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P-47D-15 and P-47D-22: High-Performance Razorbacks


Milocat
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Razorback P-47Ds  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want these aircraft in the game?

    • Yes! Gib!
      108
    • No thanks.
      9
  2. 2. Which versions do you want?

    • Just the D-15.
      6
    • Just the D-22
      4
    • Both!
      98
    • I said no.
      9


Hello, everyone!  I'd like to suggest two more related aircraft from the old U.S. release tree for introduction into the game, the P-47D-15 and P-47D-22, some of the last models of P-47s built before the bubble canopies were added. 

 

The P-47C models were the first used in combat, and the razorback design persisted into the P-47D models.  The bubble canopy was not fitted until the P-47D-25 production block that we already have in the game.  The P-47D-15 and P-47D-22 are the two razorback models of P-47D that I think would best fill this gap. 

 

The P-47D-22 was the first model of P-47D to be fitted with the larger 13-foot propeller found on the P-47D-25 (either a Hamilton Standard Hydromatic 24E50-65 or a Curtiss Electric C542S); it was also fitted with the "universal" wing introduced on the P-47D-20 model.  In-game, this would all translate to a P-47 that is, except for the razorback canopy, identical to the existing P-47D-25 in terms of flight performance and payload options. 

 

The P-47D-15 would be a slightly weaker version; while it has the same engine as the D-22, it lacks the larger propeller.  It also lacks the universal wing, which prevents it from carrying drop tanks (not relevant in the game).  Underwing pylons were installed that allowed this version to carry either three 500lb bombs or two 1000lb bombs. 

 

Both variants are armed with the standard eight Browning M2 .50 caliber machine guns with 3,400 rounds and are equipped with the Pratt and Whitney R-2800-63 Double Wasp engine (~2,100 horsepower, includes water injection). 

 

Thanks for reading!  Let's hope for some good razorback P-47s!

 

Specifications: 

 

P-47D-15

Engines:  One Pratt and Whitney R-2800-59 Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial, 2,300 hp

Length: 11.03m

Wingspan:  12.43m

Height:  4.44m

Loaded Weight:  6,570 kg (14,881 lbs)

Maximum Speed:  690 kmh (429 mph)

Crew:  1

Armament:  Eight 12.7mm M2 Browning machine guns, 3400 rounds, 3 x 500lb bombs or 2 x 1,000lb bombs (up to 907 kg of bombs), provisions for ten 127mm rockets

 

P-47D-22

Engines:  One Pratt and Whitney R-2800-59 Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial, 2,300 hp

Length: 11m

Wingspan:  12.42m

Height:  4.47m

Loaded Weight:  7,938 kg (17,500 lbs)

Maximum Speed:  713 kmh (443 mph)

Crew:  1

Armament:  Eight 12.7mm M2 Browning machine guns, 3400 rounds, up to 1,134 kg of bombs, provisions for ten 127mm rockets

 

Images: 

Spoiler

P-47D-15

130294809f90146e30b13a71a146eb94.jpg

P-47D-15_42-23289_Lady_Ruth_19th_Fighter

(The Lady Ruth would make a good skin.)

 

P-47D-22

Kansas_Tornado_II.jpg

Republic_P-47D_Thunderbolt_P-47D-22-REpo

3_8_b1.jpg

(Would also make for a good skin.)

 

Sources: 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_4.html

(Joe Baugher's sources:)

-American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.

-The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

-War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday 1964.

-United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.

-The Republic P-47D Thunderbolt, Aircraft in Profile, Edward Shacklady, Doubleday, 1969.

-Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Volume I, William Green, 1967.

-Thunderbolt!, Robert S. Johnson and Martin Caidin, Ballantine Books, 1958.

-Thunderbolt: A Documentary History of the Republic P-47, Roger Freeman, Motorbooks, 1992.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_P-47_Thunderbolt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-2800_Double_Wasp

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/1-USA/02-Fighter-Bombers/P-47(Thunderbolt)/P-47D-15(Thunderbolt).htm

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/01-Fighters/Republic-P-47Thunderbolt/P-47D-22-RE.htm

http://www.368thfightergroup.com/P-47-2.html

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-47D.html

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47.html

Edited by Milocat
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  • Senior Suggestion Moderator

Open for discussion. :salute:

 

But please also add the specifications for these planes.

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8 hours ago, leroyonly said:

Open for discussion. :salute:

 

But please also add the specifications for these planes.

 

Fixed.  Thanks for opening.

 

11 minutes ago, MandolinMagi said:

I really can't support a suggestion whose only sources are Wiki and some dude's site.

 

Don't get me wrong, Joe Baugher's site is great. Its also old, hasn't updated in forever, and is citing some equally old secondary works.

 

I'm up for more sources if you have any.  It's not as if these are especially obscure planes.

Edited by Milocat
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I feel we already have enough P-47s, we have 5 P-47 variants(A, D-25/D-28, N and M) in the game, I don't feel we need more!

Edited by nelsondx
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The German captured P-47D Thunderbolt is supposed to be an early razorback model and has the wrong cockpit ingame (bubble canopy) +1

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Guest

I always wonder why there was no P-47b,c razorbacks in game.:fighter:

Edited by Guest

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I’d like to see more P-47s in game, regardless of minor differences between them.

 

It is funny to me that some people really think that are too many Thunderbolts, look at the Me109s, Fw190s, Spitfires, Yakovlev line, Lavochkin line, A6M series, etc... 

 

But in any case, the Razorbacks were present even still in 1945, so it’s not like the plane wasn’t used all that much...

 

+1

:good:

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Guest

No razerbacks in game no early models of the P47b,c.:curious:

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11 hours ago, CptPejelagarto said:

I’d like to see more P-47s in game, regardless of minor differences between them.

