tanks/vehicles Prototype M48 with turret Leopard 2

[pieve 3,578]

         Germany

 

 Prototype M48 with turret Leopard 2

Even when Leopard 1 was just getting into service, the German military was keen to produce an improved tank in the next decade. This resulted in the beginning of the development of the MBT-70 in cooperation with the United States from 1963. However, as early as 1967, it became questionable whether the MBT-70 would enter into service at any time in the foreseeable future. The German government issued the order to search for future upgrade options German M48 Patton.
West Germany has a lot of M48 Patton in its service which still has low mileage and in very good working order. With all the M48 stock in the Bundeswehr, throwing away those already obsolete tanks was frankly pathetic. But fighting them against Soviet armored groups was quite suicidal; where the obsolete 90mm gun would be ineffective. Therefore, the Bundeswehr worked through several options to improve these vehicles, one of which was the installation of the Leopard 2AV tower with Smoothbore 120mm pistols.

 

 

A major problem is that the M48 tower ring is larger than the Leopard 2 tower ring (M48 turret ring, 2159mm, Leopard 2 turret ring, 1980mm), so a turret ring adapter has been installed to fit the tower in the chassis. The concept of this vehicle was intentionally used as a self-propelled anti-tank weapon; placed in a defensive position to stop the Soviet armored groups. However, this tank has never seen any development due to how far the Soviet armored vehicle technology has evolved and due to the amount of Leopard 1s in the Bundeswehr service.

 

source:

Spoiler

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by pieve

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

[swpixy 1,220]

On 01/07/2018 at 17:57, pieve said:

Therefore, the Bundeswehr worked through several options to improve these vehicles, one of which was the installation of the Leopard 2AV tower with Smoothbore 120mm pistols.

 

A major problem is that the M48 tower ring is larger than the Leopard 2 tower ring (M48 turret ring, 2159mm, Leopard 2 turret ring, 1980mm), so a turret ring adapter has been installed to fit the tower in the chassis. The concept of this vehicle was intentionally used as a self-propelled anti-tank weapon; placed in a defensive position to stop the Soviet armored groups. However, this tank has never seen any development due to how far the Soviet armored vehicle technology has evolved and due to the amount of Leopard 1s in the Bundeswehr service.

 

 

 

It was not intended to participate in any form of combat at any point (even though it would technically be combat capable to a degree),or intended as a cheap supplement to the Leopard 2,

for that matter:

That modified M48 hull was only made to make it easier to carry the turret around for tests and trials (infact,one of the pictures above even mentions that in text).

That said,upgunning obsolete tanks with the 120 was considered later-but the obsolete tank in question was the Leopard 1.The 1A5 received the reinforced trunnion needed to swap in the 120mm if needed,and the 1A6 actually mounted it,but was still considered to be too expensive to be worth the effort.

 

That said,I don´t mind seeing it ingame-but i don´t think it would have a place in the regular techtree (there are definitely better options for that).

Edited July 2, 2018 by swpixy

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

wow. an mKPz M48 with the gun and turret straight off the Leo 2.

 

+1 though i have no clue what BR it would be at. with how crap the mobility of the M48 is, but with how much LOLpen and one-shot capability that the DM13 has, i can only assume 9.0 or 9.3 at this point.

 

what Leo 2 version is the turret from? 2A0? 2A1/2? i doubt the germans would just waste a 2A4 turret just for static defense.

[pieve 3,578]

On 02/07/2018 at 19:02, swpixy said:

It was not intended to participate in any form of combat at any point (even though it would technically be combat capable to a degree),or intended as a cheap supplement to the Leopard 2,

for that matter:

That modified M48 hull was only made to make it easier to carry the turret around for tests and trials (infact,one of the pictures above even mentions that in text).

That said,upgunning obsolete tanks with the 120 was considered later-but the obsolete tank in question was the Leopard 1.The 1A5 received the reinforced trunnion needed to swap in the 120mm if needed,and the 1A6 actually mounted it,but was still considered to be too expensive to be worth the effort.

 

That said,I don´t mind seeing it ingame-but i don´t think it would have a place in the regular techtree (there are definitely better options for that). 

