Incredibly silly and fragile Damage models for aircraft

[Latios381 7]

well since 1.81 was added there has been a "new" and extremely irritating bug going around regarding damage models - when taking off in large aircraft such as tri-cycle geared bombers, when the tail strikes the ground during a flare instead of taking damage, the entire tail section comes off. this did not used to happen prior to 1.81

#2018.10.26 23.03.23.wrpl

2018_10_26_22_28_42__7884.clog

[Pony51 6,572]

Approved, but need more details.

And I do know what you talk about. 

 

Lets try a few examples.

B-29, B-24, and I think G5N has tail bumps to prevent damage, can be a good start for this report.

Can you get some missions with those?

[Byrnjar 13]

On 29/10/2018 at 19:05, Pony51 said:

Approved, but need more details.

And I do know what you talk about. 

 

Lets try a few examples.

B-29, B-24, and I think G5N has tail bumps to prevent damage, can be a good start for this report.

Can you get some missions with those?

 

Pony,

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this - even if you don't approve it.  I was going to submit this in a separate, new thread, but this one is close enough to my issue for me to jump in. 

 

The issue is plane fragility - ever since 1.81   I mean, you barely get nicked by anything and kaboom - there goes your tail like it was spring loaded.  I used to be able to combat land a damaged aircraft like the Ju 88 with no gear and skid the length of the runway - it would knock out my engine core and I'd lose a gunner, but the plane would hold together and you could repair it.  Like dropping a piano off a 3 story building. 

 

With a maxed out, aced crew of Level 75, it would still take close to a full minute to fix (as opposed to about 10 seconds for a lightly damaged one), but it could be fixed.  My beloved Bf 110 was a sturdy plane and always got me home - I could see the ground through the holes in the wings and combat land it - with the gear shot out - on one engine and it would survive.  Now, I take the same plane - fully upgraded, fully trained Ace crew of Level 75 - and touch down as gently as a leaf, just above stall speed, and the plane flies apart like it was made of Legos.  

 

I've been playing a couple years, and I've never seen this before, and it started with 1.81... something to do with the helicopter damage model affecting all the other aircraft?  Going by the chat discussions we have had, other people have the same opinion:  planes are suddenly made of glass.  Even a regular landing will cause your plane to fly apart... not just the tricycle landing gear planes... 

 

I think if you've invested the time to train up your crew, grind for all the upgrades for your plane and are a good enough pilot to get your plane home with an engine shot out, the other one smoking like a chimney and so many holes your plane looks more like a screen door than an actual airplane - and you stick the landing - you shouldn't have to face the outrage of having your plane fly apart like that.

 

That's all I got.  Peace.

 

B

[Pony51 6,572]

14 hours ago, Byrnjar said:

 

Pony,

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this - even if you don't approve it.  I was going to submit this in a separate, new thread, but this one is close enough to my issue for me to jump in. 

 

The issue is plane fragility - ever since 1.81   I mean, you barely get nicked by anything and kaboom - there goes your tail like it was spring loaded.  I used to be able to combat land a damaged aircraft like the Ju 88 with no gear and skid the length of the runway - it would knock out my engine core and I'd lose a gunner, but the plane would hold together and you could repair it.  Like dropping a piano off a 3 story building. 

 

DO you have pictures, videos, something that shows what is happening?

 

Thanks

[Byrnjar 13]

20 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

DO you have pictures, videos, something that shows what is happening?

 

Thanks

 

I can put together something, I am sure... but this begs a question that I need your help in answering:  How do I show that the planes are falling apart now and compare it to how they behaved pre-1.81?  I mean, from an Engineering perspective the first step in fixing a problem is showing that a problem actually exists.  Second step is analyzing the problem, which is where we are now.  I cannot roll back 1.81 to get evidence that I would then use to compare to post-1.81 behavior.  But you can.

 

I'm not trying to be cheeky or anything - this is how I would go about analyzing the problem.  I will try to put something together that will help you, even if it is me hand-writing what happened or a compilation of .wrpl and .clog files so you can review the footage yourself...

