB). of course if you are more skilled in SB then the median player but less skilled in AB than the median AB-player you will have a harder time in AB than in SB (average player would be also right as human skills are normally distributed but the term would be misleading).

 

But there is another side to this coin: Complexity.

At least when it comes to fighters SB is simply more complex than AB. the easiest example for it being the controls.

Mouse aim has no absolute neutral position (well technically it has but it the neutral position moves with the mouse), the movement stops when your hands stops moving. mouse joy and joystick you need to consciously put the stick to neutral or release it. While your body parts and the way your brain moves them it only sends signals when the hand moves. So your hand also takes the neutral position with it and only needs signal when it's moving while the stick is completely different. That's why mouse usage is way more intuitive as the brain needs to translate less information.

So from a psychomotoric view mouse aim is simply easier to use.

 

But complexity is more the work required to get started in the mode it doesn't realll affect the difficulty to beat your opponent as your opponent has to deal with the same complexity. The huge advantage of this intuitive controls can be seen when someone with mouse aim fights someone on a stick. Or when you play a shooter with one player using mouse and keyboard and the other uses a gamepad.

Gamepad users will always have trouble competing with mouse and keyboard as sticks simply aren't as inuitive for the human brain to use.

 

You can also see this discrepancy when you see the effectiveness of mouse aim gunners in SB.

 

But complexity doesn't affect difficulty as in every mode the players play on the same rules.

 

[CloCloZ 375]

5 hours ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

@PennyWort

People don't pm you for advice because you'd give the wrong advice. 

 

They would pm you on the premise that you've just spawncamped them and killed them repeatedly. Every spawn camper in the game gives the following solution to dealing with spawn campers:

 

'Dive away, side climb and return to deal with spawn campers'.

 

Wrong advice.

 

This is exactly what spawn campers want; more easy kills, less players attacking objectives, a greater chance for an all too rare win.

 

...

...

 

 

 

The usual anti-spawn-camping advice you reported is just one of the many wrong advice given on this forum but is even more disturbing if you suspect it's maliciously given.

 

The best tactic with spawn campers is: ignore them.

 

The present mechanism gives them a too marked advantage, moreover chasing spawn campers send you far away from the battle core and with the need of a long climb, so you'd miss more chances to kill or to bomb and battle activity percentage could suffer too.

If you aren't immediately killed by a spawn camper, dive immediately, head toward the battle, which in AB is at medium-low altitude, and stay fighting there.
If they still want to kill you, they'll have to follow you and face the dreaded "furball". If they dare.

 

Of course, doing that (i.e. ignoring them) will give them less kills but also will expose them to fewer risks of being killed, so they should be happy enough for their precious KDR ...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by CloCloZ

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

The most important thing to remember about spawn campers, They are not at all interested in a fair fight. And that is the problem and the answer to the problem. Do what you can to either stay away from them or get them to come lower so they can be engaged by yourself or a teammate at an altitude that is less beneficial to spawn camping. You can bait some of them to get them to come lower, but it does put you at risk. The top spawn camping squads generally don't fall for it or will have a teammate watching their 6 from above that will swoop in for the kill. (I call this a "double" bait maneuver.) There are tactics to counter it, but if you are on your own without support from any teammates willing to go to altitude far away from your spawn and come back to engage the camper squads, you are screwed.

 

 

 

[GregKjr 520]

14 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

What data?

 

About the quota of spawn campers players that are paying players? Just Gaijin has that data and for sure don't make them known. But it doesn't need a genius to understand that the typical spawn camper belongs to the typical paying payer class and even of the "hard" type (experienced, often Level 100 or around, addicted, often fighting in a squadron etc.) and even the observation of spawn camping apologists in this Forum fully confirm that.

Not even it needs a particularly good observation skills to notice that in battle.

 

About Gaijin favouring paying players? The whole game and business logic too say that is true, spawn campers would be just one case amongst many.

