guntank New Experimental Gun-Tank (Ko), Ho-Ri : Japanese Jagdtiger

[aizenns 3,591]

新砲戦車(甲) ホリ車

New Experimental Gun-Tank (Ko), Ho-Ri

 

Spoiler

I failed to scan it at library

This book author Fujita have original one, so Gaijin need to contact him. 

 

 

Thanks to @B000B & @Mai_Waffentrager

B000B give me very precise research about history of “Ho-Ri” project. I couldn't post this suggestion without his help.

Mai_waffentrager give me information about Ho-Ri Production in War Thunder.

 

Now, in War Thunder there are two Ho-Ri: “Prototype” & “Production”.

But, “Ho-Ri Prototype” model is only mock-up built early in the project, and “Production” is imaginary one.

However, in the end of design, this tank has very powerful weapons. Not only 105mm cannon but also 20mm twin AA & 37mm tank gun! This model is very well-known model in Japan, and according to army arsenal reports, in the end of the war this tank actually produced in progress (*). This model of Ho-Ri is known "Ho-Ri II". (first appear of this is Nihon-no-Sensha, 1978)

 

(*)there is a possibility that "Ho-Ri" exist only early mock-up and blueprints

 

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Specification

Part	Type	Specification
Engine	Kawasaki Ha-9 IIb (BMW remodeling water-cooled V12 engine)	160×170 550HP / 1500rpm
Hull (*2)	Own weight	40.0t
	Full Length	About 9.2m(?)
	Hull length	7.4m
	Width	3.05m
	Height	2.7m
	Front Armor	75mm or 125mm (*1)
	Side Armor	25mm
	Crew	6
Weapons	Experimental 105mm tank gun (RoF: 15 fire / 1 min)	1 (50)
	Type 1, 37mm tank gun	1 (100)
	Type 97, 7.7mm machine gun	2 (4,980)
	20mm twin AA cannon	1 (480)

 

 

*1: According to “Shikenshi”, they success to develop only 75mm, so Ho-Ri in progress will have 75mm armor or add on armor as KV-1 ZIS-5. But, actually in progress Ho-Ri have 75mm armor.

*2: Some documents about Ho-Ri, its size is varying, but I measurement the diagram of this and values in “Ho-Ri Research ledger, January 1944” (quoted in Kunimoto: 2002) is most suite.

 

Spoiler

• This tank had stereo range finder on the cupola. It means this tank have very good range finder as after-war tanks in game (RB/SB).
• 105mm cannon has auto-loader as “Type 3, 12cm AAA”. This tank will have very good rate of fire!
• 37mm cannon will use as spotting rifle/ smoke shells.

 

 

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About the 105mm cannon

In first test it has angulated shield, but after modified it have rounded shape.

Also, according to Kunimoto: 2002, this tank shells are three: HE, APHE, and APCR (鋼心弾)

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This auto-loader speck is very good. This auto-loader is based Type 3, 12cm AA.

According to "US Naval Technical Mission to Japan", its rate of fire is 15/min (loading time: 4 sec)

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/三式12cm高射砲

 

 

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History of Ho-Ri project

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This research by B000B. Thank you very much!

 

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First appearance of Ho-Ri in the documents is “JACAR Ref.C14011075200 第４陸軍技術研究所関係研究事項”(Army 4th Technical Research Institute research related matters).

In this document says in the plan first stage prototype complete August 1944, and construct complete March 1945.

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Second appearance is JACAR Ref.C14011080100 第１　戦車、装甲車 (Section 1, Tank and Armored car) in JACAR Ref.C14011080000 昭和１８年度（改正）研究計画 (Research Plans, fiscal year 1943).

According to this document, design already started when this document made.

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Third, JACAR Ref.C14011010100 主要兵器生産状況　昭和１９年１２月２２日　相模陸軍造兵廠 (Main weapons production results, December 22, 1944, Sagami Army Arsenal)

According to this, April to November 1944, Ho-Ri production result is 0.

And, in that time prospect of production is March built 3, and shortage to the plan is 2. It means in the first plan they built 5 in 1944, but they failed.

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Forth, JACAR ref.C13120839500 昭和２０年自１月至４月　整備計画　昭和１９．１２．２６ (January to April 1945 production plans, December 26, 1944)

This document says, in the plan January built 1, February built 2, and March built 1.