 

I very much appreciate you taking the time to read my post and responding.  Peace.

 

B

[Pony51 6,572]

There is not much we as players can use (I am not a Dev), so we have to do the best in showing how things have changed.

Post what you can, as much as you can, and I will forward.

[Gavin_Mactavish 943]

Can I help?.

I have never broken my tail on take off but after 1.79/81 iv started to break them off.This maybe be due to the gun buff/DM nerf of all planes.

 

-EDIT-

Tell me if you need tests for UK too.

 

I Gavin swears that before 1.79, the planes used to have a black tail on striking.

Conditions:

Must have a trolley landing gear.

Must apply full elevator from initial take off

Must be a jet (jets have trolley landing gears and high enough stall speeds to strike)

B29/TU4 are unable to strike since the fuselage literally does not take damage on striking.

Heres a test for RU

 

Problem - Jets should scrap their tails (turn tails into black/red color) instead of breaking them off.

Spoiler

 

MIG-17

TU-14T

 

La-200

 

Yak-17 (Does not strike on take off, bounce striking did it.)

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Gavin_Mactavish

[Pony51 6,572]

10 hours ago, Gavin_Mactavish said:

Can I help?.

I have never broken my tail on take off but after 1.79/81 iv started to break them off.

This maybe be due to the DM of all planes.
 

 

You can help, please be detailed in your examples.

[Ska_King_Felix 1,450]

I've got an example, though no images.

 

In previous patches, the P-38 series would either lose tail control (early) or have one or both vertical stabilizers turn black when striking the ground (later).  The P-38 has tail skids to prevent damaging the tail if it strikes during takeoff or landing.  In the latest patches, a tail strike resulted in the entire tail section (including both booms) falling off.

[Byrnjar 13]

On 01/11/2018 at 13:47, Pony51 said:

There is not much we as players can use (I am not a Dev), so we have to do the best in showing how things have changed.

Post what you can, as much as you can, and I will forward.

Here's two quick ones.

 

First is me flying a Wellington and having the tail shot off - which happens more often than not.  Same thing happened to a SM 79 bis/T.M earlier.  I don't know why anyone bothers flying a bomber anymore - they literally cannot stay alive long enough to defend themselves... against anything.  Why even bother?  Bring a bomber and try to help out your team and one dinky plane makes one pass and you're dead.   Your gunners don't even bother shooting at them, half the time - too far away or in a dead spot.

 

The second is me combat landing that Ju 88 A-4.  Flaps shot out, but engines okay, so I decided to try and combat land it at the airstrip with no gear.  Just above stall speed - touched down as flat as I could and kaboom - tail flies off.  Tail flies off BEFORE anything else happens, btw.  It still repaired the plane, for all the good it did me, but it's still infuriating.  Just straight 200 Proof BS.

 

Devs go through all the trouble to make a new Rank IV Prem bomber and I just have to sit here and laugh - WHO is going to be foolish enough to buy and fly that?  It won't last 20 seconds at Tier IV.  My crews are all maxed out level 75's and Aced in their respective planes and even Tier I, II bombers rarely last long enough for me to give enough thought to going back for more bombs...

 

#2018.11.04 21.42.52.wrpl

 

#2018.11.04 21.21.33.wrpl

[Pony51 6,572]

16 hours ago, Byrnjar said:

Here's two quick ones.

 

First is me flying a Wellington and having the tail shot off - which happens more often than not.  Same thing happened to a SM 79 bis/T.M earlier.  I don't know why anyone bothers flying a bomber anymore - they literally cannot stay alive long enough to defend themselves... against anything.  Why even bother?  Bring a bomber and try to help out your team and one dinky plane makes one pass and you're dead.   Your gunners don't even bother shooting at them, half the time - too far away or in a dead spot.

 

The second is me combat landing that Ju 88 A-4.  Flaps shot out, but engines okay, so I decided to try and combat land it at the airstrip with no gear.  Just above stall speed - touched down as flat as I could and kaboom - tail flies off.  Tail flies off BEFORE anything else happens, btw.  It still repaired the plane, for all the good it did me, but it's still infuriating.  Just straight 200 Proof BS.