 

About the fact that Gaijin is protecting spawn campers not changing the spawn mechanism? This is a fact so, yes, here I have even "data".

 

The reason I ask for any data is ... As a accused level 100 spawn camper who has been on a free account from day 1.  Your claim dose not match my experiences. so asking for any kind of proof seams reasonable to me

 

 

4 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

I disagree of all flight Sims WT SB is the one you can make a quick game. It''s not DCS where you start and it the next time you know it 5 hours have passed with you only having 3-5 Air to Air engagements in the entire time. SB is quite quick in WT... this might simply be a misconception.

 

 

Well AB lacks critical aspects of air combat.. stuff like visibility has completely different rules in AB/RB than in actual air combat. but the general idea is right watch videos and watch people play AB is a good way to learn. But i don't think watching videos about actual ww2 fighter tactics will help in AB.

 

 

 

 

I got a different approach to this. This is a very "yes and no" thing.

Simply put every PvP game is as hard as your personal skill is compared to your opponents. even very "simple" games can be hard if your opponent is really good at it. The difficulty in WT comes from the players you are playing against. You can have SB games where you absolutely annihilate pretty much everyone and then play AB and get curbstomped... it depends on who you are playing against (in AB and SB). of course if you are more skilled in SB then the median player but less skilled in AB than the median AB-player you will have a harder time in AB than in SB (average player would be also right as human skills are normally distributed but the term would be misleading).

 

But there is another side to this coin: Complexity.

At least when it comes to fighters SB is simply more complex than AB. the easiest example for it being the controls.

Mouse aim has no absolute neutral position (well technically it has but it the neutral position moves with the mouse), the movement stops when your hands stops moving. mouse joy and joystick you need to consciously put the stick to neutral or release it. While your body parts and the way your brain moves them it only sends signals when the hand moves. So your hand also takes the neutral position with it and only needs signal when it's moving while the stick is completely different. That's why mouse usage is way more intuitive as the brain needs to translate less information.

So from a psychomotoric view mouse aim is simply easier to use.

 

But complexity is more the work required to get started in the mode it doesn't realll affect the difficulty to beat your opponent as your opponent has to deal with the same complexity. The huge advantage of this intuitive controls can be seen when someone with mouse aim fights someone on a stick. Or when you play a shooter with one player using mouse and keyboard and the other uses a gamepad.

Gamepad users will always have trouble competing with mouse and keyboard as sticks simply aren't as inuitive for the human brain to use.

 

You can also see this discrepancy when you see the effectiveness of mouse aim gunners in SB.

 

But complexity doesn't affect difficulty as in every mode the players play on the same rules.

 

yes that was kind of my point as well. There are a large number of factors that come into play.  Those factors effect the game modes in a way that make it difficult to just boil it down to

Ab/Rb/Sim = Easy/Medium/Hard.  its a bit more complicated than that.  so we should avoid the disservice to the players of their respective game modes by making that kind of inference.

Edited August 15, 2017 by GregKjr

[Venatores 309]

How has supporting the game by sometimes buying eagles have anything to do with this conversation? You can do just as well with normally gained planes. Besides gaijin gives out so many occasions to gain free eagles and vehicles. Just a few examples: squadron battles, chronicles, events, their anniversarie, tournament for teams and solo players, golden wagers. You dont need to spend 1 dollar to be good at this game or for that matter gain premium vehicles. 

 

So please no one bring up such an invalid statement and enjoy the game that is supported by players that actually make it possible for you to be able to enjoy this lovely free game. 

[Pat_McGherkin 2,074]

^^ 

 

For once we agree

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

yes that was kind of my point as well. There are a large number of factors that come into play.  Those factors effect the game modes in a way that make it difficult to just boil it down to

Ab/Rb/Sim = Easy/Medium/Hard.  its a bit more complicated than that.  so we should avoid the disservice to the players of their respective game modes by making that kind of inference.

 

I actually do this sort of inference... but mostly for fun. Whenever some RB player mocks AB for being easy... then you can use their own logic by mocking them as a SB player. 