***I can’t get what means “整備”. This word using is not normal Japanese… I guess this means product start.

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Fifth, JACAR Ref.C13120849500 昭和２０年度作業計画表 昭和２０年３月３１日　相模陸軍造兵廠 (fiscal year 1945 work plan, March 31, 1945, Sagami Army Arsenal)

This document says Ho-Ri production plan is May 1945 built〔1〕, January 1946 built 〔4〕.

〔 〕means carry forward from fiscal year 1944. So Ho-Ri planned in “ref C14011010100 “and “ref.C13120839500” was not produced.

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Sixth, JACAR Ref.C14010919700 八幡製鉄所の現況 (Yawata Works production results)

This is Yawata Works production results in March 1945. According to this, early 1944 they produce armor for five Ho-Ri.

 ***Yawata Works is Japanese main Ironworks in that time.

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Seven, Munitions production results survey sheet, April to June 1945.

JACAR ref.C13120836000 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（４月分）　昭和２０年度 　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, April 1945)

JACAR Ref.C13120836400 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（５月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, May 1945)

JACAR Ref.C13120836800 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（６月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, June 1945)

According to these documents, there aren’t name of Ho-Ri. It means Ho-Ri that planned to produce in May 1945 was not completed.

 

 

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Eighth, JACAR Ref.C15011260300 三菱重工業（株）東京機器製作所 (Mitsubishi Heavy Industry, Tokyo Machine Plant)

This is part of Sagami Arsenal produced weapons list made after war.

There aren’t Ho-Ri name. It means Ho-Ri was not product completed!

***In Sagami Arsenal, Mitsubishi Tokyo Plant mostly produce tanks. Other plants of Sagami Arsenal, there aren’t Ho-Ri’s name, too.

 

 

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Last, JACAR Ref.C14010956700 未完成兵器等一覧表 (Unfinished weapons list)

This is a list of products not completed weapons. According to this document, 5 Ho-Ri were in progress (50%).

***In this document, 50% means its parts are filled.

Spoiler

 

 

In summary: Ho-Ri product not completed in the end of the war, and there are only parts.

 

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Sources

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About tank specifications  

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国本康夫(2002) ｢大威力105㎜砲の全貌｣, 『帝国陸軍戦車と砲戦車: 欧米に比肩する日本の対戦車戦闘車両の全容』, 学習研究社, P.120-128

Kunimoto Yasufumi (2002)”Whole of powerful 105mm gun” from “Imperial Army tanks and Gun Tank: The whole of the anti-tank fighting vehicle of Japan that comparable to Western”, Gakushu-Kenkyusha, P120-128

ISBN code: ISBN4-05-602723-4

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原乙未生・栄森伝治・竹内昭(1978) 『日本の戦車』, 出版協同社, P.76-81

Hara Tomio, Eimori Denji, Takeuchi Akira (1978) “JAPANESE TANKS AND ARMORED VEHICLES”, Shuppan Kyodo Publishers, P.76-81

ASIN code: B000J8HVO6

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藤田昌雄(2013) 「和製ヤークトティーガー 重砲戦車「ホリⅡ型」」, 『丸』2013年5月号, 潮書房光人社

Fujita Masao (2013) “Japanese Jagdtiger, Heavy gun tank “Ho-Ri II””, “Maru” March 2013, Ushio-shobo Kojinsha

ASIN code: B00BSDQ110

 

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四研会, 1978『四研史: 陸軍第四技術研究所の歩み』

Shikenkai, 1978 "Shikenshi: Army 4th Technical Research Institute"

Collection of Osaka University Library

 *Shikenkai is group of Army 4th Institute engineers / designers.

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19

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26

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46

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58

59

 

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三菱重工業株式会社社史編纂室編, 1961年『三菱重工業株式会社史』P.599

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries History compilation room, 1956 “History of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries” P.599

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About History of Ho-Ri

These documents are from JACAR: Japan Center for Asian Historical Records (Operated by National Archives of Japan)

If link not worked, please use reference number.

 

JACAR Ref.C14011075200 第４陸軍技術研究所関係研究事項(Army 4th Technical Research Institute research related matters)

JACAR Ref.C14011080100 第１　戦車、装甲車 (Section 1, Tank and Armored car) in JACAR Ref.C14011080000 昭和１８年度（改正）研究計画 (Research Plans, fiscal year 1943)

JACAR Ref.C14011010100 主要兵器生産状況　昭和１９年１２月２２日　相模陸軍造兵廠 (Main weapons production results, December 22, 1944, Sagami Army Arsenal)

JACAR Ref.C13120839500 昭和２０年自１月至４月　整備計画　昭和１９．１２．２６ (January to April 1945 production plans, December 26, 1944)