 

It is funny to me that some people really think that are too many Thunderbolts, look at the Me109s, Fw190s, Spitfires, Yakovlev line, Lavochkin line, A6M series, etc... 

 

But in any case, the Razorbacks were present even still in 1945, so it’s not like the plane wasn’t used all that much...

 

+1

:good:

 

I think a lot of people still remember the years of undertiered P-47 spam with dread.  It's still something of a problem, but less of one.

 

16 hours ago, nelsondx said:

I feel we already have enough P-47s, we have 5 P-47 variants(A, D-25/D-28, N and M) in the game, I don't feel we need more!

 

Since when do we have the P-47A in the game?  I'm pretty sure that model didn't exist. 

 

We did have the P-51A as an event plane a while ago . . .

Edited by Milocat
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1 hour ago, Milocat said:

 

I think a lot of people still remember the years of undertiered P-47 spam with dread.  It's still something of a problem, but less of one.

 

 

Since when do we have the P-47A in the game?  I'm pretty sure that model didn't exist. 

 

We did have the P-51A as an event plane a while ago . . .

And the P-47 wasn't developed from the P-43? I meant P-43A not P-47, my bad.

 

12 hours ago, CptPejelagarto said:

I’d like to see more P-47s in game, regardless of minor differences between them.

 

It is funny to me that some people really think that are too many Thunderbolts, look at the Me109s, Fw190s, Spitfires, Yakovlev line, Lavochkin line, A6M series, etc... 

 

But in any case, the Razorbacks were present even still in 1945, so it’s not like the plane wasn’t used all that much...

 

+1

:good:

Alright.

Tell me, what was the backnone of the Germans and British fighters?  The Americans had P-40s, P-47s, P-38s, P-36s, P-51s, P-63, P-39, F6F, F4F, F4Us, F2As, F8F, etc etc. They had more different models are their disposal than their counterparts. 

Look at the German lineup, what was the backbone of the Luftwaffe? The BF109, the FW190(TA-152 included since they developed from 190s) and the ME-262, they only had 3 SINGLE SEAT fighter models during the war. Ok 4 if you want to add the HE-112. I wouldn't count the HE-100 because it was never used in combat and they only used it for propaganda purposes.

 

British Lineup, what was their backbone? Spitfires, Hurricanes and Typhoons to some extent(bare in mind the Tempests are improved variants of the Typhoons). And the Seafires, Sea Hurricane are just navalized Spitfires and Hurricanes, aren't they? And the Sea Fury is a what? A navalized Tempest. 

 

Yak Line, okay, we have  Yak-1s,  Yak-3s, Yak-7 and Yak-9s. So we have 4 different Yak models in the game. Bare in mind, each Yak is developed from eachother, the Yak-3 and 9 are developed from the Yak-1. We  have LA-7s,  LA-5s and  LaGG-3s. LA-5 is an improved LaGG and the LA-7 is an improved LA-5, so one can consider them...improved variants instead of new models? Even so, the Americans had more different models at their disposal anyway, 3 more if you want to count it.

We also have the I-16s and MiG-3s, the I-16 was used heavily by the Soviet Air Force during the early stages of Operation Barbarossa.

 

A6M series, again, what was the backbone of the Imperial Navy? The A6M for a long time, even when the Zero was obsolete, they still produced it, they only started the produce the N1K at the end of the war. And the J2M was used since late 1942 or early 1943. So we have 3 different fighter models for the Imperial Navy(4 if you want to consider the J7W which was supposed to be powered by a jet engine.) The Imperial Army had Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-61, Ki-100(Which is a Ki-61 with a radial engine) and Ki-84.

 

So if you want to add 3 variants of each plane in the game, the lineups would be cut short because they didn't have the same number of different fighter models as the US did, no wonder the other lineups are larger, if you added 3 variants, the lineups would be a little on the short, don't you agree?

So what's the need for more D variants of the P-47? What's so needed about it? Unless you want to add a P-47B or C variant in 3.0 BR or 3.7, I don't see the need to add more D or later variants in the game, why not add the early variants? Since the later ones are already at a decent BR, I don't see how adding the later razorback models would improve the balance. If this was a suggestion to add earlier P-47 variants, I'd probably support it, but I really do not see the need to add more D+ variants in the game since we already have 4 of them.

 

Edited by nelsondx
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Guest

I like to see these USA planes in game why they not made them.Be great to add these planes to the USA tree.:flight:

P-47b,c

P-40c

B-24J

B-26

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Just now, Whiteboy66 said:

I like to see these USA planes in game why they not made them.Be great to add these planes to the USA tree.:flight:

P-47b,c

P-40c

B-24J

B-26

Yeah, those planes seem nice to add, honestly, specially the Widowmaker. Early P-47 variants are fine but I really don't see the need for more D+ variants in the game. Just looks to me a case of "its cool lets add", can't see how it would balance it out since there's enough P-47s at later BRs. 

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@Milocat, you really got me drooling on the prospect of seeing the P-47D-15 & '-22' in War Thunder's U.S. tech tree. I happen to own a pair of those 'Razorbacks' in my scale-model kit collection: 'The Bug' P-47D-20-RE...Ser. No. 42-76653...Pilot: Captain Arle Blood, 450th F.G., 510th F.S. 9th A.F.

                 'Okie' P-47D-6-RE...Ser. No. 42-74753...Pilot: 1st Lt. Quince Brown, 78th F.G., 84th F.S., 8th A.F., Duxford, England April 1944.

                 (Note: I know that these aren't 'D-15' or 'D-22' models, but...they're both 'Razorbacks'!!!)

