techtree Independent Dutch Ground Forces Techtree

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

On 20/09/2019 at 09:31, MadMax_ITA_ said:

The Israeli tree will never come, gaijin stated that themselves, maybe under premium firm like we already have but never as a full tree. Sweden is the tree that is at max extension for now and the most likely to be added. Korean tree might need some work since it would only start at ERA 3 at Best. The other minor nations might be Dutch since is bigger then an ipotetica Belgian tree, Hungarian tree but it would have the same amount of copy pasted or just slightly variation of existing vehicles, it would be rely on those in ERA 4 and 5. Romania and Chekz could fill it but alone would be impossible. This are the only possible nations. Canada Australia and other commonwealth nations might form a commonwealth tree OR become branches of the British tree

The developers once stated that a lot of things wouldn't happen but look where we are, there is a Chinese tech tree fully of copy/paste, we have modern tanks like the Abrams & Leopard 2a5, we have helicopters and naval vessels in-game. Max, if you came to me years ago and told me War Thunder was going to be like this I would've called you flat out crazy but it's the reality we live in today. A Dutch or Benelux tree actually sounds like an interesting concept to complement the Western Allies just like the Soviets have China now. I have no issue with copy/paste as long as the vehicles are unique and fun to play. Clearly Cacti and his associates have done their research on the topic and they don't disappoint.

[MadMax_ITA_ 789]

10 hours ago, Private_Wolk said:

The developers once stated that a lot of things wouldn't happen but look where we are, there is a Chinese tech tree fully of copy/paste, we have modern tanks like the Abrams & Leopard 2a5, we have helicopters and naval vessels in-game. Max, if you came to me years ago and told me War Thunder was going to be like this I would've called you flat out crazy but it's the reality we live in today. A Dutch or Benelux tree actually sounds like an interesting concept to complement the Western Allies just like the Soviets have China now. I have no issue with copy/paste as long as the vehicles are unique and fun to play. Clearly Cacti and his associates have done their research on the topic and they don't disappoint.

Exactly if they are not just simply copy pasted but modified by their country it's way better, the thing is that this difference must be stated or otherwise people won't see them very well like the Chinese tree

[霧 丹爪モ匕口丂 靄 466]

3 hours ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

Exactly if they are not just simply copy pasted but modified by their country it's way better, the thing is that this difference must be stated or otherwise people won't see them very well like the Chinese tree

The problem with Chinese Tree is that it's just been added into game and still not open to everyone... So they gonna add more unique and Chinese modified vehicles with time. We shouldn't go hard this much, it's not fair

[MadMax_ITA_ 789]

2 hours ago, CneuHa3_TUR said:

The problem with Chinese Tree is that it's just been added into game and still not open to everyone... So they gonna add more unique and Chinese modified vehicles with time. We shouldn't go hard this much, it's not fair

The real problem comes from the fact that the tree has American and Russian vehicles all together. If and when they'll get new and unique tanks that tree will still have American and Russian tanks making invincible lines for everyone that posses them, removing them won't reduce the problem. If new nations will come they'll need to take their good time, make research make models and give us the full tree with less copy paste as possible other wise it would get like this again

[霧 丹爪モ匕口丂 靄 466]

42 minutes ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

The real problem comes from the fact that the tree has American and Russian vehicles all together. If and when they'll get new and unique tanks that tree will still have American and Russian tanks making invincible lines for everyone that posses them, removing them won't reduce the problem. If new nations will come they'll need to take their good time, make research make models and give us the full tree with less copy paste as possible other wise it would get like this again

Welp... from now on we don't have much possibility to add a Nations Tech Tree which has %70 or above unique designs and vehicles. Accept it or not other Nations have US, Russian or Brittish made Vehicles. They've been selling this hardware to others for long time and they still do... So if we want to see new nations in this game, We kinda need face with this truth. Just need to give priority their unique designs and modifications in developing 

[super_cacti 1,071]

1 hour ago, CneuHa3_TUR said:

Welp... from now on we don't have much possibility to add a Nations Tech Tree which has %70 or above unique designs and vehicles. Accept it or not other Nations have US, Russian or Brittish made Vehicles. They've been selling this hardware to others for long time and they still do... So if we want to see new nations in this game, We kinda need face with this truth. Just need to give priority their unique designs and modifications in developing 

Well atleast with the Dutch you still only get western developed vehicles.

We never operated Russian build equipment. So that is a small plus point 

China is a bit odd because they used vehicles from pretty much all mayor nations 

[kamikazi21358 998]

I have two things to add:

 

1.  Shouldn’t the YP-408s be in the main tech tree?  There are not too many domestically dutch built vehicles, so shouldn’t it get a fast track to the main tech tree instead of a premium?

 

2.  The YP-408 (105), did it use a 105mm, or is it a 106mm recoilless rifle? If so, shouldn’t it be YP-408 (106)?  Or if I’m wrong, nvm.