JACAR Ref.C13120849500 昭和２０年度作業計画表 昭和２０年３月３１日　相模陸軍造兵廠 (fiscal year 1945 work plan, March 31, 1945, Sagami Army Arsenal)

JACAR Ref.C14010919700 八幡製鉄所の現況 (Yawata Works production results)

JACAR Ref.C13120836000 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（４月分）　昭和２０年度 　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, April 1945)

JACAR Ref.C13120836400 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（５月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, May 1945)

JACAR Ref.C13120836800 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（６月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）(Munitions production results survey sheet, June 1945)

JACAR Ref.C15011260300 三菱重工業（株）東京機器製作所 (Mitsubishi Heavy Industry, Tokyo Machine Plant)

JACAR Ref.C14010956700 未完成兵器等一覧表 (Unfinished weapons list)

 

 

 

This is original research by B000B.

Spoiler

On 29/04/2018 at 23:04, B000B said:

1.ホリ車がJACARのアーカイブに最初に登場するのは恐らく<JACAR Ref.C14011075200 第４陸軍技術研究所関係研究事項>でしょう。ここでは、第一次試作が昭和19年8月、完成予定が昭和20年3月に完了となっています。

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2.次に登場するのは<JACAR Ref.C14011080100 第１　戦車、装甲車>です。これは、<JACAR Ref.C14011080000 昭和１８年度（改正）研究計画>の一部で昭和18年8月10日に作成されたものです。これによると、前月の昭和18年7月に着手したとのことなので、この資料が作成された時点で設計が始まっていた事を示しています。完成は昭和20年3月で資料1と変わりません。

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3.次に登場するのは<JACAR Ref.C14011010100 主要兵器生産状況　昭和１９年１２月２２日　相模陸軍造兵廠>です。これは相模陸軍造兵廠の昭和19年12月22日時点での生産されているものを記していると思われ、昭和19年度の4月-11月までのホリ車の生産実績は0になっており、まだ生産はないという事が分かります。また、この時点で次の3月までに生産見込みのホリ車は3両で、また年度計量に対する不足(その年度計画に対して不足している分?予定は5？)は2両とされています。年度内に1両は完成させ、資料1及び2の通りを目指していたことが伺えます。

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4.次に登場するのは資料3の4日後に作成された<JACAR ref.C13120839500 昭和２０年自１月至４月　整備計画　昭和１９．１２．２６>で、1月に1両、2月に2両、3月に1両が整備されると予定されます。なぜ4日でこんなにも「できる！」と思うようになってしまったのか謎ですが…整備計画ですのでそれぞれの月に整備が開始されるということでしょう。

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追記

表題が「昭和20年度…」になっていますが資料の表紙と目次からして恐らく書き間違えでしょう。

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5.次の登場が<JACAR Ref.C13120849500 昭和２０年度作業計画表 昭和２０年３月３１日　相模陸軍造兵廠>です。この資料は題名の通り20年度の計画表です。この資料の注目点は、ホリ車の製作が5月に〔1〕、2月に〔4〕となっていることです。さらに注目すべきは〔〕の示す意味で、本資料2頁目の備考によると「〔〕ハ十九年度ヨリノ繰越数ヲ示ス」とのこと。つまりは資料3乃至は4で整備される予定だったものは生産できず、新年度に繰り越されたということが分かります。

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6.次の資料は<JACAR Ref.C14010919700 八幡製鉄所の現況>です。昭和20年3月時点での八幡製鉄所の状況がまとめられており、これによると昭和19年前半に試作車の枠でホリの装甲が5輌分生産されたとの事です。

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7.次の資料は3つまとめて<JACAR ref.C13120836000 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（４月分）　昭和２０年度 &nbsp; &nbsp;（２）><JACAR Ref.C13120836400 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（５月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）><JACAR Ref.C13120836800 軍需品整備状況調査表（属表共）（６月分）　昭和２０年度　（２）>です。これら資料も題名の通り昭和20年4-6月までの相模陸軍造兵廠での整備状況を示すものです。しかし、いずれの資料にもホリ車の名前は見られず、よって、資料5が作成されていた時点で計画されていた5月に1両の整備開始は達成出来なかったということになります。東京は1945年3-5月に大規模な空襲を受けているが三菱重工社史によると「当所への空襲は昭和20年(1945年)4~5の両月に3回に亘ったが、被害は青年学校、同実習場、寄宿舎等の建物約9000坪と機械設備若干に止まった。」とのことで、東京機器製作所への被害は軽微でこれが整備に影響したわけではないようです。

