Rptd 30 May 2018 M1 Abrams 3 rounds pack

[CyrusJackson 1,825]

Problem: The 3 rounds pack in the M1 hull isn't used first. This 3 round pack was never considered part of the ready racks(not even of the semi-ready rack) and simply used as additional stowage. It should be emptied first when taking 3 rounds less than full ammo load. Right now the 8 rounds hull blowout box and the 22 rounds in the turret semi-ready racks are used before the 3 rounds pack in the hull.

This error defeats the whole purpose of having ammo blow out panels.

 

Screenshot of the said bug:

As we can see. The 3 rounds pack is still here despite the 2 safe blowout stowage empty.

 

Reference:

R.P. Hunnicutt Abrams: A History of the American Main Battle Tank, Vol. 2 page 208

Spoiler

 

R.P. Hunnicutt Abrams: A History of the American Main Battle Tank, Vol. 2 page 209

 

Spoiler

 

 

Solution: The 3 shell pack should be used first and not be refilled as long as the semi-ready racks are full (22 rounds right of the turret, 8 rounds in the safe hull compartment).

 

2018_03_27_13_47_27__10232.clog

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Hi,

   Thanks for the report.

 

Hunnicutt is an Authored reference and requires and independent concurring reference.  As per the guidelines.

Quote

Historical Issues Referencing Information

 

The required number of References depends on the type of sources presented:
OEM Manuals    -  User Manuals / Repair Manuals / Factory Manuals etc (Flight/Pilot/Maintenance Manuals, Engineering Drawings etc) - Historically acknowledged reference sources - single source is required. (Preferred)
Authored works   -  Reference Books on collections of vehicles/aircraft/ships ('coffee table books') Biographies, Specialist Books, "Expert" opinion publications, websites, industry magazines etc - at least two unrelated sources required.*

 

*Please be reminded that Wikipedia or other private Websites are generally not considered as reliable sources.

 

• Please ensure the references have:  Report/Document Type, Report/Document Name, Author, Date, ISBN/ISSN, relevant Pg No's etc - so our Historical consultant can review and check the accuracy of those documents against the substantial Gaijin Historical Database and Reference Sources.
• Please provide scans of all pages referenced and a scan of the front cover of publication/book.  
• For Web sources. Please provide the link to the actual relevant section or document.  If this is not possible and only higher links can be referenced then please provide page or title information to locate the relevant reference.
• Photographs need to be fully referenced.

Thanks

[CyrusJackson 1,825]

Hi,

 

Finding information on this is hard as it is a very specific issue and is more about crew training than actual vehicle specification. On top of it, the 3 round rack was removed in the M1A1 due to the danger it presented. So I can't use information about the M1A1/higher either.

 

Here's another piece of info I found so far. I don't have the book so it's a simple preview. not sure if that's enough.

 

https://books.google.ch/books?id=M1P6jT8_yrgC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=m1+abrams+3+round+hull&source=bl&ots=U8xSWB1uQW&sig=m7YQX916kMjKGX9H0UIlO_vRMv0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibz7TV043aAhUGnRQKHfYwA8U4ChDoAQg9MAI#v=snippet&q=blow&f=false

 

M1 Abrams at War By Michael Green

Here on Page 108, It says "The Abrams turret bustle provided the most logical location for storing most of the vehicle's main gun ammunition.

 

To note if that's of any value: From a logical viewpoint. It make no sense for the crew to empty every safe semi-ready rack in blowout panel before using the dangerous 3 rounds pack. Especially when not on full load. The gunner has 22 shells in the blowout ready rack on the left side of the turret. No need to place these 3 non-protected shells here when you can store them in the right side of the turret or in the 8 rounds blowout storage if the turret semi-ready rack is full.

Edited March 28, 2018 by CyrusJackson

[Stormwolf7 4,898]

I've ordered a copy of TM 9-2350-255-10-2  (US Army Operations manual for the M1 105mm.)  It includes ammo stowage procedures and, hopefully, a description of that rack.
 

[Shaun_Dorrington 325]

I don't believe there are any other sources for this as the only other source that I know would confirm it is FM 3-20.12 although it is not classified it is still only approved for release to government agency's and government contractors I have access but can't share. the photos cited in of the loading sequence are from a most likely from a TM or FM and do label the three round rack in the crew compartment as stowage. I would also like to point out that loading directly from the stowage in the crew compartment would be slower than loading from the safe stowage as the safe stowage ready rack reload time is were the reload time of five seconds comes from. the reload time is even the same on the 120mm models of the Abrams as described on pg. 225 Hunnicutts book (picture below)  . I also used Hunnicutts book (same pages and illustrations) as the main source for another bug report on the same ammo rack discussed in this thread but a different bug and it was accepted as the sole source and forwarded to the devs and fixed. link listed below. based upon the facts presented here and the follow on clause from the bug report forums guidelines I do believe we have significant evidence to proceed with the bug report.

Important!

Please be aware, for claims about historical inaccuracies with vehicles in-game, it is required that at least one historically valid document is provided supporting any and all claims, if the source is not either a manufacturing document, a pilot or crew manual or any factory sourced documentation then at least two unrelated publications will be required as reference (this may be rescinded depending on the availability or reliability of the source).

Edited March 30, 2018 by Shaun_Dorrington

[Shaun_Dorrington 325]

Michael greens book  M1 Abrams Main battle tank page 66-67 confirms the diagram on pg 209 of Hunnicutts book  it also adds that the 3 rounds were stowed in spall proof containers. The first three photos are from greens book, the second three are from Hunnicutts book (all pertinent data for citing Greens book is included in the first photo)

Edited April 3, 2018 by Shaun_Dorrington
clarity

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks, I will read them and get back to you.