 

Taste of their own medicine. Also: Banter is fun if all parties involved don't take it serious (for example mocking them for using the term "pilot" while using mouse aim, but that's in good fun as SB players in their selfmade homecockpits calling themselves pilots is just as autistic... maybe even more so).

 

 

 

But it's these differences wich annoyed me back when Thunderleague was still a thing... as it neglected all the modes and made RB "the" WT mode... same with world war mode.

I like Squadron battles for example... even played them in arcade a year ago... when i play them now in RB... but i'm primarily a Sim player but Squadron battles for SIM don't exist :/ so i have to play RB SQB, and while i like SQBs i don't like them enough to exercise my RB skills and get proficient enough to really be good at it.

It's like you never become a good racing driver if you have no interest in cars or driving.

 

 

Back to the topic at hand:

 

14 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

No, it's just logic coupled with observation.

 

A lot of people asks for "data", perfectly knowing that just Gaijin has those data and keep them confidential, just to not acknowledge what reason suggests. Usually because they don't like what reason suggests.

So they starts talking about "conspiracy theories" etc.

Deja vu.

 

 

 

That's just really weird and warped logic.

 

for that to be the case you need to provide evidence that Gaijin is willingly keeping them confidential or just never gave a damn or even more logical they don't want their competitors to have a transparent look at how war thunder generates income...

I don't think there is money in allowing spawncamping. For obvious reasons. Happy customers are paying customers. Yes in the F2P business model about 1% of players generate 50% of the income... but if Gaijin follows that logic wouldn't the SIM crowd get more love... they are more likely to pay money for WT because they already payed a lot... Stick, pedals and throttle: minimum 200$ TrackIR 200$ a lot of them build home cockpits... so they already paid a lot. 20 bucks for in game content isn't really a concern for those people who already paid about 500$ just to play.

 

Flight gear alone i'm, at about 100$ WT ingame expenses should be a similar amount...and i don't even play WT that regularly. 

SB having a higher percentage of paying players is simply logical... well i might be wrong... but it's unlikely... Gaijin don't cater a lot to the SB crowd do they? So why spawncampers? especially as these guy easily grind through the techtrees without paying as it seems.

[CloCloZ 375]

1 hour ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

That's just really weird and warped logic.

 

It's one of the most straight logic you could have, provided that you want try to follow it.

 

Quote

 

for that to be the case you need to provide evidence that Gaijin is willingly keeping them confidential or just never gave a damn or even more logical they don't want their competitors to have a transparent look at how war thunder generates income...

 

Evidence? What evidence?

Of course Gaijin DO keep reserved those data, that's the evidence! Or do you see any marker in player's card saying "paying player"?
Of course not.

The reason is that they have no need to show them, nor convenience to do it in relations to competitors (as you wrote) and players themselves (just imagine player's base reactions if they had the impression, or even the "proof", reading those data, that WT really is a P2W game!).
I'm not saying Gaijin is making a bad choice, it's just what I would do too and is similar to what they do for a lot of other aspects of the game (how many other issues in WT are discussed just by guesses made by players, because real official data are lacking or missing?).
But they do it, point.

 

So why I'm asked to "give proof"  of anything and even when the proof is evident and undeniable I'm again asked to "prove" that?

 

 

Quote

I don't think there is money in allowing spawncamping. For obvious reasons. Happy customers are paying customers. Yes in the F2P business model about 1% of players generate 50% of the income... but if Gaijin follows that logic wouldn't the SIM crowd get more love... they are more likely to pay money for WT because they already payed a lot... Stick, pedals and throttle: minimum 200$ TrackIR 200$ a lot of them build home cockpits... so they already paid a lot. 20 bucks for in game content isn't really a concern for those people who already paid about 500$ just to play.