 

Bundeswehr issued a proposal to upgrade M-48 with the German company Wegmann (Kassel) to a new configuration known M-48 hybrid, but government saw that it was not very effective
That is why it was a test of the Bundeswehr to adapt the tower of the leoprad 2 on the M-48 for a future modernization, options to improve these vehicles.
But that does not mean it can not come in the game

 

14 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

wow. an mKPz M48 with the gun and turret straight off the Leo 2.

+1 though i have no clue what BR it would be at. with how crap the mobility of the M48 is, but with how much LOLpen and one-shot capability that the DM13 has, i can only assume 9.0 or 9.3 at this point.

what Leo 2 version is the turret from? 2A0? 2A1/2? i doubt the germans would just waste a 2A4 turret just for static defense. 

Admiral Aruon, this tower is from the 2AV leopard that was tested the same year as Leopard 2AV was in the United States competing with XM-1s

Edited July 4, 2018 by pieve

[swpixy 1,220]

7 hours ago, pieve said:

That is why it was a test of the Bundeswehr to adapt the tower of the leoprad 2 on the M-48 for a future modernization, options to improve these vehicles.

No,it was not-it was done to make it easier to move the turret around.It has nothing to do with testing wether or not the hull can take the turret.

Its simply a platform that allows you to move the turret around when the hull that it belongs to isn´t around-be that for maintenance or because you want to test the turrets straight off the production line without having the appropriate hull avaiable.

And as i also said before-the text in the picture you posted literally says that thats what its for:

https://i.imgur.com/BVIoI5W.jpg

Just read the translated text below (and yes-the german text says exactly the same thing).

 

Mind you,they DID consider upgunning the M48-and they DID put that in action in 1978-1980 with the M48A2GA2 (90mm---> 105mm L7)

Also,they wanted lots of Leopard 2´s,as quickly as possible.They ordered a good 2000 or so throughout the 80s.Creating another vehicle that would have used the same parts definitely wouldn´t have helped with that.

15 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

what Leo 2 version is the turret from? 2A0? 2A1/2? i doubt the germans would just waste a 2A4 turret just for static defense.

The turret belongs to a Production Leopard 2-note the shape of the turretcheeks and mantlet.

http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/33.jpg

Aswell as the different PERI,the driver´s headrest on the righthand turretcheek (not present on 2AV),and the lack of a PZB200 or mounting points for it aswell as lack of crosswind sensor,making it atleast a turret of a 2A1 of the third batch (thats where the crosswind sensor was dropped).

8 hours ago, pieve said:

But that does not mean it can not come in the game

 

On 03/07/2018 at 00:02, swpixy said:

That said,I don´t mind seeing it ingame-but i don´t think it would have a place in the regular techtree (there are definitely better options for that).

 

[pieve 3,578]

1 hour ago, swpixy said:

No,it was not-it was done to make it easier to move the turret around.It has nothing to do with testing wether or not the hull can take the turret.

Its simply a platform that allows you to move the turret around when the hull that it belongs to isn´t around-be that for maintenance or because you want to test the turrets straight off the production line without having the appropriate hull avaiable.

And as i also said before-the text in the picture you posted literally says that thats what its for:

https://i.imgur.com/BVIoI5W.jpg

Just read the translated text below (and yes-the german text says exactly the same thing).

 

Mind you,they DID consider upgunning the M48-and they DID put that in action in 1978-1980 with the M48A2GA2 (90mm---> 105mm L7)

Also,they wanted lots of Leopard 2´s,as quickly as possible.They ordered a good 2000 or so throughout the 80s.Creating another vehicle that would have used the same parts definitely wouldn´t have helped with that.

The turret belongs to a Production Leopard 2-note the shape of the turretcheeks and mantlet.

http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/33.jpg

Aswell as the different PERI,the driver´s headrest on the righthand turretcheek (not present on 2AV),and the lack of a PZB200 or mounting points for it aswell as lack of crosswind sensor,making it atleast a turret of a 2A1 of the third batch (thats where the crosswind sensor was dropped).

 

 

I will soon publish the documents here.

 

You're wrong about that. This image is of the leopard 2 AV with cannon 105mm, it is totally different from the leopard 2 AV 120mm

Edited July 5, 2018 by pieve

[swpixy 1,220]

1 hour ago, pieve said:

You're wrong about that. This image is of the leopard 2 AV with cannon 105mm, it is totally different from the leopard 2 AV 120mm

https://gunm.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1480085801_leopard-2av.jpg

Thats the 120mm armed 2AV.Note the bore evactuator design and recoil tube.And as you can see-the differences still apply:

Mantlet is a bit closer to the production version,but still not exactly the same (less slope on top,two lifting lugs or mounting points on top that the production also doesnt have),cheeks are still different,PERI is still different,it also still has the crosswind sensor that fell away with 3rd batch of production (and is missing on the turret mounted on the M48),still has the lifting points on the turret edges (also missing on the production models),different rails,missing headrest.