[Stormwolf7 4,898]

Additional information regarding the spall resistant containers. From TM 9-2350-255-10-2  Operators manual.  (They're available on E-bay, as well as the worldcat library and several libraries.)

 

(Stowage is better explained in Volume 3- which I'm still waiting on.)
However: This is the loaders operation of the Turret Floor Ready Rack.


I edited the picture to highlight the spall cover for the TFRRack to include the spring door.

Highlighted is the illustration of the spall cover for the ammo compartment. It doesn't look like it should resist a direct penetrator hit, but it should resist spalling.

When Volume three arrives I should have further information. If I need to create a separate thread, let me know.
 

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks all.

On 3/30/2018 at 12:33 PM, Shaun_Dorrington said:

Important!

Please be aware, for claims about historical inaccuracies with vehicles in-game, it is required that at least one historically valid document is provided supporting any and all claims, if the source is not either a manufacturing document, a pilot or crew manual or any factory sourced documentation then at least two unrelated publications will be required as reference (this may be rescinded depending on the availability or reliability of the source).

You need to read that more carefully

Quote

if the source is not either a manufacturing document, a pilot or crew manual or any factory sourced documentation then at least two unrelated publications will be required

Hunnicutt is not one of those.  It is an Authored work.  There is also some flexibility for the Technical Moderator.  However, normally they will ask for references that comply.

Quote

Historical Issues Referencing Information

 

The required number of References depends on the type of sources presented:
OEM Manuals    -  User Manuals / Repair Manuals / Factory Manuals etc (Flight/Pilot/Maintenance Manuals, Engineering Drawings etc) - Historically acknowledged reference sources - single source is required. (Preferred)
Authored works   -  Reference Books on collections of vehicles/aircraft/ships ('coffee table books') Biographies, Specialist Books, "Expert" opinion publications, websites, industry magazines etc - at least two unrelated sources required.*

 

*Please be reminded that Wikipedia or other private Websites are generally not considered as reliable sources.

 

• Please ensure the references have:  Report/Document Type, Report/Document Name, Author, Date, ISBN/ISSN, relevant Pg No's etc - so our Historical consultant can review and check the accuracy of those documents against the substantial Gaijin Historical Database and Reference Sources.
• Please provide scans of all pages referenced and a scan of the front cover of publication/book.  
• For Web sources. Please provide the link to the actual relevant section or document.  If this is not possible and only higher links can be referenced then please provide page or title information to locate the relevant reference.
• Photographs need to be fully referenced.

 

I have enough references now for this issue however.  I will read and get back to you all.

 

Cheers

[Stormwolf7 4,898]

Volume 3 Arrived earlier today, and because I'm pedantic, I'm including it.  (It actually shows how it's situated in the vehicle too.)
 

 

 

It looks like 3pack is nestled, but I'm not familiar enough with the tank to know what it's nestled underneath.
 

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks

[Shaun_Dorrington 325]

On 4/3/2018 at 7:44 PM, Shaun_Dorrington said:

 

 

 

 

 

the rounds are listed as 3 low profile stowed rounds in the first picture and are located left and low of the breach. The 120mm and 105mm abrams reload time is based of of the loader loading from the safe stowed ready rack directly behind him as stated in the first picture and multiple other sources. I have no clue why this is even being debated at this point, the three ammunition pack should not be a ready rack as there is no existing literature that states it is. the sustained reload speed in game (10-12 rounds per minute) is clearly based upon using the 22 ready rounds.  the three round pack in the turret basket should be the last one to be loaded and when 44 rounds are loaded there should be zero rounds in the turret basket. problem solved 

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks.. I should get to this in the next couple of days.

 

Cheers

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Hi
  Thank you for your interest and help improving the game.  

 

Your information has been forwarded to the Developers for their consideration.  

 

This thread will remain unlocked for one week (7 days) so that anyone with additional information\evidence\examples will have a place to post.  
After this time the report will remain active but will be archived.

 

It will also serve as a place where the Developers will post questions for you to answer so please keep up to date here.

 

 

PS:  The US Army vehicle manual (TM 9-2350-255-10-2) does refer to the three rounds on the turret floor as a ready rack.

 

 

[Shaun_Dorrington 325]

 

11 hours ago, KnightoftheAbyss said:

Hi
  Thank you for your interest and help improving the game.  

 

Your information has been forwarded to the Developers for their consideration.  

 

This thread will remain unlocked for one week (7 days) so that anyone with additional information\evidence\examples will have a place to post.  
After this time the report will remain active but will be archived.

 

It will also serve as a place where the Developers will post questions for you to answer so please keep up to date here.

 

 

PS:  The US Army vehicle manual (TM 9-2350-255-10-2) does refer to the three rounds on the turret floor as a ready rack.

 

 

What crew in their right mind would load a lightly protected ammo rack that takes a significant amount of time to open before they loaded a 22 round protected ammo ready  rack that could be accessed in a fraction of a second. if you read the labels here on page 5-11 it states that there is a ready door and a stowage door that confirms what hunnicutts book says. the fact of the matter is that there is no source material on what the turret "ready racks" reload speed would be and any crew in their right mind would load the 22 round ready rack and semi ready rack before loading the turret "ready rack" that requires a lengthy process to open and is blocked by other equipment. as cited previously in this thread the 120mm gun and 105mm gun are clearly capable of a 5 second reload by a trained crew member using the ready rack in the rear of the turret and that's the way the army intended the tank be used.  also according to the field manual for Abrams gunnery the loader of the M1 M1A1 and M1A2 will load from the protected ready rack of the abrams.

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Shaun_Dorrington

[KnightoftheAbyss 3,387]

Thanks