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8.次は終戦後に相模陸軍造兵廠下の製作所で生産された兵器のリストのうち東京機器製作所の部である<JACAR Ref.C15011260300 三菱重工業（株）東京機器製作所>です。この資料にもホリ車の名前はなく、やはり生産はされずのようです。

 

9.最後の登場が終戦後に作成された<JACAR Ref.C14010956700 未完成兵器等一覧表>です。ここではホリ車は5両が50%まで整備された事が記されています。

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現在閲覧できる資料から推測できる結論として、当初の計画は昭和20年度3月完成だったが結局大幅に遅れて昭和20年に試作車を1輌生産し、翌2月に4輌を量産しようとしたが、間に合わずに終戦を迎えた。また、装甲は5輌分生産されたが、終戦時に5輌50%であることから、試作も出来ず材料だけ集まったものと考えられる。

On 05/06/2018 at 22:33, B000B said:

From a point of view of a person who researched the history of Ho-Ri project, I think one of the Ho-Ri's which was planned to be produced in May 1945 but was cancelled is a prototype model. And the other 4 Ho-Ri's which were planned to be produced in February 1946 are production models. The Japanese army at that time seemed that planned to do test drives to check for issues and the performance of the tank between May 1945 and February 1946.

This leaves the question if the prototype ever existed, the answer is yes. The Ho-Ri was tested with the body of the Type 5 Medium Tank, the Chi-Ri, which was produced in March 1945, after that. I think that the army had only considered the Ho-Ri with the body of a Type 5 Chi-Ri as a prototype so that would explain why it was never produced in May 1945.

So I think the Ho-Ri in game is a good tank but wouldn't exist in history, existed only as a mock-up.

 

There would be no reason for the Ho-Ri to be cancelled because of the damage of booming to Tokyo by U.S.Military. Because, according to the book “History of the Mitsubishi Heavy Industry”, the damage to the Tokyo Machine factory was minor and didn't have any large effect.

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Edited June 11, 2018 by aizenns
fix source/ fix sheet of history of Ho-Ri project/ add rate of fire / change title

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[XDrake991 278]

First of all great post, really good job! If there is enough information that Gaijin can acquire about this vehicle to create an accurate representation in the game I am all for it.

[島風 2,396]

Can I Finally Get My Secondary 37mm Into The Ho-Ri Hull? Great!

Amazing Post; +1

Edited May 31, 2018 by ShimakazeChan

[Van_Darkholme69 500]

Last I checked, Mai claimed that the Ho-Ri Prototype was built and the 'Production' design was what the IJA was going to go with. Does the sources you've found undeniably prove her wrong? I would want the Ho-Ri II in-game either way.

[aizenns 3,591]

3 hours ago, Muammar_Gaddaf69 said:

Last I checked, Mai claimed that the Ho-Ri Prototype was built and the 'Production' design was what the IJA was going to go with. Does the sources you've found undeniably prove her wrong? I would want the Ho-Ri II in-game either way.

It’s bit difficult.

I can’t quote her primary messages by forum rule.

 

But I have some supporting evidences.

 

•about weapon

All books or documents without first plans that she quoted in Japan says, Ho-Ri have 105mm, 37mm, 7mm, and twin 20mm.

Especially, its designers(Shokenkai) says so. I think it means Ho-Ri plan that finally decided is this.

 

•about it’s front armor.

The first plan of Chi-Ri had slope armor as Ho-Ri in game.

But you know finally constructed one is vertical armor with 37mm.

So, I guess we’ll-known mock-up photo is early plan of Ho-Ri, and after they decide to Chi-Ri’s plan, Ho-Ri’s design changed to blueprint in August 15, 1944.

 

Also, Wikipedia says when make Chi-Ri’s side armor at Yawata Works, that is too big and it is very difficult to make. Finally they over the planed schedule one month(sorry, I don’t know it’s source)

Japanese didn’t have good technology about tanks you knows, so I think such a large front armor as Ho-Ri in game is impossible to build in Japan at that time.

 

•about name of Ho-Ri

First known of Ho-Ri is book by Akira Takeuchi and Tomis Hara.(日本の戦車, 1961)

In this book there are “Ho-Ri mock-up” photo and strange drawings as Wespe.

But new version of  this book (日本の戦車, 1971) says there are two plans of Ho-Ri: Ho-Ri I & II.

