Turn Circles and application there of...

[Dobs_475TH 515]

So I get the comment again and again "There is no way a 38 can out turn a XXX".....and I agree.  However, if you know turn circles, pursuit curves and what to do when you see XX in order to gain an advantage you can effectively employ a 38 (insert lesser turning aircraft here) against a superior turning aircraft.  This is just a basics...I don't go into pursuit curves (Lead, Lag, and Pure) or what happens when you apply lead against a turning bandit (Increase Heading crossing angle (or angle off), Increase Aspect, increase Velocity of closure).....that is for another thread:)  But I do show a visual representation of what most commonly happens when I bounce a 109 and then "turn inside them"....  Its not magic, its not skill..its just using knowledge as a weapon (so maybe a little bit of skill) and 20+ years of flight simming....

 

[Youda008 2,791]

Awesome! This page will be handy when i read "How did the P-51 outturn my Bf-109?!" for the next time.

[Graxum 332]

On 06/08/2018 at 20:04, Youda008 said:

Awesome! This page will be handy when i read "How did the P-51 outturn my Bf-109?!" for the next time.

How did the Bf110F outturn my spitfire Mk.IIb?

[Dobs_475TH 515]

Faster your speed, the bigger your turn.  So if he was slow, he may have a small radius and if you were fast you may have had a big radius.

 

Some light reading:
http://www.flightlearnings.com/2009/08/26/radius-of-turn/

 

http://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aerodynamics-and-performance/turn-performance

 

 

Bottom line is when you read all this, you have to understand the below chart.

 

 

This is the G required to maintain LEVEL Flight....   Think you can see why fights go down here.  To  bank steeper, you need more G. To have more G you need speed, if you have too much speed you have a HUGE turn radius. 

 

So here comes the Ye Old phrase ...Corner Velocity. Simply where you have the optimal blend of a small radius and best rate combination.  You turn tighter slower, but turn faster while faster...Corner is where you blend those two together to be at the best rate/radius combination.  If you look at the Energy Maneuverability chart...you can see the tightest turn and quickest turn pointed out. 

 

 

 

Knowing where you fare vs other aircraft  in these energy diagrams is important.   An aircraft with a higher G loading capability (cough cough 109 cough cough) will benefit greatly from being faster then an aircraft with a lower G loading capability at the same speed.  

 

Finally we have the finite limits of your aircraft design...note the drastic difference between positive and negative capability..

 

 

Enjoy:)

[Rapitor 10,702]

Can I borrow some of this to expand my chapter 3 please ?

 

[Dobs_475TH 515]

Yes. You are free to use anything I post. Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

 

Cheers!

[Lonewolves 0]

Nice

[_LFW_CallingFire 0]

So I have a question, what country and plane would be the best turnfighter? I am not really a turn guy, but rather, a loop guy. In my 109 F-1 I can easily nail kids when they turn because my flips are faster then their turn and I cut power and use flaps when I turn/loops. Also, wouldn't that help, to cut power and enable flaps while turning?

[DiGiTHT 82]

8 hours ago, CallingFire said:

So I have a question, what country and plane would be the best turnfighter?

Generally speaking if you want a plane that is good at turning then Japan (A6M) or UK (Spitfire) would be your best bet, but it all depends on your definition of a turn and how the plane is flown.
- Purely horizontal sustained turn then the Japanese A6M (zero).
- If you add a vertical element to the turn in the form of a high yo-yo and low yo-yo then the Japanese Ki-43/44.
- Purely vertical turn/loop then the US P-38/F6F or UK Typhoon.
 

 

8 hours ago, CallingFire said:

 Also, wouldn't that help, to cut power and enable flaps while turning?

Yes and no. Cutting power and enabling flaps will allow you to turn tighter initially ,but you will bleed energy/speed and once that runs low your turn rate will suffer as a result. Although some planes turn well at low speed due to their high power to weight ratio and acceleration (A6M ,spitfire ,ki-43) its always better to try and maintain as much energy as possible. And often a plane with worse turn rate can out-turn a plane with better turn-rate simply by using the right maneuvers.

I wouldn't advise performing a flat horizontal turn in any plane unless all other options have been expended.

If you plan to turn fight is best to Use a High Yo-Yo as this will both decrease your turn-radius whilst simultaneously allow you to conserve energy.



Although a High Yo-Yo does require some speed ,so you may need to mix it up with a low Yo-Yo throw in to further increase your energy/speed and turn radius.



 

Edited October 3, 2018 by DiGiTHT

[Youda008 2,791]

2 hours ago, DiGiTHT said:

- Purely vertical turn/loop then the US P-38/F6F or UK Typhoon.