Also, another famous fighter variant I would like to see is the F4U-1 Corsair...with the 'birdcage' canopy. This plane was the 1st 'Corsair' variant to show up in the skies over the Solomon Islands in early-to-mid-1943, & was operated by 'Marine Fighting 124 (VMF-124)' 1st Lt. Kenneth Walsh, a member of that squadron from Brooklyn, N.Y., became the 1st Corsair Ace while flying that plane. He won numerous awards, including the Congressional Medal Of Honor, while knocking down 21 Japanese planes during his WW2 combat service.

 

I know many players coming here have ideas of what should be implemented in the game...& I'm no exception to the rule. So...Best of luck with your 'Razorback' requests...We're behind you all the way!!!

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1 hour ago, Warbirdpeter said:

@Milocat, you really got me drooling on the prospect of seeing the P-47D-15 & '-22' in War Thunder's U.S. tech tree. I happen to own a pair of those 'Razorbacks' in my scale-model kit collection: 'The Bug' P-47D-20-RE...Ser. No. 42-76653...Pilot: Captain Arle Blood, 450th F.G., 510th F.S. 9th A.F.

                 'Okie' P-47D-6-RE...Ser. No. 42-74753...Pilot: 1st Lt. Quince Brown, 78th F.G., 84th F.S., 8th A.F., Duxford, England April 1944.

                 (Note: I know that these aren't 'D-15' or 'D-22' models, but...they're both 'Razorbacks'!!!)

Also, another famous fighter variant I would like to see is the F4U-1 Corsair...with the 'birdcage' canopy. This plane was the 1st 'Corsair' variant to show up in the skies over the Solomon Islands in early-to-mid-1943, & was operated by 'Marine Fighting 124 (VMF-124)' 1st Lt. Kenneth Walsh, a member of that squadron from Brooklyn, N.Y., became the 1st Corsair Ace while flying that plane. He won numerous awards, including the Congressional Medal Of Honor, while knocking down 21 Japanese planes during his WW2 combat service.

 

I know many players coming here have ideas of what should be implemented in the game...& I'm no exception to the rule. So...Best of luck with your 'Razorback' requests...We're behind you all the way!!!

 

Thanks for your support!  Those sound like awesome models. 

 

That corsair sounds like an awesome plane to add too.  If there's a suggestion for it I'll definitely support it!

 

2 hours ago, nelsondx said:

Yeah, those planes seem nice to add, honestly, specially the Widowmaker. Early P-47 variants are fine but I really don't see the need for more D+ variants in the game. Just looks to me a case of "its cool lets add", can't see how it would balance it out since there's enough P-47s at later BRs. 

 

I feel the need to point out that these are earlier P-47 variants than the D models we already have.  And the only options for earlier P-47s are the P-47B and P-47C (and of those, only the C was ever used in combat). 

 

Also, just to address the complaints that we have too many P-47s, I'll supply this quote from one of my sources:  "The P-47 was built in larger numbers than any other American fighter, 15,683 examples rolling off the assembly line before production finally ended."

 

I've also added some additional sources to my list. 

Edited by Milocat
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1 hour ago, Milocat said:

I feel the need to point out that these are earlier P-47 variants than the D models we already have.  And the only options for earlier P-47s are the P-47B and P-47C (and of those, only the C was ever used in combat). 

 

Also, just to address the complaints that we have too many P-47s, I'll supply this quote from one of my sources:  "The P-47 was built in larger numbers than any other American fighter, 15,683 examples rolling off the assembly line before production finally ended."

 

I've also added some additional sources to my list. 

So why not add the C variants? You're suggesting the D-15 and D-22, we have 2 D variants in the game, why not C variants? They are still razorbacks, why more D variants? Again, how would it balance things out? Why the D and not the C? C is still a razorback.

 

1 hour ago, Milocat said:

"The P-47 was built in larger numbers than any other American fighter, 15,683 examples rolling off the assembly line before production finally ended."

And? Given your logic, shall we add more variants of the MiG-15? Since More than 17.000 were produced, why not more 109 variants? 30.000+ produced.

Edited by nelsondx
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15 minutes ago, nelsondx said:

So why not add the C variants? You're suggesting the D-15 and D-22, we have 2 D variants in the game, why not C variants? They are still razorbacks, why more D variants? Again, how would it balance things out? Why the D and not the C? C is still a razorback.

 

And? Given your logic, shall we add more variants of the MiG-15? Since More than 17.000 were produced, why not more 109 variants? 30.000+ produced.

 

There's really only one variant of the P-47C, the P-47C-2, that is suitable to add to the game.  It's already been suggested.  These D variants were some of the most commonly-used razorbacks in the war historically.  It's not a matter of balancing things out, it's a matter of adding important historical aircraft without breaking anything (which these planes won't). 

 

I would not be opposed to the addition of more variants of the MiG-15 or Bf-109, either.  In fact, I have supported multiple suggestions for additional 109 variants.  It's one of my favorite aircraft.  I don't know where you get this idea that I wouldn't want more variants of those planes too.  :dntknw:

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45 minutes ago, Milocat said:

 

There's really only one variant of the P-47C, the P-47C-2, that is suitable to add to the game.  It's already been suggested.  These D variants were some of the most commonly-used razorbacks in the war historically.  It's not a matter of balancing things out, it's a matter of adding important historical aircraft without breaking anything (which these planes won't). 

 

I would not be opposed to the addition of more variants of the MiG-15 or Bf-109, either.  In fact, I have supported multiple suggestions for additional 109 variants.  It's one of my favorite aircraft.  I don't know where you get this idea that I wouldn't want more variants of those planes too.  :dntknw:

So why not add a single P-47C? Or why not C-1 and C-2? They did use razorbacks, yes, the first Jug to have a bubble canopy was the D-25, but we already have 2 D versions in the game, why add another? Why not older razorbacks like the P-47C-2? Or C-1? Or C-5 even? Why it has to be the D variant in particular? You need to think of the balance as well, not because it looks cool in the tech tree, we already have top tier P-47s, why add more? Why not older variants to fit in the mid tier? 