 

I see no "obvious reasons" in your reasoning.
First of all, yourself deny that admitting that 1% of players generate half of the income, so there is a lot of happy enough players that go on gaming although not paying anything or paying very little. That's why Gaijin understandably has to focus onto that 10% (just a guess) that pays.
And any behaviour which is widespread enough in the paying players class (because gives them advantages, happy customers are the winning customers!) has to be quite logically safeguarded, for business reasons.

 

No twisted logic here, just logic.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by CloCloZ

[Hohum33 680]

15 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

 

A psychologist would have here a good subject of study.

 

IRONIC

11 hours ago, Pat_McGherkin said:

You happily make players' game time a miserable experience to the point of being proud of it and expect to be seen as a pillar of this community. 

 

That's the real ignorance in this thread.

 

 

No, the real ignorance is blaming players for what the game encourages them to do.

[Hohum33 680]

2 hours ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

The most important thing to remember about spawn campers, They are not at all interested in a fair fight.

 

In combat, only an idiot is interested in a fair fight.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

 

Evidence? What evidence?

Of course Gaijin DO keep reserved those data, that's the evidence! Or do you see any marker in player's card saying "paying player"?
Of course not.

 

Wait.. how is that evidence? if Gaijin wasn't pay to win this evidence would be the same... 

 

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

The reason is that they have no need to show them, nor convenience to do it in relations to competitors (as you wrote) and players themselves (just imagine player's base reactions if they had the impression, or even the "proof", reading those data, that WT really is a P2W game!).
I'm not saying Gaijin is making a bad choice, it's just what I would do too and is similar to what they do for a lot of other aspects of the game (how many other issues in WT are discussed just by guesses made by players, because real official data are lacking or missing?).
But they do it, point.

 

So? but they don't state stuff as facts... also there is datamining... 

 

People making arguments while having no data to support that the problem they want removed even exists, are delusional.

 

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

 

So why I'm asked to "give proof"  of anything and even when the proof is evident and undeniable I'm again asked to "prove" that?

 

i asked for evidence... proof doesn't exist outside of mathematics... i know i'm being peantic, but there is a difference.

 

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

 

 

 

I see no "obvious reasons" in your reasoning.
First of all, yourself deny that admitting that 1% of players generate half of the income, so there is a lot of happy enough players that go on gaming although not paying anything or paying very little. That's why Gaijin understandably has to focus onto that 10% (just a guess) that pays.

 

well yes and no... again the highest percentage of paying players is in SB... still SB is neglected (after 4 years we still have bomber ABuse, half**ed bomber Cockpits, Tanks still being an arcade shooter). If you were right that wouldn't be the case.

 

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

And any behaviour which is widespread enough in the paying players class (because gives them advantages, happy customers are the winning customers!) has to be quite logically safeguarded, for business reasons.

 

1. See above if that was the case SB would be different.

 

2. are you saying that paying customers are more likely to spawncamp? Or that spawncampers are more likely to pay for the game?

Because if you aren't your argument falls apart.

 

48 minutes ago, CloCloZ said:

 

No twisted logic here, just logic.

 

 

don't kid yourself: it's pretty twisted.

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

1 hour ago, CloCloZ said:

 

It's one of the most straight logic you could have, provided that you want try to follow it.

 

 

Evidence? What evidence?

Of course Gaijin DO keep reserved those data, that's the evidence! Or do you see any marker in player's card saying "paying player"?
Of course not.

The reason is that they have no need to show them, nor convenience to do it in relations to competitors (as you wrote) and players themselves (just imagine player's base reactions if they had the impression, or even the "proof", reading those data, that WT really is a P2W game!).
I'm not saying Gaijin is making a bad choice, it's just what I would do too and is similar to what they do for a lot of other aspects of the game (how many other issues in WT are discussed just by guesses made by players, because real official data are lacking or missing?).
But they do it, point.

 

So why I'm asked to "give proof"  of anything and even when the proof is evident and undeniable I'm again asked to "prove" that?