[super_cacti 1,071]

2 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I have two things to add:

 

1.  Shouldn’t the YP-408s be in the main tech tree?  There are not too many domestically dutch built vehicles, so shouldn’t it get a fast track to the main tech tree instead of a premium?

 

Well you see, when your making a techtree you also need interesting stuff people can buy as premium.

And considering we had multible version of the 105mm version, it's always nice to have a premium version.

 

2 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

2.  The YP-408 (105), did it use a 105mm, or is it a 106mm recoilless rifle? If so, shouldn’t it be YP-408 (106)?  Or if I’m wrong, nvm.

 

It is an recoilles rifle, but for some reason we used the 105mm naming for them.

 

 

Here are some images of them.

 

DAF YP-408 (105) TLV-I

Spoiler

 

DAF YP-408 (105) TLV-II

Spoiler

 

DAF YP-408 (105) TLV-III

Spoiler

 

[Matt_82 1,096]

I really hope that after the swedish tree gets added that Gaijin slows down when it comes to adding new nations.  A bit of imagination will be needed to fit some of these lesser trees into the game.  Adding new nations in certain patches just because they've always done it is a very short runway to be using.

 

As for this specific tree, I can't see anything that would benefit the game.  Anything of value could just be added to existing trees or in some "minor allies" tree should it ever appear.

 

Tis a no from me.

[Gilibran 226]

I dont think it's a good idea to add small nations in their own tree, they will never have a descent line up or just full of copy paste tanks from other nations. What would be a better idea is a Nato and Warschau Pakt tank tree where you can research other vehicles you can add to and use in any of your "main" trees. So research it once, spade it once and then use it in any of your lineups anytime.

 

For example, only if you are playing a country part of Nato you can research and use the above mentioned YP-408 in any of your lineups. So you could use the same vehicle in your Italian, US, French, Brittish, German, US line up once you researched it.

 

There are alot of interesting vehicles like for instance the Dutch build Fennek in both AA and AT role, also in use with the German army. FN from Belgium manufactured some armored vehicles to, Sibmas ASFV 90, ACEC Cobra 90, FN 4RM/62F AB, BDX 4x4 armoured car with ATGM launchers. South Africa has some good vehicles to, Rooikat for instance. I think they should have done that instead of a seperate Swedish tree, Dutch army uses the CV90 to, also they already put the Argentinian TAM in the German tree. There are alot of countries that made 1 or 2 interesting armored vehicles but not enough to justify a seperate nation tree.

[armando30 493]

great effort but won't work, there are nations with a lot more material (Israel, Switzerland, etc) that they have said time and time again won't come into the game as a standalone Nation

let us be serious here, you don't have a single originally Dutch tank in all 7 Ranks, a couple of trucks and armored cars but everything else is foreign, including the Marmon-Herrington tanks, from what I've read only 1 of them was purposedly designed for the Dutch, the others were originally private ventures that eventually got interest by the US Army and later some Dutch representatives that went to the US and saw them

we can't even see specific modifications of foreign tanks like the French and British did with the Sherman

 

but keep up the work of gathering info on new vehicles, although at one point they were against a multinational Tech Tree they seem to be more open now, and if we consider that in the last couple of years they had made an effort to copy what the competition does (Super Conqueror, Panther II, etc) we might see a mercenary Tech Tree with vehicles that you can change nation at will (with the competition it changes both the crew language and names but also the markings and paint scheme on the vehicle), that is a good opportunity for them to have content to add 3, 4 or 5 years from now

[super_cacti 1,071]

3 hours ago, armando30 said:

We can't even see specific modifications of foreign tanks like the French and British did with the Sherman

 

I will have to correct you here. If you look on the top of the techtree you will see the color code and futher flag variants we used in the techtree.

If the background flag is mostly a Dutch one with only a little bit a forgeign flag behind it then this vehicle is modified by the Dutch and thus makes it unique to the Dutch.

 

So please go back and look at the techtree again. There are a lot of unique Dutch vehicles in this techtree 

Edited November 26, 2019 by super_cacti

[armando30 493]

1 hour ago, super_cacti said:

 

I will have to correct you here. If you look on the top of the techtree you will see the color code and futher flag variants we used in the techtree.

If the background flag is mostly a Dutch one with only a little bit a forgeign flag behind it then this vehicle is modified by the Dutch and thus makes it unique to the Dutch.