 

Adding planes because they flew is not the only reason you need, yes it helps, but you need to think of the balancing aspect of it, what BR would you suggest? How do you know it won't unbalance things? P-47D-25 is at 4.3, D-28 at 4.7, P-47N at 5.0 and P-47M at 5.7. Surely a C-2 can fit in 4.0.

I'm fine with more P-47s, I just don't see the need for D variants other than "its nice to have razorbacks". Why not the C-2?  Flew in the war(First P-47 to do so) plus I'm sure it can fit in mid tier, needless to say it was a razorback, surely it can fit in 4.0 BR. 

 

Edited by nelsondx
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23 minutes ago, nelsondx said:

So it's not a matter of balancing things out, why adding it then? Just because it flew in the war? 

So why not add a single P-47C? Or why not C-1 and C-2? They did use razorbacks, yes, the first Jug to have a bubble canopy was the D-25, but we already have 2 D versions in the game, why add another? Why not older razorbacks like the P-47C-2? Or C-1? Or both? Why it has to be the D variant in particular? You need to think of the balance as well, not because it looks cool in the tech tree, we already have top tier P-47s, why add more? Why not older variants to fit in the mid tier?

 

Adding planes because they flew is not the only reason you need, yes it helps, but you need to think of the balancing aspect of it. I'm fine with more P-47s, I just don't see the need for D variants other than "its nice to have razorbacks". Why not the C-2?  Flew in the war(First P-47 to do so) plus I'm sure it can fit in mid tier, needless to say it was a razorback.

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear about how I feel about earlier P-47 models. 

 

I support adding the P-47C-2.  In addition to getting the already-suggested P-47C-2, I would like to see these planes in the game.  So I suggested them.

 

"Just because it flew in the war?"  Really?  And here I thought most people wanted aircraft with distinguished combat histories over prototype planes.  Thousands of razorback and bubbletop D's fought in the war.  We have one of those types represented in the game, why not the other?

 

I fail to see why adding two D model razorbacks will destroy game balance.  The only mode where you're allowed to take out more than one plane at a time is AB anyway, and these planes will, if anything, have worse performance than the current D-models. 

 

I also don't see how the fact that there are later models of the P-47 (I assume you mean the P-47N) in the tech tree is an argument.  Does the fact that we had the Bf-109K-4 mean that Gaijin shouldn't have added the Bf-109E-4?  Did adding a third Bf-109E when we already had two destroy balance?  No, it added another historically important model of an important aircraft to the game, and a very fun one at that. 

 

You keep asking why, why, why.  I hope that helps clear things up.

Edited by Milocat
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23 minutes ago, Milocat said:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear about how I feel about earlier P-47 models. 

 

I support adding the P-47C-2.  In addition to getting the already-suggested P-47C-2, I would like to see these planes in the game.  So I suggested them.

 

"Just because it flew in the war?"  Really?  And here I thought most people wanted aircraft with distinguished combat histories over prototype planes.  Thousands of razorback and bubbletop D's fought in the war.  We have one of those types represented in the game, why not the other?

 

I fail to see why adding two D model razorbacks will destroy game balance.  The only mode where you're allowed to take out more than one plane at a time is AB anyway, and these planes will, if anything, have worse performance than the current D-models. 

 

I also don't see how the fact that there are later models of the P-47 (I assume you mean the P-47N) in the tech tree is an argument.  Does the fact that we had the Bf-109K-4 mean that Gaijin shouldn't have added the Bf-109E-4?  Did adding a third Bf-109E when we already had two destroy balance?  No, it added another historically important model of an important aircraft to the game, and a very fun one at that. 

 

You keep asking why, why, why.  I hope that helps clear things up.

So lets add the P-47C-2 instead!

"And here I thought most people wanted aircraft with distinguished combat histories over prototype planes.  Thousands of razorback and bubbletop D's fought in the war.  We have one of those types represented in the game, why not the other?"

Why adding D variants when we already have them? Yes thousands of razorbacks fought in the war, so what? It's historical, ok, it is, granted, but then what? Is that it? The C variant didn't fight in the war? Only the D ones did? Ds were the most numerical, yes, but we already have them in the game, just not razorbacks, and I don't think adding another P-47 at 4.0+BR is needed, we already have 4 of them.

 

"I fail to see why adding two D model razorbacks will destroy game balance.  The only mode where you're allowed to take out more than one plane at a time is AB anyway, and these planes will, if anything, have worse performance than the current D-models. " 

Yea, but more players can take more than a single P-47 in Air RB. So if they are worse performing, why not add C-2? I mean, it's already worse performing, plus to me it would make more sense to see an older variant in the game.

Again, which BR would you suggest, how wouldn't it unbalance it out? We have P-47s at 4.3, 4.7, 5.0 and 5.7, the D-15 would go to 4.0 or something? The C-2 can fight at that BR and is not as high performing, to me makes more sense than another D variant. 

 

"I also don't see how the fact that there are later models of the P-47 (I assume you mean the P-47N) in the tech tree is an argument.  Does the fact that we had the Bf-109K-4 mean that Gaijin shouldn't have added the Bf-109E-4?  Did adding a third Bf-109E when we already had two destroy balance?  No, it added another historically important model of an important aircraft to the game, and a very fun one at that. "

Right, as I said before, the Germans had 3 main fighters(single seat) during the war, ME-262, 109 and 190(4 if u want to add the He-112), the US had more than triple that amount, right? If they added just 3 variants or 4 of the 109, the tech tree would be a little on the empty side, plus there's differences between 109Es. Needless to say A LOT more variants of the 109s were produced than P-47s.

