ground vehicles AMX-13 DCA - French Tier 5/6 SPAAG

[Alphanoodle 526]

Baguette tanks have been confirmed in 1.75 so we can finally retreat both in the air and on land! https://warthunder.com/en/news/5150-shop-french-ground-vehicles-in-1-75-la-résistance-en

 

Jokes aside, today i'd like to suggest the French AMX-13 DCA, an SPAAG armed with twin 30mm cannons that could provide French ground forces in high tier combat with great CAS protection. It was adopted within French tank battalions in 1969 and remained in service until the end of the cold war.

 

Images:

Spoiler

 

History:

Spoiler

After WW2 the French were looking for a replacement for their old M16s that were supplied to them from the US in limited numbers. There were attempts in the 1950s already to use Panhard EBR and AMX-13 chassis for the task, mounting a 40 mm Bofors L/70 in various configurations. However, when they realized how ineffective the US' M42 Dusters were in the AA role, they decided to ditch the entire thing with the Bofors and decided to go for a smaller caliber. So in the end they picked the 30 mm Hispano Suiza HSS 831.A. in a twin mount and in 1969 development was finished and it was put into service within French tank battalions. The AMX-13 DCA saw limited production - only 60 built - but was nonetheless a great anti-aircraft vehicle for its time. The vehicle however never saw combat and was only used in training exercises and with the arrival of highly effective SAM-systems the AMX-13 DCA was rendered obsolete pretty quickly.

 

Specifications:

Armament:

2x 30mm HS-831A autocannons (NOT the same as on the British Falcon, the French used the A version of the HS-831 whereas the British used the L version for the most part)

600 round capacity (Falcon has 620 for comparison)

Guns are NOT stabilized

RoF: 650 RPM (600 RPM on the Falcon)

Muzzle velocity: 920 m/sec with normal AP and HE ammo (Falcon has 1080 m/sec muzzle velocity)

Traverse: 360° 

Elevation: -5° / +85°

With powered turret traverse and elevation the vehicle can rotate its turret  at an amazing rate of 80° per second and can elevate its guns at up to 45° per second - this might compensate for the lack of any stabilization and rather low muzzle velocity.

The vehicle also has 2x2 smoke dischargers on the back of the turret as seen in the very last image

 

As for ammunition its also slightly different when compared to the Falcon: 

"Two different loadings of the 30 � 170 have seen service. The original type was for the HS-831A gun, used only by France (in the AMX 13 SPAAG) and Saudi Arabia (AMX 30 SPAAG). These were mainly brass-cased, and used heavy shells with a conical ogive and a brass driving band. Muzzle velocity was 920 m/s. Most production is for the slightly modified HS-831L: this uses steel cases with lighter shells having a more conventional ogive and sintered iron driving bands. Muzzle velocity is 1,080 m/s. The two types are not interchangeable due to the different ballistics. "

This also explains the much higher muzzle velocity of the Falcon's guns. I couldnt find anything about the ammo types used on the AMX except for their muzzle velocity, but expect similar HE damage output and around 15-20mm less penetration on all kinds of AP shells compared to the Falcon (i used the Falcon comparison way too often).

 

Propulsion:

Power to weight ratio: 14.5 hp/t

Combat weight: 17.2t (37919 ibs)

Engine: Model 8Gxb 8-cylinder petrol, 250 HP at 3.200 RPM

Transmission: Manual, 5 forward, 1 reverse 

Top speed: 60 km/h (37mph)

480L fuel capacity

Suspension: Torsion bar

Wheelbase: Tracked chassis, 5 roadwheels, drive sprocket front, idler rear, 2.16 m track, 3.00 m length, 0.35 m width

Turn radius: Skid turns

Ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

Ground clearance: 0.37 m

Fording: 0.6m

Gradient: 60%

Trench: 1.6m 

Wall: 0.65 m

 

Armour protection:

It had 3 crew members protected in pure RHA ranging from 20-8mm in thickness, enough to protect the crew from low caliber firearms, artillery and even HMGs at longer ranges for a small amount of time.

 

Dimensions: 

4.9x2.51x3.80m

5.4m when the guns face foward

 

 

So what are your thoughts about this little French SPAAG? Leave your thoughts down below and vote on the poll! I'd actually really like to see how the French SPAAG tree is gonna turn out, besides this neat little thing, another protoype of the AMX-13 DCA armed with a 40mm L/70 Bofors that i mentioned in the "History" tab and the US M16s that the French got, there really arent any other proper AA vehicle that the French made so they're gonna have a huge gap around tier 3 unless Gaijin digs up some prototype i havent yet found. Anyway, thanks for reading and sorry for any minor grammar mistakes, my first language is german :3

 

Sources:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/France/AMX-13-DCA/

http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/EE03 - AMX-13 DCA.html

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/53594-Any-info-on-this-30mm

http://www.massimocorner.com/afv/Surviving_AMX-13_DCA.pdf - some more images can be found here

http://encyclopedie-des-armes.com/index.php/unites-mobiles/canon-anti-aeriens-automoteurs-moderne/1050-amx-13-dca

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_13_DCA

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Alphanoodle

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

After investigating this topic, it appears that this is not the same vehicle that was implemented in 1.75 "La Résistance".

 

Having said that, the topic is Open for Discussion once more.

Edited December 20, 2017 by SAUBER_KH7

[Alphanoodle 526]

So apparently, Gaijin has decided to implement the AMX-30 DCA instead of the AMX-13 DCA, which TBH makes no sense. The AMX-30 DCA wasn't used within the French army due to very high costs in both development and production coupled with a radar that had severe problems in bad weather conditions. However in 1975 a contract was signed with Saudi Arabia and they ended up using some of them. Even though the AMX-30 has twice the ammo capacity of the AMX-13, I'd still prefer to have a top tier SPAAG that was actually used by the French rather than this thing. Anyway, what do you guys think about that? 