 

So please go back and look at the techtree again. There are a lot of unique Dutch vehicles in this techtree 

 

ok, so:

 

Centurion Mk7/2 NL

modification: different type of MGs, addition of infrared search lights and additional wheel on the back of the turret

result: still 99% original

 

if its this type of "unique" modification you meant then it's simply not enough, they are less than a third of all vehicles you proposed

 

also it seems you misunderstood, I'm not against it, I am just realistic about the fact it won't happen, like I mentioned there are nations with many more original designs that are also unlikely they will be added on their own, if the are not added how can we expect the Netherlands to be added?

that is why you should focus on Dutch modifications and do a detailed research on them since those are the only ones that could eventually be added either as event vehicles or a multinational tech tree, as for the "fillers" they are simply copy&paste and are the vast majority of the tech tree

[super_cacti 1,071]

1 hour ago, armando30 said:

also it seems you misunderstood, I'm not against it, I am just realistic about the fact it won't happen, like I mentioned there are nations with many more original designs that are also unlikely they will be added on their own, if the are not added how can we expect the Netherlands to be added?

 

Oh I am aware of that, but since you pointed it out I wanted to explain so that other people that read our comments will know the awnser to it.

 

I will not go in great depth about the modifications we made on existing vehicles, and to be honest there is no need to start such a discussion.

But here is a post about the Centurions, wich I recommend you read if you have time to spare:

But after all the research me and the Dutch TT team have done we have found many unique Dutch vehicles. Wich to the naked eye might seem 100% copy paste, but in reality are sometimes almost 70% Dutch.

Edited November 26, 2019 by super_cacti

[PikPikker 445]

I say +1 without any doubts. It would be amazing to see them all in the game!

 

I was surprised Netherlands has so many great and special vehicles, and as a tech tree builder I could not think such an interesting proposal is even possible. 

 

My opinion is "yes" for every independent tech tree for nation which has at least few unique vehicles from different eras. The Dutch tree is a way further from this minimum, but the Chinese one wouldn't pass it. But what do we see today?.. I believe every minor nation tech tree has a clear chance to be implemented, it is just a matter of time, so we should have patience. 

 

 

[Gilibran 226]

As a proud on our army Dutchman myself i dont think adding the same tank but with modifications is a good idea, you want truly unique vehicles, not a in reality slightly modified on details only unless you are talking serious rebuilds and modifications like the Israelis did to the super Shermans and the SHo't kal.

 

I rather only see unique vehicles in a Nato and Warschaupakt tech tree instead of several small trees with modifications that dont add anything real to gameplay, you can use for several nations. There is no real added value for X different versions of the same tank that is already in another techtree.

[MasterOfUltramar 1,711]

+1 for the non copy paste vehicles.

[Borotovas 4,500]

10 minutes ago, FinlandSupreme said:

+1 for the non copy paste vehicles.

 

There's only a handful of non-copy+paste vehicles. It seems strange to support a tech tree that can not function without copy and paste vehicles.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Borotovas

[MasterOfUltramar 1,711]

5 minutes ago, Borotovas said:

 

There's only a handful of non-copy+paste vehicles. It seems strange to support a tech tree that can not function without copy and paste vehicles.

half, only the light/medium and medium/heavy tank lines after tier 1 are copy paste. Just cut them and put this dutch tree as unlockable when you reach some tier in brit tree.

[Borotovas 4,500]

10 minutes ago, FinlandSupreme said:

half, only the light/medium and medium/heavy tank lines after tier 1 are copy paste. Just cut them and put this dutch tree as unlockable when you reach some tier in brit tree.

 

Why not just have small independent TTs?

 

Every TT doesn't have to be some large megalith like the USSR TT or USA TT.

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

12 minutes ago, FinlandSupreme said:

half, only the light/medium and medium/heavy tank lines after tier 1 are copy paste. Just cut them and put this dutch tree as unlockable when you reach some tier in brit tree.

Please for the love of God don't create a flame war with Borotovas on this suggestion thread. If you have any personal disputes take them to your PM inbox. 

[MasterOfUltramar 1,711]

Just now, Private_Wolk said:

Please for the love of God don't create a flame war with Borotovas on this suggestion thread. If you have any personal disputes take them to your PM inbox. 

lol why u quoting me, I havent talked to him here.

[Borotovas 4,500]

8 minutes ago, Private_Wolk said:

Please for the love of God don't create a flame war with Borotovas on this suggestion thread. If you have any personal disputes take them to your PM inbox. 

 

I'm just bringing up solid points about smaller sized tech trees. There is no "flame war".

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

2 hours ago, Borotovas said:

 

I'm just bringing up solid points about smaller sized tech trees. There is no "flame war".

I'm just reminding the both of two, last time you managed to derail your own suggestion.

[Borotovas 4,500]

25 minutes ago, Private_Wolk said:

I'm just reminding the both of two, last time you managed to derail your own suggestion.

 

Most people have a negative attitude towards smaller tech trees because of copy and paste vehicles. Just take a look at the Arab-Iranian helicopters tech tree, where a bunch of people who dislike "copy+paste" voted "no".

 

In reality, I can see WT adding smaller tech trees for smaller nations, with some copy+paste vehicles to fill in the gaps. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever. For example, Gaijin could add India or Pakistan or ASEAN, but those TTs would just have to be smaller to have a higher proportion of modified vehicles or unique vehicles.