 

I simply do not see the need of another D variant, if you want to add another P-47, add the C-2, makes more sense to me plus it's not as high performing, can fit nicely in 4.0 IMO.

 

Edited by nelsondx
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1 hour ago, nelsondx said:

So lets add the P-47C-2 instead!

"And here I thought most people wanted aircraft with distinguished combat histories over prototype planes.  Thousands of razorback and bubbletop D's fought in the war.  We have one of those types represented in the game, why not the other?" Why adding D variants when we already have them? Yes thousands of razorbacks fought in the war, so what? It's historical, ok, it is, granted, but then what? Is that it? The C variant didn't fight in the war? Only the D ones did? Ds were the most numerical, yes, but we already have them in the game, just not razorbacks, and I don't think adding another P-47 at 4.0+BR is needed, we already have 4 of them.

 

"I fail to see why adding two D model razorbacks will destroy game balance.  The only mode where you're allowed to take out more than one plane at a time is AB anyway, and these planes will, if anything, have worse performance than the current D-models. "  Yea, but more players can take more than a single P-47 in Air RB. So if they are worse performing, why not add C-2? I mean, it's already worse performing, plus to me it would make more sense to see an older variant in the game.

Again, which BR would you suggest, how wouldn't it unbalance it out? We have P-47s at 4.3, 4.7, 5.0 and 5.7, the D-15 would go to 4.0 or something? The C-2 can fight at that BR and is not as high performing, to me makes more sense than another D variant. 

 

"I also don't see how the fact that there are later models of the P-47 (I assume you mean the P-47N) in the tech tree is an argument.  Does the fact that we had the Bf-109K-4 mean that Gaijin shouldn't have added the Bf-109E-4?  Did adding a third Bf-109E when we already had two destroy balance?  No, it added another historically important model of an important aircraft to the game, and a very fun one at that. "

Right, as I said before, the Germans had 3 main fighters(single seat) during the war, ME-262, 109 and 190(4 if u want to add the He-112), the US had more than triple that amount, right? If they added just 3 variants or 4 of the 109, the tech tree would be a little on the empty side, plus there's differences between 109Es. Needless to say A LOT more variants of the 109s were produced than P-47s.

 

I simply do not see the need of another D variant, if you want to add another P-47, add the C-2, makes more sense to me plus it's not as high performing, can fit nicely in 4.0 IMO.

 

 

To answer two questions you raised: 

 

Why ask for the D razorbacks as well as the C-2?  Because the D razorbacks could be as good as the bubbletop D's (in the case of the D-22 vs. the D-25), or only SLIGHTLY worse (in the case of the D-15, which will only differ in performance from the D-22 as much as the D-25 differs from the D-28, as in each case the difference between the two planes is a better prop).  The C-2 will be noticeably worse than the bubbletop D's.  I want it, but I also want these variants to show that not all razorbacks were substantially worse than the bubbletops. 

 

As for what BR to place them at?  The D-22 should be the same BR as the D-25 in AB and RB, since the only difference is the canopy.  In SB the D-22 would probably be tiered lower because it has poorer visibility.  The D-15 should be at either the same BR as the D-22 and D-25 or 0.3 lower. 

 

I don't think your "types of aircraft" comparison is completely fair, and I'll explain why. 

 

"The Americans had P-40s, P-47s, P-38s, P-36s, P-51s, P-63, P-39, F6F, F4F, F4Us, F2As, F8F, etc etc." 

 

1.  Both the P-36 and F2A were phased out of active service with the U.S. VERY quickly.  If we aren't going to count the He 112 for Germany (which I don't think we should, since it was barely used and quickly made obsolete), we shouldn't count those two either.  I'll also be nice and not count the I-16s for the Soviet Union, as they were quickly replaced. 

2.  You count the LaGG and La series as one type of plane, and all the Yaks as one type of plane, and the Typhoon and Tempest as one type of plane, due to the later designs being developments of the previous ones.  Fair enough.  In that case, you should also count the P-39 and P-63 together, and ditto the F4F and F6F, as the same logic applies.  You could even count the P-40 and P-51 together with that argument, but I'll be nice and not do that. 

4.  I'm not sure I would count the P-39/P-63 anyway.  They were barely used in combat by the U.S. (with the Soviet Union is another story entirely).  I have no idea why Gaijin gave us so many variants of these planes instead of more commonly-used types. 

3.  The F8F did not see combat in the war.  I won't count it or the Me 262, as the 262 was a very rare late-war development.  For the same reason, I won't count the J7M, or the Sea Fury.

4.  In fact, let's split up the USAAF and USN plane lines, shall we?  After all, you did that with Japan.  That gives us: 

 

U.S. (army):  P-40s, P-38s, P-47s, P-51s.

U.S. (navy):  F4F/F6Fs, F4Us.

Germany:  Bf 109s, Fw 190s/Ta 152s. 

Britain:  Hurricanes, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests.

Soviet Union:  Yak-1/7/9/3s, LaGG-3/La-5/7s, MiG-3s.

Japan (army):  Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-61/100s, Ki-84s.

Japan (navy):  A6Ms, J2Ms, N1Ks.

 

Which leads us to tally up the total number of variants of these listed planes for each country, counting rare premium/event variants (but not ace planes or captured planes that aren't new variants): 

 

U.S. (army):  19 (Three P-40s, five P-38s, four P-47s, seven P-51s).

U.S. (navy):  10 (Four F4Fs/F6Fs, six F4Us).

U.S. (total):  29

Germany:  27 (Fifteen 109s, twelve 190s/152s). 