 

 

 

I see no "obvious reasons" in your reasoning.
First of all, yourself deny that admitting that 1% of players generate half of the income, so there is a lot of happy enough players that go on gaming although not paying anything or paying very little. That's why Gaijin understandably has to focus onto that 10% (just a guess) that pays.
And any behaviour which is widespread enough in the paying players class (because gives them advantages, happy customers are the winning customers!) has to be quite logically safeguarded, for business reasons.

 

No twisted logic here, just logic.

as anyone who has actually run a retail business would understand!

 

[Brave_Idiot 1,292]

I wonder what the odds are any thread will turn into a spawn camping debate...but since we are here.

 

57 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

No, the real ignorance is blaming players for what the game encourages them to do.

Are you claiming the game encourages spawn camping? If so, I do not agree. Spawn camping will increase the players loss rate and the rewards for spawn camping are low. I would say in ABAF War Thunder does not encourage spawn camping.

 

Ground pounding is a different story...

 

54 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

In combat, only an idiot is interested in a fair fight.

Yep, exactly. The whole point is to try to gain an advantage over your enemy.

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

57 minutes ago, Hohum33 said:

 

In combat, only an idiot is interested in a fair fight.

well I guess so......but as historically inaccurate as the game is.....it isn't actually anything like war. It's a game. And if people perceive that they are being cheated, correctly or incorrectly, they will eventually make the decision to stop playing. Things are different when you are in an actual war, and you can really get killed. And bombers are bombing your wife and kids. Unfortunately in a game, egos are just as important and vulnerable to some players. Thus the justification of certain people to take advantage of the game and  protect and feed their egos. Lots of people will argue about this I am sure.

[Wundsalz 574]

8 minutes ago, Brave_Idiot said:

Are you claiming the game encourages spawn camping? If so, I do not agree. Spawn camping will increase the players loss rate and the rewards for spawn camping are low. I would say in ABAF War Thunder does not encourage spawn camping.

The game economy yields decent rewards for spawncamping. I also doubt spawncampers care about their win/loss rate, as they don't play to win but maximize their KDR instead or simply enjoy the playstyle.

[P8triot 3,894]

2 minutes ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

 Unfortunately in a game, egos are just as important and vulnerable to some players. 

I think this is the biggest problem I see.  If a match goes catastrophically for some players they shout to the roof tops to change the game.  The truth is,  we learn more from a failure than from a success so even when I get owned I usually notice or learn something.  I realize that sometimes no matter how well I play or how well my team plays, My team and me can still get owned...its the nature of all the variables that goes into a match:  vehicles brought, map, match type, and player experience,etc.  

 

Too many times I see my fellow players advocating for basically a caged hunt.  They want to stomp with little to no chance that they themselves can be stomped...a solution that is blatantly unfair to 50% of the players.   

[FailBoatCaptain 439]

9 hours ago, Venatores said:

Even when i (pro100 member) am 5km away from the spawn they message me with all kinds of swear words. Mostly including cheater and spawn camper. So it does not really matter how far you are from their spawn. They will always resort to these names eventhough you are just using an altitude advantage. 

Players dont know how to look around. Nor do they know when they pull up they will loose speed. Basics of air combat?

Most are too stuck on killing tanks that they forget that there are also red enemy fighters around. Then they get upset that some enemy fighters actually know how to shoot down a plane? Perhaps be less focused on the silly objective and embrace the beauty of air combat vs an actual player instead of an ai steared tank that anyone can kill. 

Are you a [100] tag? that squad's reputation preceeds you. It's not like it's not well earned.

[Hohum33 680]

57 minutes ago, Brave_Idiot said:

Are you claiming the game encourages spawn camping? .

 

By having a configuration where spawns are so easily camped. yes.

 

I'm not saying the developers made it that way to encourage it. More likely an oversight, and a lack of interest in addressing it.

[Hohum33 680]

48 minutes ago, Wundsalz said:

The game economy yields decent rewards for spawncamping. I also doubt spawncampers care about their win/loss rate, as they don't play to win but maximize their KDR instead or simply enjoy the playstyle.