According to them, there were two plans:  place engine on front or rear. (They also have37mm)

However, Ho-Ri blueprint made August 15, 1944 says this is Ho-Ri I(ホリI)

So, I guess in the first time there are two plans about place of engines, but they decide put engines on rear. So, I think Ho-Ri I & II in 日本の戦車 should call plan 1 & 2: now I suggesting one is Ho-Ri plan 2 model I.

 

[Tasty95215 2,099]

Mai has posted technical drawings/blueprints that were found in the physical Japanese archives, like this one:

 

 

However, it's hard to verify and/or find more information since it would require physically going to Japan and looking for the files. It doesn't help that she posts here very intermittently.

[aizenns 3,591]

47 minutes ago, Tasty95215 said:

Mai has posted technical drawings/blueprints that were found in the physical Japanese archives, like this one:

 

 

However, it's hard to verify and/or find more information since it would require physically going to Japan and looking for the files. It doesn't help that she posts here very intermittently.

I think these one that without date or other information is not helpful for us.

We need that source. If she show us it’s name and we can go Defense Institute, Japan but she didn’t. This is why she disliked in Japanese WT players community.

Edited June 1, 2018 by aizenns

[Lineins 220]

6 hours ago, Muammar_Gaddaf69 said:

Last I checked, Mai claimed that the Ho-Ri Prototype was built and the 'Production' design was what the IJA was going to go with. Does the sources you've found undeniably prove her wrong? I would want the Ho-Ri II in-game either way.

 

Ho-Ri submitted by Mai is not a fictitious existence at all.
However, it was not a tank what called Ho - Ri Ⅲ, which Mai insists.
It was a kind of minor change in Ho-Ri Ⅰ.
And the mock-ups were also being made.

 

However, as a result of the discussion at the Japan wiki, suspicion has been raised as to whether Mai's material may be processed and produced by himself.

In particular, the suspicion about whether Japan was able to develop a tank engine for more than 1000 horsepower was the biggest.

Mai explained that Ho-Ri's engine was diverted for aircraft.
However, the problem of the production capacity of Japan's liquid-cooled engine at that time was quite severe as you can see Ki-61.
Therefore, the Japanese wiki has judged that Mai's materials are not reliable enough.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Lineins

[Tasty95215 2,099]

12 minutes ago, aizenns said:

I think these one that without date or other information is not helpful for us.

We need that source. If she show us it’s name and we can go Defense Institute, Japan but she didn’t. This is why she disliked in Japanese WT players community.

 

To be honest I do kinda agree with this, and hope that she does eventually show some more file numbers and sources, though currently she has real life stuff to take care of. At the very least, we do know that the Ho-Ri itself was partially built, just not what it looked like.

 

 

Anyways, as far as the Ho-Ri II goes I think that if we're going to be using paper tanks, we should go fully ridiculous:

 

 

Let's add the version of the Ho-Ri II with the 20mm Type 98 on the back! While it's kinda silly and probably would not have worked well in real life at all, it would be pretty fun in War Thunder to take deter planes. Sadly, the penetration is too low to penetrate even the high tier light tanks most of the time.

[_qaz_ 675]

Without getting into the sloped design discussion. Ho-Ri Production in the game is not a real tank, regardless of the engine power, etc. It was a misinterpretation based on the available material (as I understood it, the 120-125mm plate of the production tank, actually the Jagdtiger model, was misunderstood to be the protection of the angled UFP of the sloped design, which was thought to be production's design).

 

It is most likely that the 5 tanks being constructed were of the Jagdtiger-type design. If the tank in production was made to use only 75mm armour, not additional plate for the full 125mm, this is possible with a standard Chi-Ri hull and additional armour.

Edited August 23, 2018 by ARADO_AKBAR

[Tasty95215 2,099]

On 01/06/2018 at 06:43, ARADO_AKBAR said:

Without getting into the sloped design discussion. Ho-Ri Production in the game is not a real tank, regardless of the engine power, etc. It was a misinterpretation based on the available material (as I understood it, the 120-125mm plate of the production tank, actually likely the Jagdtiger model, misunderstood to be the protection of the angled UFP of the sloped design, which was thought to be production's design, and the final design).

 

 It is most likely that the 5 tanks being constructed were of the Jagdtiger-type design. The tank in production was made to use only 75mm armour, not additional plate for the full 125mm, this is possible with a standard Chi-Ri hull and additional armour.

 

Aw, so even the 125mm of armor is incorrect? That's disappointing.