 

Devs go through all the trouble to make a new Rank IV Prem bomber and I just have to sit here and laugh - WHO is going to be foolish enough to buy and fly that?  It won't last 20 seconds at Tier IV.  My crews are all maxed out level 75's and Aced in their respective planes and even Tier I, II bombers rarely last long enough for me to give enough thought to going back for more bombs...

 

#2018.11.04 21.42.52.wrpl

 

#2018.11.04 21.21.33.wrpl

 

@Byrnjar

CLOG PLEASE!!

 

 

ON Topic:

I tried to knock off tail of 2 aircraft with bumpers (speed up on runway, before lift-off speed pull up (not easy to do).  Tails did not come off. 

 

Belly landings with large aircraft may be needed.

[HauptmannPingu 294]

How about the F7F, whenever I skid about trying to land one, and accidentally break either my left or right landing gear and fall on the ground with one wing hitting it, the tail also hits and comes clean off. I don't think that's too realistic either. 

[Pony51 6,572]

2 hours ago, HauptmannPingu said:

How about the F7F, whenever I skid about trying to land one, and accidentally break either my left or right landing gear and fall on the ground with one wing hitting it, the tail also hits and comes clean off. I don't think that's too realistic either. 

 

Better is landing gear up

[Ska_King_Felix 1,450]

5 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

Better is landing gear up

Have you tried the P-38 series?  It's quite easy to rip your tail off on takeoff.

[Pony51 6,572]

Have not,

but it will be VERY helpful if you provide images, CLOG, and replays of this happening!

[ziggi57 242]

Easy way to reproduce:

- take a me 262 for test flight

- fire the guns on the runway, plane sits on tail

- apply Elevator up

- tail breaks at 110-120 km/h, works every time

 

[ziggi57 242]

Works on the P38 too. Apply Elevator, Speed up and fire your guns. Plane will sit on its tail. At around 110-120 km/h you will lose both booms and Crash. Speed seems to be the same as for the Me 262.

 

 

[Gavin_Mactavish 943]

Thats extremely weird. The tails ALWAYS come off. Can you try for planes that have the main wheel in the front so the rear is exposed?. Also i edited my old post incase you missed.

Again, B29/TU-4s do not strike with reference loadout.

[_Dawger_ 789]

In the P-38 it is no longer possible to land with any of the main gear not down. Belly landing results in crash. Touching a wingtip during a perfectly executed landing with one main gear missing results in a crash. Touching the tail during takeoff rotation results in a crash. Touching the tail during landing results in crash.

[_Dawger_ 789]

Here is my CLOG, Replay and video of the P38 fragility

 

2018.11.07 09.02.26 p38 breaks easy.wrpl2018_11_07_08_55_57__14940.clog

 

 

[AgentJamesBond 96]

This issue is similar to these that I worked on earlier with rapitor,(in fact I am pretty sure that they are all the same issue) this happened again to me today so the issue and it is not fixed as of 11/8/2018. I will try to get that clog and replay. Tail either snaps like a carrot mid-rear fuselage or all parts just fly off at once and you are sent into a flat spin (highly unhistorical)

 

From my above post in verbage for the devs: "After Conclusion on Page 89, one can see that C4, the "Remainder" (Wings, Tail, and Aft Fuselage), They have the lowest vulnerability to a plane when hit than any other section of the plane. It is noted that they have the highest probability of being hit, but are the lowest in vulnerability to the plane. What I want to point out is the weakness of tails on planes in their current state in WT, not only the damage model inaccuracy of it snapping off unrealistically. The vulnerability is highest in the engine, fuel system, and forward fuselage(nose/pilot compartment and engine in single engine prop plane), for obvious reasons, but note how in game currently the tail snapps off, even though being the most robust part of the aircraft statistically."

-Source is included in the above report

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by AgentJamesBond

[Pony51 6,572]

Thank you very much for all your images and instructions.

That will make the Dev understand issues clearly (trust me, their Rusglish is hard to understand)

 

[Pony51 6,572]

Been a week, info in devs hands.

 

Archived.