 

It's entirely possible to have a high KDR without spawn camping. Keeping to good BnZ tactics will do just fine - in fact doing that over the spawn area (alone, anyway) is usually a bad idea for longevity.

 

BnZing versus people who have blown all their altitude / energy, or have bad situational awareness, is taking advantage of their bad choices. In contrast to this, with one spawn location, players have no real choice but to appear directly into an ambush. This, I think, is the crux of what I dislike about it.

[Wundsalz 574]

1 minute ago, Hohum33 said:

It's entirely possible to have a high KDR without spawn camping. Keeping to good BnZ tactics will do just fine - in fact doing that over the spawn area (alone, anyway) is usually a bad idea for longevity.

I've never claimed spawn-camping was the only way to a good KDR. I don't see how it harms ones KDR though. Sure you can practically furball in the enemy fighter spawn, call it spawncamping and die quickly, but if you spawn camp in a group baiting one plane after another into a stall for your team mates to pick up an easy kill it's the safest flight style in Air Arcade battles.

[VaperTrail 343]

3 hours ago, Hohum33 said:

 

By having a configuration where spawns are so easily camped. yes.

 

I'm not saying the developers made it that way to encourage it. More likely an oversight, and a lack of interest in addressing it.

 

Like blaming the chocolate for the person reaching for it because he was so compelled to reach out and scoff it, players have choices if experienced players choose to take advantage of newbie players the instant they enter the game, that's on them not because the chocolate tastes good or that the game allows it, they make the choice because it gives them easy kills no other reason, if they were really tough kills to get at the Spawn we wouldn't be having this thread.

 

The only people I ever see cheering for Spawn Camping are Spawn Campers, it don't bother me but it bothers the newbie victims and I don't blame them for getting frustrated.

 

The honorable premise behind all sport is fair play, a level playing field, 100 level experience that is Spawn Camping and smashing newbies is not sporting,  its a bad game mechanic that allows a big advantage to the experienced player at the most vulnerable time for a newbie entering the game.

[CloCloZ 375]

5 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Wait.. how is that evidence? if Gaijin wasn't pay to win this evidence would be the same... 

 

What else you need to consider an evidence that water is wet other than seeing that water is wet?

Those data ARE reserved, point.

Well, it's quite incredible ...

 

 

Quote

 

 

So? but they don't state stuff as facts... also there is datamining... 

 

People making arguments while having no data to support that the problem they want removed even exists, are delusional.

 

This is the usual but insincere argument: since there are unknown data and they will be forever unknown, one can't use his brain and his observation skills.

Which is, by the way, the negation of any deductive method.

 

So, since there is no published data available, you think you are right ... even if your opinion is based on "no data" just like mine (but, worse, yours doesn't seem to be observation-based too)!

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

i asked for evidence... proof doesn't exist outside of mathematics... i know i'm being peantic, but there is a difference.

 

So, neither me nor you could say anything about 90% of this game.

This Forum could be conveniently closed.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

well yes and no... again the highest percentage of paying players is in SB... still SB is neglected (after 4 years we still have bomber ABuse, half**ed bomber Cockpits, Tanks still being an arcade shooter). If you were right that wouldn't be the case.

 

Very bad attempt to shift the subject.

We are talking about AB, which has by far the largest share of players in terms of absolute value (since I have no exact "data" here, so "no mathematics", do you want to deny that this statement is true?), the relative percentage regarding a tiny number of SB players has no room in a business related argument.

It's just a matter of common sense, nothing more needed to say.

 

 

Quote

 

 

2. are you saying that paying customers are more likely to spawncamp? Or that spawncampers are more likely to pay for the game?

Because if you aren't your argument falls apart.