 

Anyways, I have a few questions:

• I'm slightly curious why they went with the Jagdtiger type design with the casemate in the middle as opposed to a rear-mounted casemate. What were the advantages of this design? From what I can tell, the rear-mounted casemate would have less barrel overhang, which would be a good advantage.
• Do you have any more information on the 37mm smoke shells that were mentioned? They sound like they could potentially be used for all of the Japanese tanks with 37mm's, which would be very useful.
• What is the gun depression like? Will it have the same roof-lifting mechanism like the two Ho-Ri already in War Thunder?
• What were the specifications for the ammunition of the 105mm experimental tank gun?
  • Is the performance of the APHE of that gun correct on the Ho-Ri Prototype? Currently it penetrates 204mm of penetration at 10 meters and 160mm of penetration at 1000 meters, with a muzzle velocity of 916 m/s and 200 grams of explosives.
  • The HE shell has 2520 grams of explosives. Is that correct?
  • Is there any more information on the APCR that was tested? I imagine that most people would use the APHE is most circumstances, but a higher-penetrating APCR would be nice to have.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Tasty95215

[super_cacti 1,071]

From what I know, there where 3 prototype designs.

Ho-Ri I

Ho-Ri II

Ho-Ri III (this is the Ho-Ri Prototype we have ingame https://live.warthunder.com/post/736306/en/)

 

And for the Production model they chose the Ho-Ri III design.

But I would love to see all of the Ho-Ri designs ingame.

[aizenns 3,591]

2 hours ago, super_cacti said:

From what I know, there where 3 prototype designs.

Ho-Ri I

Ho-Ri II

Ho-Ri III (this is the Ho-Ri Prototype we have ingame https://live.warthunder.com/post/736306/en/)

 

And for the Production model they chose the Ho-Ri III design.

But I would love to see all of the Ho-Ri designs ingame.

 

 

I think source of "Ho-Ri III" is from http://sensha-manual.blogspot.jp, but its wrong.

 

  I compare to the figure from “JAPANESE TANKS AND ARMORED VEHICLES” (1978 version), and not only this font shapes but also density of ink perfect much to types of “試製砲戦車ホリII型”. Comparing types of Ho-Ri I and Ho-Ri II, but these densities of ink are different, but Why Ho-Ri II and Ho-Ri III’s types are perfect much?  I guess it figure was created from this book’s drawn. If source of in-game model of Ho-Ri is this, it should not be in a game.

 If you think this image is from original blueprint, it's wrong. After WW2, allied army were forced to Japanese that change its language orthography.

If this image created before it, this name should be "試製砲戰車ホリIII型", but in this figure that name is 試製砲戦車ホリIII型. This mean this figure created after WW2.

 

Quote

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

Also, known photo of Ho-Ri with slope armor is "Ho-Ri I" mock-up.

Lots of men miss-understand about Ho-Ri's models: Ho-Ri I means plan that equip engine on center of the hull, and Ho-Ri II means plan that equip engine on rear.

Quote

 

原乙未生・栄森伝治・竹内昭(1978) 『日本の戦車』, 出版協同社,

Hara Tomio, Eimori Denji, Takeuchi Akira (1978) “JAPANESE TANKS AND ARMORED VEHICLES”, Shuppan Kyodo Publishers

ASIN code: B000J8HVO6

 

 

I guess this slope armor & barrel style, and able to open roof ideas are from "Ji-Ro". This project was started 1941, and it have same style. And, in the first time in Ho-Ri's plan it equip only 105mm cannon, but IJA 4th technical research institute (section of develop whole Japanese Tank include Ho-Ri) engineers, and Mitsubishi's book (factory of produce it) says it have not only 105mm but also 37mm.

 

Ho-Ri design history that I guess from these evidences is:

Ho-Ri I with slope armor  (Before August 10, 1943 / Earliest Idea)

                 ↓

Ho-Ri I with 37mm  (Between August 1943 to 1944)

                 ↓

Ho-Ri II with 37mm  (August 15, 1944 / Finally designe)

 

Ji-Ro's blueprints and drawings

Spoiler

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by aizenns
add drawing of Ji-Ro

[aizenns 3,591]

12 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

 

Aw, so even the 125mm of armor is incorrect? That's disappointing.