[CaID 8,996]

2 hours ago, Alphanoodle said:

So apparently, Gaijin has decided to implement the AMX-30 DCA instead of the AMX-13 DCA, which TBH makes no sense. The AMX-30 DCA wasn't used within the French army due to very high costs in both development and production coupled with a radar that had severe problems in bad weather conditions. However in 1975 a contract was signed with Saudi Arabia and they ended up using some of them. Even though the AMX-30 has twice the ammo capacity of the AMX-13, I'd still prefer to have a top tier SPAAG that was actually used by the French rather than this thing. Anyway, what do you guys think about that? 

AMX 30 DCA and the AMX 13 DAC/40, both was proposal anti-air tank that was never produced but the AMX 13 DCA was produced and put into service in a good number. we should put the AMX 30 DCA at tier 6 and put the AMC 13 DCA (with the twin 30mm) in tier 5. if the radar become operational, the feature could be limited to tier 6, wich i would like to mention the prototype of the AMX 13 DCA wasn't equip with Radar.

[Xenecrite 899]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

+1

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

Since the developers are reportedly having difficulty finding detailed information on this vehicle I have decided to provide you with some credible sources for your suggestion. 

 

Senger und Etterlin, F.M. Taschenbuch Der Panzer 1969. (pp. 128-130). Munchen. J. F. Lehmanns Verlag. 1969

Senger und Etterlin, F.M. Taschenbuch Der Panzer 1976. (pp. 236-240). Munchen. J. F. Lehmanns Verlag. 1976

Jeudy Gabriel Jean. Le Materiel De L'Armee De Terre Francaise. (pp. 52). Paris. Crepin-LeBlond & Cie Editeurs. 1972

 

 

[Milocat 4,857]

+1 for more French ground vehicles.  This would be a perfect addition.

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Would be a easy asset flip for them to do.

Since we have both parts in game

[Cedjoe 5,482]

7 hours ago, Wolf_89 said:

Would be a easy asset flip for them to do.

Since we have both parts in game

There are 15+ vehicles for the French tree that could be made by merging different turrets and chassis that we already have in game 

[Wolf_89 2,525]

On 04/09/2020 at 07:01, Cedjoe said:

There are 15+ vehicles for the French tree that could be made by merging different turrets and chassis that we already have in game 

A French M47 105 would be nice to see.

Its like the Italian M47 105.

France made at least 1. Took a gun from AMX-30

Don't remember if they did any other changes then the gun.

But there is a suggestion here on the forum

And they could get many more by just change gun in a few. Like ARL-44. Early prototype had US 76mm M1 gun

 

Wish Gaijin would do more asset flips. Since that would bring 100+ vehicles without having to do much work.

But i hope they will do them correctly. And not a lazy asset flip like the AMX-13-M24. They did not change the MG mount.

The MG should be on the front of the turret. But that's just a small detail. And i can live it it. For now  

[Yontzee 1,676]

This is needed. Some may say it’s too similar to the AMX-30 DCA however this was actively used in the French Army, and its small size can make it exceptionally deadly. +1

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

+1 would be a great SPAA at BR 7.7 - 7.3

[RytisLTU1 2,585]

8 minutes ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

+1 would be a great SPAA at BR 7.7 - 7.3

Radar AA at 7.3-7.7,nah it will fit at 8.0-8.3?

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

Just now, RytisLTU1 said:

Radar AA at 7.3-7.7,nah it will fit at 8.0-8.3?

But the AMX-30 DCA already sits at BR 8.0...

[RytisLTU1 2,585]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

But the AMX-30 DCA already sits at BR 8.0...

Ohh I thought it was 8.3,then ok 7.7 at lowest, definitely not 7.3

Edited March 15, 2021 by RytisLTU1

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Now that the AMX-30 DCA is going to 8.3, I think the AMX-13 DCA would fit perfectly at 8.0, trading the now 8.0 Falcon's stabilizer for a radar.

The prototype without radar could also go to 7.7.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Cedjoe

[OnFireAgain 28]

I agree.

Currently, there is an enormous gap in AA capability in the French tree.
While a good vehicle at its BR, the AMX-13 DCA 40, with It's low turret rotation speed and low rate of fire, struggles with well played super-props, and is absolutely hopeless with jets.

The French tree would benefit from upper-mid-tier SPAAG, and the radar-less version of the AMX-13 DCA 30 could just be what is needed, (being nothing more than a non-stabilized Falcon).
You can see here that the radar-less version was not just a prototype, but also fielded and used: In these pictures (found on chars-francais.net), the Oeil Noir radar isn't folded (mechanic which would be a nice to see implemented on the AMX-30 DCA one day... It was done on the Gepard, so... why not?), it's simply not there.



Given the lack of radar and stabilizer, and its fiepower (retaining the apds of the AMX-30 DCA) a 6.7-7.3 BR bracket could be quite adequate for such a machine, and fill the massive BR capability-gap between the 4.7 AMX-13 DCA 40 and the 8.3 AMX-30 DCA.

Moreover, on a historical and realism point of view, using this vehicle makes the most sense, as it was the actual SPAAG of the French army. 

This vehicle family would also require minimal development to make available, as the chassis and turret models are already in-game...

Edited June 26, 2021 by OnFireAgain

[SnakeMantis007@psn 30]

It would be a good reinforcement for the French SPAAG line.

 

+1

[Abaddon75 460]

could be nice, maybe it's prototype without radar could be 7.7 / 8.0 (I hear it's already passed, but there is one extra pic here so I'll let it like it is)
 

Spoiler

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Abaddon75