Britain (army):  26 (Three hurricanes, seventeen Spitfires, six Typhoons/Tempests).

Britain (navy):  3 (Two Sea Hurricanes, one Seafire, not counting the postwar Seafire FR.47).

Britain (total):  29

Soviet Union:  28 (Twelve Yaks, not counting the postwar Yak-9P, thirteen La-series aircraft, three MiGs). 

Japan (army):  16 (Three Ki-43s, Three Ki-44s, seven Ki-61/100s, three Ki-84s).

Japan (navy):  18 (Nine A6Ms, five J2Ms, four N1Ks). 

Japan (total):  34

 

As you can see, the U.S. does not have a massive glut of common aircraft variants in comparison to other nations'.

 

I'll just close this out by pointing out that adding the P-47C-2, D-15, and D-22 would still leave it with less than half the number of 109 variants.

Edited by Milocat
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6 hours ago, nelsondx said:

And the P-47 wasn't developed from the P-43? I meant P-43A not P-47, my bad.

 

Alright.

Tell me, what was the backnone of the Germans and British fighters?  The Americans had P-40s, P-47s, P-38s, P-36s, P-51s, P-63, P-39, F6F, F4F, F4Us, F2As, F8F, etc etc. They had more different models are their disposal than their counterparts. 

Look at the German lineup, what was the backbone of the Luftwaffe? The BF109, the FW190(TA-152 included since they developed from 190s) and the ME-262, they only had 3 SINGLE SEAT fighter models during the war. Ok 4 if you want to add the HE-112. I wouldn't count the HE-100 because it was never used in combat and they only used it for propaganda purposes.

 

British Lineup, what was their backbone? Spitfires, Hurricanes and Typhoons to some extent(bare in mind the Tempests are improved variants of the Typhoons). And the Seafires, Sea Hurricane are just navalized Spitfires and Hurricanes, aren't they? And the Sea Fury is a what? A navalized Tempest. 

 

Yak Line, okay, we have  Yak-1s,  Yak-3s, Yak-7 and Yak-9s. So we have 4 different Yak models in the game. Bare in mind, each Yak is developed from eachother, the Yak-3 and 9 are developed from the Yak-1. We  have LA-7s,  LA-5s and  LaGG-3s. LA-5 is an improved LaGG and the LA-7 is an improved LA-5, so one can consider them...improved variants instead of new models? Even so, the Americans had more different models at their disposal anyway, 3 more if you want to count it.

We also have the I-16s and MiG-3s, the I-16 was used heavily by the Soviet Air Force during the early stages of Operation Barbarossa.

 

A6M series, again, what was the backbone of the Imperial Navy? The A6M for a long time, even when the Zero was obsolete, they still produced it, they only started the produce the N1K at the end of the war. And the J2M was used since late 1942 or early 1943. So we have 3 different fighter models for the Imperial Navy(4 if you want to consider the J7W which was supposed to be powered by a jet engine.) The Imperial Army had Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-61, Ki-100(Which is a Ki-61 with a radial engine) and Ki-84.

 

So if you want to add 3 variants of each plane in the game, the lineups would be cut short because they didn't have the same number of different fighter models as the US did, no wonder the other lineups are larger, if you added 3 variants, the lineups would be a little on the short, don't you agree?

So what's the need for more D variants of the P-47? What's so needed about it? Unless you want to add a P-47B or C variant in 3.0 BR or 3.7, I don't see the need to add more D or later variants in the game, why not add the early variants? Since the later ones are already at a decent BR, I don't see how adding the later razorback models would improve the balance. If this was a suggestion to add earlier P-47 variants, I'd probably support it, but I really do not see the need to add more D+ variants in the game since we already have 4 of them.

 

 

It is a decent point but not really valid for this situation, we don’t “need” half of the variants of each aircraft we both have mentioned, in the contrary it is a pleasure to be able to choose whichever you like more, right?

This applies not only in the case of “this was the backbone of”, but with every vehicle in the game (that includes P-47s :p:

 

The only BR bracket that needs balancing really is 7.7 and up. 

 

One of the big features of War Thunder is that the game has a crap ton of variants of the same vehicle, no other game can offer that level of variety (that includes planes, tanks and soon ships). 

 

Besides, I guess we can all agree that we don’t “need” more P-47s, but we want more of them anyway, the same as we want any other aircraft, from any other nation. 

I am not a Thunderbolt biased guy, in what regards to gameplay I hated the airspawn because it was unfair and because of it I haven’t touched the P-47N (a plane that I like), I grew up visiting a museum that has a silver P-47D (not a Razorback) so I developed an attachment for the plane, you see it’s not about “how hard can I club with this” it’s about “I’m glad to see another piece of history being added”

It’s a nice feeling and it’s triggered by any vehicle of the era. 

 

If you don’t like the plane because “it would be OP” or “It’s too similar to the other P-47s” fine, that’s your opinion, but that doesn’t mean that the people who want them shouldn’t get them right?

 

And btw, the B and C models are a “Must have” too!

:D

 

Ps. Imo The P-47B should be a collectable in the same way as the P-40C.

Edited by CptPejelagarto

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44 minutes ago, Milocat said:

 

To answer two questions you raised: 

 

Why ask for the D razorbacks as well as the C-2?  Because the D razorbacks could be as good as the bubbletop D's (in the case of the D-22 vs. the D-25), or only SLIGHTLY worse (in the case of the D-15, which will only differ in performance from the D-22 as much as the D-25 differs from the D-28, as in each case the difference between the two planes is a better prop).  The C-2 will be noticeably worse than the bubbletop D's.  I want it, but I also want these variants to show that not all razorbacks were substantially worse than the bubbletops. 