 

Anyways, I have a few questions:

• I'm slightly curious why they went with the Jagdtiger type design with the casemate in the middle as opposed to a rear-mounted casemate. What were the advantages of this design? From what I can tell, the rear-mounted casemate would have less barrel overhang, which would be a good advantage.
• Do you have any more information on the 37mm smoke shells that were mentioned? They sound like they could potentially be used for all of the Japanese tanks with 37mm's, which would be very useful.
• What is the gun depression like? Will it have the same roof-lifting mechanism like the two Ho-Ri already in War Thunder?
• What were the specifications for the ammunition of the 105mm experimental tank gun?
  • Is the performance of the APHE of that gun correct on the Ho-Ri Prototype? Currently it penetrates 204mm of penetration at 10 meters and 160mm of penetration at 1000 meters, with a muzzle velocity of 916 m/s and 200 grams of explosives.
  • The HE shell has 2520 grams of explosives. Is that correct?
  • Is there any more information on the APCR that was tested? I imagine that most people would use the APHE is most circumstances, but a higher-penetrating APCR would be nice to have.

At least they planed 125mm armor for front, but when they want to build prototype, there are only 75mm. So there are possible that they pile up armors.

 

Answer the questions

1. Did not separate drivers room and main gun room. Perhaps, they try to divert Chi-Ri's chassis and transmissions.
2.  I'm trying to search it, but it is very difficult. I couldn't get it yet.
3. It have a protrusion on the top of turret as Porsche-Tiger prototype.
4. Wikipedia JA says:

• In Conference at June 30, 1943, Colonel Ni'imi and Ota says
  • in velocity 1000m/s, it penetration will be 200mm/500m
  • in velocity 850m/s, it penetration will be 150mm/1000m
• In "現有対戦車兵器資材効力概見表" (Existing Anti-Tank weapons efficacy outline sheet) by Imperial Guards 3rd Division (collection of JGSDF Staff College, War History room), there are very similar weapon, "一〇〇TA(試製十糎対戦車砲)" / Experimental 10cm Anti-Tank Gun (they also call 10.5cm gun to 10cm)
• According to that document, its penetration is 175mm / 1000m (unknown what shell and armor they use)
• I don't hear anything about IJA's APCR. But, its core is steel, so it will not have good penetrations.

[VWGolf4_20v_AGU 132]

+1

[B000B 26]

From a point of view of a person who researched the history of Ho-Ri project, I think one of the Ho-Ri's which was planned to be produced in May 1945 but was cancelled is a prototype model. And the other 4 Ho-Ri's which were planned to be produced in February 1946 are production models. The Japanese army at that time seemed that planned to do test drives to check for issues and the performance of the tank between May 1945 and February 1946.

This leaves the question if the prototype ever existed, the answer is yes. The Ho-Ri was tested with the body of the Type 5 Medium Tank, the Chi-Ri, which was produced in March 1945, after that. I think that the army had only considered the Ho-Ri with the body of a Type 5 Chi-Ri as a prototype so that would explain why it was never produced in May 1945.

So I think the Ho-Ri in game is a good tank but wouldn't exist in history, existed only as a mock-up.

 

There would be no reason for the Ho-Ri to be cancelled because of the damage of bombing to Tokyo by U.S.Military. Because, according to the book “History of the Mitsubishi Heavy Industry”, the damage to the Tokyo Machine factory was minor and didn't have any large effect.

Spoiler

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by B000B

[aizenns 3,591]

 

47 minutes ago, B000B said:

From a point of view of a person who researched the history of Ho-Ri project, I think one of the Ho-Ri's which was planned to be produced in May 1945 but was cancelled is a prototype model. And the other 4 Ho-Ri's which were planned to be produced in February 1946 are production models. The Japanese army at that time seemed that planned to do test drives to check for issues and the performance of the tank between May 1945 and February 1946.

This leaves the question if the prototype ever existed, the answer is yes. The Ho-Ri was tested with the body of the Type 5 Medium Tank, the Chi-Ri, which was produced in March 1945, after that. I think that the army had only considered the Ho-Ri with the body of a Type 5 Chi-Ri as a prototype so that would explain why it was never produced in May 1945.

So I think the Ho-Ri in game is a good tank but wouldn't exist in history, existed only as a mock-up.

 

There would be no reason for the Ho-Ri to be cancelled because of the damage of booming to Tokyo by U.S.Military. Because, according to the book “History of the Mitsubishi Heavy Industry”, the damage to the Tokyo Machine factory was minor and didn't have any large effect.

I agree this.

If Ho-Ri that planned may 1945 is "prototype", it should have 75mm armor?

[Tasty95215 2,099]

After having thought about it a bit more, the IJA's decision to produce a Ho-Ri with flat armor as opposed to the earlier sloped armor mock-up does make some sense if you look at it from a manufacturing point of view. The IJA definitely would have wanted to build the version with sloped armor at first, which would explain the mock-up as the initial plan. However, given the late war conditions of Japan's industry, it would have been easier for them to a new tank that shared more of its chassis with existing tanks (ie the Chi-Ri).