Good joke.

[_LFW_CallingFire 0]

Thanks, DiGi.

[DiGiTHT 82]

No worries ... Good luck

[Dobs_475TH 515]

So to clarify things on the Lo and High Yo-Yo.  They are considered closure control moves: 

 

Excess closure=High YoYo. By going up you bleed speed (Kinetic energy), but increase your Potential energy in the form of altitude. You also fly a LONGER flight path, and thus preserve 3-9 advantage.  The benefit of this is the delta in altitude, which allows you to turn inside of your bandit (more turning room as you use that "longer flight path" to get into a better position (unless he see's you go up and keeps his lift vector on)...

Items I see "wrong" on the diagram..."attacker rolls away from direction of break" (great way to lose sight..."Lose sight, lose fight"),...better option is a straight pull up, bandit should be to the left of attackers nose and visible. Then over rotate, put lift vector in lead, and start aligning fuselages for a gun shot.  And I'm not sure what an aileron turn is:)  Pretty sure they mean roll....

 

The low YoYo is to gain closure...when you are stuck in lag, and just can't get there.  Over rotate, put lift vector in lead (2), and let gravity (3) help you maintain Energy.  You also fly a "longer" flight path, but if executed properly you should be in a snapshot position, or if you have patience, a series of small lo yo-yos and you nibble your way back into a gun WEZ.  The diagram shown between 4 and 5 is not a well executed finish. Prior to that you should be attempting to align fuselages, and if anything be slightly below the bandit, not above (above means you pissed away more E). Since you went down, you need to come back up...and that costs E.  Again, all of this is based on a bandit which doesn't recognize your maneuver and allows you to do it, vs an aware bandit which puts lift vector on you and stuffs your attempt by changing the plane of the fight effectively.

 

Nothing @DiGiTHT said was wrong, just missing the application of the maneuvers. Remember the bandit has a vote, and if he see's you doing either one of the above he should put lift vector on and continue his pull to create a maximum angle and closure problem.

 

Radius of turn is controlled by airspeed and G capability.  If too fast (above corner), your turn will be large.  If too slow, you lose rate as mentioned above...  Good read at the link below..
"The smallest radius turn occurs where you fly fast enough and at a large enough angle of bank to load the aircraft to its maximum G and where that airspeed coincides with the stall speed at that angle of bank."
Read more http://www.flightlearnings.com/2009/08/26/radius-of-turn/ , but be aware they are talking civilian aircraft...read the comments for the part where G loading comes in. 

 

Discussion on rate of turn can be found here:

http://www.flightlearnings.com/2009/08/26/rate-of-turn/

 

 

[DiGiTHT 82]

@Dobs_

 

Thanks for correcting the problems with the diagram's. I simply grabbed them for a quick google search and didn't consider the inaccuracies .
Also thanks for explaining it more eloquently. Completely agree with your post.
 

On 26/10/2018 at 14:23, Dobs_ said:

 

Items I see "wrong" on the diagram..."attacker rolls away from direction of break" (great way to lose sight..."Lose sight, lose fight"),...

 

I mostly play air RB so this is abit of a non-factor. But great advice for sim battles, ill definitely bare this in mind when i eventually get a Joystick 
 

[Dobs_475TH 515]

Yeah I went from online flight sims with icons to WT sim...and I was like "Boy I suck at keeping sight"....relying on those neon billboards to help me keep tally, and SA on incoming bandits:)  

Good diagrams though for the visual depiction of the maneuvers.

[Dobs_475TH 515]

Some additions (in another thread)...
 

 

[TheSaxman 4]

On 26/10/2018 at 07:23, Dobs_ said:

Items I see "wrong" on the diagram... "attacker rolls away from direction of break" (great way to lose sight..."Lose sight, lose fight")

 

This is a displacement roll. The Lag Roll, Canopy Roll, and Barrel Roll Attack all involve a roll away from the break to provide displacement, before rolling back into the turn.

[Dobs_475TH 515]

On 25/09/2020 at 12:42, TheSaxman said:

 

This is a displacement roll. The Lag Roll, Canopy Roll, and Barrel Roll Attack all involve a roll away from the break to provide displacement, before rolling back into the turn.

More of a quarter plane per the diagram....the text accompanying it just sucks.  By roll away from the direction of turn it looks like the diagram has them rolling "out" of the turn and qoing up...so essentially 90 degrees out of plane of motion, then resetting lift vector in lead to align fuselages.  

If they had depicted them rolling away from the direction and finishing the loaded roll, it would be a displacement roll to a misaligned turn circle set up.