 

As for what BR to place them at?  The D-22 should be the same BR as the D-25 in AB and RB, since the only difference is the canopy.  In SB the D-22 would probably be tiered lower because it has poorer visibility.  The D-15 should be at either the same BR as the D-22 and D-25 or 0.3 lower. 

 

I don't think your "types of aircraft" comparison is completely fair, and I'll explain why. 

 

"The Americans had P-40s, P-47s, P-38s, P-36s, P-51s, P-63, P-39, F6F, F4F, F4Us, F2As, F8F, etc etc." 

 

1.  Both the P-36 and F2A were phased out of active service with the U.S. VERY quickly.  If we aren't going to count the He 112 for Germany (which I don't think we should, since it was barely used and quickly made obsolete), we shouldn't count those two either.  I'll also be nice and not count the I-16s for the Soviet Union, as they were quickly replaced. 

2.  You count the LaGG and La series as one type of plane, and all the Yaks as one type of plane, and the Typhoon and Tempest as one type of plane, due to the later designs being developments of the previous ones.  Fair enough.  In that case, you should also count the P-39 and P-63 together, and ditto the F4F and F6F, as the same logic applies.  You could even count the P-40 and P-51 together with that argument, but I'll be nice and not do that. 

4.  I'm not sure I would count the P-39/P-63 anyway.  They were barely used in combat by the U.S. (with the Soviet Union is another story entirely).  I have no idea why Gaijin gave us so many variants of these planes instead of more commonly-used types. 

3.  The F8F did not see combat in the war.  I won't count it or the Me 262, as the 262 was a very rare late-war development.  For the same reason, I won't count the J7M, or the Sea Fury.

4.  In fact, let's split up the USAAF and USN plane lines, shall we?  After all, you did that with Japan.  That gives us: 

 

U.S. (army):  P-40s, P-38s, P-47s, P-51s.

U.S. (navy):  F4F/F6Fs, F4Us.

Germany:  Bf 109s, Fw 190s/Ta 152s. 

Britain:  Hurricanes, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests.

Soviet Union:  Yak-1/7/9/3s, LaGG-3/La-5/7s, MiG-3s.

Japan (army):  Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-61/100s, Ki-84s.

Japan (navy):  A6Ms, J2Ms, N1Ks.

 

Which leads us to tally up the total number of variants of these listed planes for each country, counting rare premium/event variants (but not ace planes or captured planes that aren't new variants): 

 

U.S. (army):  19 (Three P-40s, five P-38s, four P-47s, seven P-51s).

U.S. (navy):  10 (Four F4Fs/F6Fs, six F4Us).

U.S. (total):  29

Germany:  27 (Fifteen 109s, twelve 190s/152s). 

Britain (army):  26 (Three hurricanes, seventeen Spitfires, six Typhoons/Tempests).

Britain (navy):  3 (Two Sea Hurricanes, one Seafire, not counting the postwar Seafire FR.47).

Britain (total):  29

Soviet Union:  28 (Twelve Yaks, not counting the postwar Yak-9P, thirteen La-series aircraft, three MiGs). 

Japan (army):  16 (Three Ki-43s, Three Ki-44s, seven Ki-61/100s, three Ki-84s).

Japan (navy):  18 (Nine A6Ms, five J2Ms, four N1Ks). 

Japan (total):  34

 

As you can see, the U.S. does not have a massive glut of common aircraft variants in comparison to other nations'.

 

I'll just close this out by pointing out that adding the P-47C-2, D-15, and D-22 would still leave it with less than half the number of 109 variants.

"Why ask for the D razorbacks as well as the C-2?  Because the D razorbacks could be as good as the bubbletop D's (in the case of the D-22 vs. the D-25), or only SLIGHTLY worse (in the case of the D-15, which will only differ in performance from the D-22 as much as the D-25 differs from the D-28, as in each case the difference between the two planes is a better prop).  The C-2 will be noticeably worse than the bubbletop D's.  I want it, but I also want these variants to show that not all razorbacks were substantially worse than the bubbletops." 

So put the same BR? Isn't that a little reductant since there's already P-47s at that BR? I don't see a reason to add ANOTHER P-47 at that BR, looks useless to me, if other P-47s are already up to the job. So if the C-2 is worse, which it was, why not add it only in the mid tier, at a lower BR than the D-25? To me, it makes more sense.

 

"As for what BR to place them at?  The D-22 should be the same BR as the D-25 in AB and RB, since the only difference is the canopy.  In SB the D-22 would probably be tiered lower because it has poorer visibility.  The D-15 should be at either the same BR as the D-22 and D-25 or 0.3 lower. "

Why the same BR? If the plane performs worse it shouldn't be at 4.3, would make it useless IMO. D-22 at 4.0? No, it's a little too much, that BR the C-2 can fight properly.

 

 

 

"I don't think your "types of aircraft" comparison is completely fair, and I'll explain why. 

 

"The Americans had P-40s, P-47s, P-38s, P-36s, P-51s, P-63, P-39, F6F, F4F, F4Us, F2As, F8F, etc etc." 

 

1.  Both the P-36 and F2A were phased out of active service with the U.S. VERY quickly.  If we aren't going to count the He 112 for Germany (which I don't think we should, since it was barely used and quickly made obsolete), we shouldn't count those two either.  I'll also be nice and not count the I-16s for the Soviet Union, as they were quickly replaced. 

2.  You count the LaGG and La series as one type of plane, and all the Yaks as one type of plane, and the Typhoon and Tempest as one type of plane, due to the later designs being developments of the previous ones.  Fair enough.  In that case, you should also count the P-39 and P-63 together, and ditto the F4F and F6F, as the same logic applies.  You could even count the P-40 and P-51 together with that argument, but I'll be nice and not do that. 