 

Still, this Jagdtiger-type Ho-Ri will have much less armor (especially on the sides!) than the in-game Ho-Ri prototype. Even considering the fact that this version may have 125mm armor thickness over the Ho-Ri prototype's 75mm, the prototype's sloping more than makes up for it. By the way, where did the armor value 25mm on the sides come from? It seems strange that the designers would reduce the armor thickness down from the 35mm's on the Chi-Ri, unless they were trying to save weight.

 

In any case, the advantages that the this Ho-Ri has over the BR 6.0 Ho-Ri prototype, are the 37mm gun, the 7.7mm machine gun, the 20mm Type 98 AA gun, and the lower weight. The 37mm gun will be fairly useless though unless it gets the smoke shells, and the machine gun won't see much use either since its in the hull. The 20mm Type 98 and the lower weight would be nice to have though. Still, I'm not sure that those advantages make up for the lack of armor that the Jagdtiger Ho-Ri has over the Ho-Ri prototype, and in my opinion this Ho-Ri should have a lower BR than the Ho-Ri prototype. I think 5.7 sounds good, though I'm not sure about the specifics and how it would match up against similarly ranked tanks.

 

One last thing:

On 03/06/2018 at 07:52, aizenns said:

It have a protrusion on the top of turret as Porsche-Tiger prototype.

I meant to ask earlier, but what do you mean by this? I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

[B000B 26]

22 hours ago, aizenns said:

I agree this.

If Ho-Ri that planned may 1945 is "prototype", it should have 75mm armor?

Thank you.

Considering progress of research about armor at that time, I think so.

[igeticsu 3,400]

I want this! +1

[ImStuckStepBro_ 42]

I'm not sure you can trust MaiWaffentrager's sources since she was shown to have forged evidence for the Ho-Ri. 

 

[aizenns 3,591]

10 minutes ago, LegioXFulminata said:

I'm not sure you can trust MaiWaffentrager's sources since she was shown to have forged evidence for the Ho-Ri. 

I'm not native English user, so if I miss understand your comment, I apologize.

 

So if you think this Ho-Ri's source is from her, its wrong. She give me message and she said production model is very incorrect, and it added for game balance.

This is why I say "Mai_waffentrager give me information about Ho-Ri Production in War Thunder."

 

Edit: she gives me message because I discuss about Ho-Ri in Japanese community, and I send bugreport

Spoiler

On 30/04/2018 at 20:17, aizenns said:

 In that devblog comment form, administrator Borisych says: “We are grateful to Eun Ae Sun for helping us to dig information about this SPG, read more details about the Ho-Ri on her page”.

 In that blog there are drawn of <Ho-Ri III>, but it seems strange.

  I compare to the figure from “JAPANESE TANKS AND ARMORD VEHICLES” (1978 version), and not only this font shapes but also density of ink perfect much to types of “試製砲戦車ホリII型”. Comparing types of Ho-Ri I and Ho-Ri II, but these densities of ink are different, but Why Ho-Ri II and Ho-Ri III’s types are perfect much?  I guess it figure on Mai’s blog was created from this book’s drawn. If source of in-game model of Ho-Ri is this, it should not be in a game.

Quote

please look at these indicated area in original size images.

Quote

Original size images

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by aizenns

[B000B 26]

On 06/06/2018 at 04:46, Tasty95215 said:

By the way, where did the armor value 25mm on the sides come from? It seems strange that the designers would reduce the armor thickness down from the 35mm's on the Chi-Ri, unless they were trying to save weight.

It’s from here? Im searching...

 

On 01/06/2018 at 03:11, aizenns said:

藤田昌雄(2013) 「和製ヤークトティーガー 重砲戦車「ホリⅡ型」」, 『丸』2013年5月号, 潮書房光人社

Fujita Masao (2013) “Japanese Jagdtiger, Heavy gun tank “Ho-Ri II””, “Maru” March 2013, Ushio-shobo Kojinsha

ASIN code: B00BSDQ110

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by B000B

[HMSD33Dauntless 1,257]

I would like to see this in game, perhaps to replace the Ho-Ri Production since it's incorrect in game. Preferably, the current Ho-Ri Production would be changed to this with its BR updated, meaning its current model wouldn't even remain in-game as a hidden vehicle, it would just be changed. With that being said, its BR would have to be lower, since the frontal armor is only 75mm and it's mostly flat I would have to say it should be around 6.0 or 6.3 since it's a lot less armored than the Ho-Ri Prototype but at least has the additional AA guns on the back.