 

1 hour ago, pieve said:

I will soon publish the documents here.

Well,please do.

[pieve 3,578]

12 hours ago, swpixy said:

https://gunm.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1480085801_leopard-2av.jpg

Thats the 120mm armed 2AV.Note the bore evactuator design and recoil tube.And as you can see-the differences still apply:

Mantlet is a bit closer to the production version,but still not exactly the same (less slope on top,two lifting lugs or mounting points on top that the production also doesnt have),cheeks are still different,PERI is still different,it also still has the crosswind sensor that fell away with 3rd batch of production (and is missing on the turret mounted on the M48),still has the lifting points on the turret edges (also missing on the production models),different rails,missing headrest.

Good, I'm not in the mood to explain the same thing.

[scavenjer 1,892]

@pieve

It even says it on the picture:

Quote

M48 hull with Leopard 2 turret - unfortunately no proposal for an active-service vehicle for the German Army, but a M 48 hull to allow easier transport of the leopard 2 turret during trials, note the redesigned turret base(?).

Last part is a bit unreadable, but you can see they even say it wasn't meant for actual service.
 

Though I'd still want it :P

[swpixy 1,220]

15 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

@pieve

It even says it on the picture:

Last part is a bit unreadable, but you can see they even say it wasn't meant for actual service.
 

Though I'd still want it :P

Funny thing is,the source cited behind that text is....

None other than the Guys responsible for new developments and procurement.

The BWB (Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung).And also the WTS (Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung) -aka,the Bundeswehr´s collection for various military objects (i.e.,Vehicles.)

Edited July 5, 2018 by swpixy

[pieve 3,578]

22 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

@pieve

It even says it on the picture: 

Last part is a bit unreadable, but you can see they even say it wasn't meant for actual service.
 

Though I'd still want it :P

Okay, but where is the rest of the document explaining the real reason?  For now I am waiting for the release of the document for me to provide here

11 minutes ago, swpixy said:

Funny thing is,the source cited behind that text is....

None other than the Guys responsible for new developments and procurement.

The BWB (Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung).And also the WTS (Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung) -aka,the Bundeswehr´s collection for various military objects (i.e.,Vehicles.) 

you just have to leave the documents here, do not you?  if you want to leave the documents here it will be very good

[swpixy 1,220]

1 hour ago, pieve said:

Okay, but where is the rest of the document explaining the real reason?  For now I am waiting for the release of the document for me to provide here

you just have to leave the documents here, do not you?  if you want to leave the documents here it will be very good

Source: Tankograd 5011-"Der Kampfpanzer M48 in der Bundeswehr" by Stefan Marx.The very same book you quoted as source above.You even posted that very same picture with the text in the OP.

 

[kamikazi21358 998]

I didn’t see a number how many were made, how many of these were there?

 

I don’t want this under the tree or premium though, I think this could be an event vehicle; you can add a category for that under the poll?

Edited July 8, 2018 by kamikazi21358

[XDrake991 278]

On 09/07/2018 at 01:50, kamikazi21358 said:

I didn’t see a number how many were made, how many of these were there?

 

I don’t want this under the tree or premium though, I think this could be an event vehicle; you can add a category for that under the poll?

I dont get why everyone is so crazy about this thing at all. It wasnt supposed to be a combat vehicle. They used it to move the Leo 2 turret around the shooting range. It probably was a single piece.

[CoreCass 55]

why not the M60-2000  it existed. and was used. tough its a different turret design 

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

On 09/07/2018 at 01:50, kamikazi21358 said:

I didn’t see a number how many were made, how many of these were there?

 

I don’t want this under the tree or premium though, I think this could be an event vehicle; you can add a category for that under the poll?

pretty sure they just made one since this vehicle is not meant for combat it is just a test rig to carry the turret around on the shooting range.
 

[Querulous1 3,276]

This would be an interesting vehicle hybrid if needed to fill a BR hole.

[CokeSpray 7,274]

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.