 

 

 

Frankly speaking, it seems you are really unable to make observations and understanding what an observation is: I said that in my opinion and according with all I saw, a large part of spawn campers really seems to be paying players and this would be just a good enough reason for Gaijin to protect that behaviour.
If it's paying that pushes to become spawn camper or being spawn campers pushes to pay, it's an entirely different issue and doesn't change in any way the above reasoning.

Likely not even Gaijin can be sure why it happens, for them only relevant thing is to know if it happens or not.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by CloCloZ

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

What else you need to consider an evidence that water is wet other than seeing that water is wet?

Those data ARE reserved, point.

Well, it's quite incredible ...

 

Again aif gaijin wasn't manipulating the would still reserve the data... so the reserved data itself means nothing.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

This is the usual but insincere argument: since there are unknown data and they will be forever unknown, one can't use his brain and his observation skills.

Which is, by the way, the negation of any deductive method.

 

You can use your brain. But there is a reason people ask for evidence. The human brain is pretty good at creating false positives as it tends to see patterns where none exist. That's why people started to rely on evidence instead of their own brain.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

So, since there is no published data available, you think you are right ... even if your opinion is based on "no data" just like mine (but, worse, yours doesn't seem to be observation-based too)!

 

Actually i do not have an opinion on the matter. I simply reject your claim on the lack of evidence. Rejecting a claim is't the same as making the opposite claim.

 

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

So, neither me nor you could say anything about 90% of this game.

This Forum could be conveniently closed.

 

What? That makes no sense whatsoever. Of course a forum makes sense. People can diacuss tactics they think that work. They can speculate. Or argue about the behaviour of other players.

 

Then there is the suggestion settings where player do provide evidence that a plane needs to be changed.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

Very bad attempt to shift the subject.

We are talking about AB, which has by far the largest share of players in terms of absolute value (since I have no exact "data" here, so "no mathematics", do you want to deny that this statement is true?), the relative percentage regarding a tiny number of SB players has no room in a business related argument.

It's just a matter of common sense, nothing more needed to say.

 

Your misconception about the size of sb is funny but irrelevant. This was an example not more not less.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

 

Frankly speaking, it seems you are really unable to make observations and understanding what an observation is: I said that in my opinion and according with all I saw, a large part of spawn campers really seems to be paying players and this would be just a good enough reason for Gaijin to protect that behaviour.

 

Even if ypu are correct and spawncampers tend to be paying players... wich you provided 0 evidence for. You only shown that gaijin has a reason to manipulate... but not that they do. I have reasons to do all sort of things doesn't mean i do them.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

 

 

If it's paying that pushes to become spawn camper or being spawn campers pushes to pay, it's an entirely different issue and doesn't change in any way the above reasoning.

 

No it doesn't it does show however that there is no causal link between the two... at least that you can't find one.

 

8 hours ago, CloCloZ said:

Likely not even Gaijin can be sure why it happens, for them only relevant thing is to know if it happens or not.

 

 

Seriously you sound like a conspiracy nut 

[bearchills 427]

As a brand new player (who is already frustrated with a good many things about this game), it is extremely disappointing and discouraging to be hearing So Many of you veterans defending a sleazy practice like spawncamping. What's really rather upsetting though, is that practically Every one of the apologists in here is talking about it like it's the typical way they play, and you're even brash enough to brag about it as if it's something to be proud of.