4.  I'm not sure I would count the P-39/P-63 anyway.  They were barely used in combat by the U.S. (with the Soviet Union is another story entirely).  I have no idea why Gaijin gave us so many variants of these planes instead of more commonly-used types. 

3.  The F8F did not see combat in the war.  I won't count it or the Me 262, as the 262 was a very rare late-war development.  For the same reason, I won't count the J7M, or the Sea Fury."

 

1. F2A and P-36 were phased out quickly but they still saw combat in the early stages of WW2, bare in mind the Finnish used F2As(not navalized) against the Soviets, and the French also used P-36 but let's not count the foreign use, it's not relevant here. Obsolete or not, still was used, so it justifies being added. I-16 was the backbone at the start of Operation Barbarossa, Soviet pilots used them against the Germans at the start.

2. Fair enough for the P-39, About the F6F, that's false, F6F was a completely new design, wasn't developed from the Wildcat, they took some ideas from it but it was a new design. Going to assume you're not saying P-40 is the same as the P-51, they were based from different models.

3. The F8F did not see combat in WW2, fair, it saw combat in Indochina with the french. And the 262 is what? I'm sorry what? Me-262 was used in mid 1944, a year before the Germans surrendered, so I have no idea why wouldn't you count it despite seeing combat and destroying Allied aircraft(not 1 or 2 but 500+). The J7M or the Sea Fury, going to assume you're talking about the J7W, okay, let's not count it.

4. Yeah that's fair for the P-39/63. They were barely used but still used, Philip Rasmussen(One of the Pearl Harbor pilots) flew a P-400 in the Pacific(which is an export version of the P-39.) P-39s were used in the Pacific.

 

 

 

 

 

"4.  In fact, let's split up the USAAF and USN plane lines, shall we?  After all, you did that with Japan.  That gives us: "

Allow me to show you a different light.

American models - P-36,P-38,P-39 P-40, P-47, P-51/F2A, F4F and F6F -and F4U - 10.

Soviet Union: Yak-1, Yak-3, Yak-7, Yak-9, La-5, La-7, LaGG-3, I-16, MiG-3 - 9(counting them as models and not as improved variants which they were, if you want to only count the base models, you'd be left with Yak-1, LaGG-3, I-16 and MiG-3).

Britain - Spitfire, Hurricane, Tempest(Typhoon included which is a variant then)/Seafire, Sea Hurricane- 5.

Japan - A6M, J2M and N1K/Ki-43, N1K, Ki-44, Ki-61(Ki-100 included because it was a Ki-61 with a radial engine and different wing loading), Ki-84 - 8.

 

As you can see, US CLEARLY has more models to play with, maybe that's why you see more variants of 109s and Zeros in the game instead of P-47s, because they didn't have the same number of models as the US did, again. Baffles me how you're not counting P-36s, F2As and ME-262 when they were actually used in combat. 

 

"As you can see, the U.S. does not have a massive glut of common aircraft variants in comparison to other nations'."

Not as variants but as base models they do.

 

"I'll just close this out by pointing out that adding the P-47C-2, D-15, and D-22 would still leave it with less than half the number of 109 variants."

Again, lets add 5 P-47 variants. Lets add 5 109 variants, lets see how the tech tree would look.

36 minutes ago, CptPejelagarto said:

 

It is a decent point but not really valid for this situation, we don’t “need” half of the variants of each aircraft we both have mentioned, in the contrary it is a pleasure to be able to choose whichever you like more, right?

This applies not only in the case of “this was the backbone of”, but with every vehicle in the game (that includes P-47s :p:

 

The only BR bracket that needs balancing really is 7.7 and up. 

 

One of the big features of War Thunder is that the game has a crap ton of variants of the same vehicle, no other game can offer that level of variety (that includes planes, tanks and soon ships). 

 

Besides, I guess we can all agree that we don’t “need” more P-47s, but we want more of them anyway, the same as we want any other aircraft, from any other nation. 

I am not a Thunderbolt biased guy, in what regards to gameplay I hated the airspawn because it was unfair and because of it I haven’t touched the P-47N (a plane that I like), I grew up visiting a museum that has a silver P-47D (not a Razorback) so I developed an attachment for the plane, you see it’s not about “how hard can I club with this” it’s about “I’m glad to see another piece of history being added”

It’s a nice feeling and it’s triggered by any vehicle of the era. 

 

If you don’t like the plane because “it would be OP” or “It’s too similar to the other P-47s” fine, that’s your opinion, but that doesn’t mean that the people who want them shouldn’t get them right?

 

And btw, the B and C models are a “Must have” too!

:D

Not saying because they're OP or something, it's not the OP aspect of it..is it needed? No, it's not, plus it would leave a little dilema in regards of balancing, why adding another P-47 at the same BR when we can add a P-47C-2 at a lower BR that makes more sense IMO.

Dw I hated the P-47 low BR and airspawn as much as the next guy, glad they fixed it but I really do not see the need for more P-47s.

Edited by nelsondx
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nelsondx, now there's another 'Razorback' variant...The '-C' model...602 models were built with under-fuselage shackles for a 166-Imp. gal. drop tank. This was meant for escorting B-17s,which was a little better than the 1st models that showed up in England in January,1943...that being the 'B' model, in which only 171 were built. And 'Yes!', the 'B' model was also in 'Razorback' configuration.

 

If there was only one thing that was similar to all the 'T-Bolts' built...whether 'Razorback' or not...it was the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 'Double Wasp' radial engine. That monster of a powerplant gave out more than 2,000 horses, & was built with maximum durability in mind. As for the actual overall total of P-47s built by Republic Aircraft during WW2, 15,675 were assembled...just narrowly edging out North American's P-51 Mustang (15,586) by...a mere 89 planes. Is that close or what?

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