I don't doubt that you are all very good at this game. I'm sure you all have a very high level of proficiency executing all the maneuvers and tactics that are practically impossible for beginners to comprehend while just starting out. 
Myself, I've been having a very rough go at it. I have the cards entirely stacked against me, because, unlike the majority, I'm playing because I want to Fly the planes. Playing a flying game with a mouse and keyboard is just ridiculous to me personally. One day, when I've finally saved up the money, I plan to get a hotas/rudder/oculus rift setup, but right now my only option is an xbox controller. And it's tough to hold my own.
I am disgusted by the Insane advantage mouse players have. It Really is like we are playing two Entirely different games, where one plane suffers from physics and damage, and the other plane's flight characteristics remain uninhibited. Not to mention the Outstanding situational awareness mouse players have while simultaneously being able to execute perfect maneuvers. It is nearly impossible for me to keep my eye on a target AND concentrate on appropriate maneuvering AND the rest of the players. It's not that I have a problem with mouse players; I have a problem with the fact that the way the game is designed, it gives mouse players a very real and very unfair advantage over people who want to actually be flying the plane rather than directing it. 
I also understand that all I can do is grit my teeth and deal with my massive disadvantage. Because from what I read, there will never be separate lobbies because there just aren't anywhere near enough players. That knowledge also kinda stings, because you know there are tons of newbies who get scared away or frustrated with the many imperfections of this game, and then to top it off they have to deal with highly skilled players who unabashedly sit on spawn points to get easy kills.
If I didn't have other plans, I'd quit too. However, this game has seemingly the best graphics in its genre and Lots of planes, and I want to experience it with a VR setup. That is The Only reason I am committed to sticking with it, despite this game having unfriendly dynamics towards newcomers.

 

It's really bazaar to me that, in 2017, anyone has to explain that spawncamping is bad sportsmanship. I understand that many members here are very old men, but could it Really be possible that all of you are so out of touch with the gaming world that you Honestly don't Know that spawnkilling is universally and unanimously seen as bad gaming etiquette?? If that applies to any of you, then this is your wake-up call.
However, I highly doubt any of the spawncampers Really Don't understand that it is a sleazy tactic. And to you I say, just own it for what it is. No one is stopping you from doing it (certainly not gaijin), but stop pretending that it is a perfectly acceptable way to play.

You guys sound upset that people get vulgar towards you when you employ cheap scummy playstyles. What do you expect?? It is literally Crazy to expect someone to ask you for advice and counsel after you have incessantly beat them down with your unsportsmanlike playstyle. If you play like that, don't expect reverence and admiration from your victim. 

You're all just gonna have to face it; spawncamping is a dirty tactic that isn't impressive and only drives people to become so frustrated that they rage-quit.

The fact that many of you are proud of exploiting such a cheap way to get kills is just ridiculous.

Just imagine how stupid Annie Oakley would have looked if she was showing off for an audience, but instead of performing her amazing trick shooting, she decided to shoot fish in a barrel. She would be booed and have an angry audience demanding their money back.

It's even funnier when you consider KDR equivalent in that scenario...  "Yeah, they weren't hard shots, but look at my 'hit/miss ratio'! I got every fish and didn't miss one!" Hahahaha!

I have been spawncamped a number of times, and sometimes I can get away by diving off. But more often than not, diving doesn't work, they stay on me because they're better, and my only option becomes flying erratically in an effort to confuse them or at least keep their sights off me. Sometimes I shake em, mostly I don't. Because of This thread, now I am very worried that I will be encountering it more as I move up BRs.

 
All that being said, I obviously have a very low opinion of spawnkillers, but it's not my biggest peeve about the game. 

IMHO, the Real biggest problem with this game is the sickening advantage mouse players have, and moreso, the fact that I have to compete with such a disadvantage because there cannot be separate lobbies.
Also, I think this game has absolutely horrible matchmaking. I understand how it works, and I think it's stupid. 

Also, (this is a bit more specific, but a big one for me since this plane is unquestionably a major factor in why I decided to play this game) the DM on the P-38s is Absurd! With all the R&D that I'm sure goes into this game, I cannot understand how they could get this plane so Horrendously Wrong. They seem to have gotten it confused with Zeros, which were actually notorious for being turned into fireballs with a glancing shot. Instead, I find myself exploding immediately if Anyone even looks in my direction.

It is infuriating. 
And it is definitely one reason why I can't get into RB/SB yet. I won't have any fun if the game consists of flying for a really long time, not seeing anyone, and then getting killed as soon as I come anywhere near possible combat.


Incidentally, someone mentioned that there actually IS a lobby for new players. I have seen no such thing, but if anyone could point me in that direction I would be grateful.