Possible new matchmaker for "Axis" post-WWII techtree (AirRB). NATO vs WarsawPact idea.

[Ein79 5,752]

1. The background

German post-WWII air force techtree is already divided into two distinctive lines:

- East German / Warsaw Pact line represented by Mig15bis
- West German / NATO line represented by CL13 Sabre

Everything indicates that after the introduction of US and Russian supersonic jets also both East German and West German techtree lines will be continued and will receive new, more modern aircraft.

Is this division reflected in matchmaker? Unfortunately not.

Assuming that we are lucky enough not to be in full-mixed-xxxx-match, currently, German Mig15bis and CL13 Sabre are by default paired as one team, although in the real world these Cold War jets represent two (very)hostile blocks. What's more this Mig15 and CL13 combo is treated as "Axis" and fights with both NATO countries and Soviet Russia.

This issue already completely spoils the mood of historical confrontation while playing German 9.0 and it will increase with the addition of next aircraft as F104G, F-4 Phantom, Mig-19S, Mig21F, Su7B or some subsonics with missiles as MiG-17PF or Dornier Alpha Jet.

2. Solution

Let the matchmaker allocate German post-WWII aircraft to other nations according to the blocks they represent:

a) East-German aircraft to Russian teams
b) West German aircraft to US, British, Italian and French aircraft (NATO team).

3. Benefits

a) Mood of historical confrontation.
b) More consistent team structure.
c) Reducing the queue time for Russian aircraft of 8.0-10.0 BR thanks to support of team formation by East German airplanes.
d) The dispersal of CL13 in the NATO team will reduce their importance as the dominant aircraft of 9.0 BR.

 

Let's look how it could be according to team composition:
 

Warsaw Pact 9.0-10.0:

 

(Ru)

MiG-19PT

MiG-17

MiG-15bis

Mig-15ISH (prem)

 

 

(EastGer)

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

 

 

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

 

In addition, we can expect new supersonic WarsawPact aircraft in 1.89 patch (e.g.: Su7B, Mig21F)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Japan 9.0-10.0...Japan IRL is an US ally and has a partnership with NATO, but is not a member of NATO.

 

 

(japan)

T-2K (rather 11.0 in near future)

F-86F-40

F-86F-40 (prem)

F-86F-30

 

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Allies/NATO 9.0-10.0:

 

(US)

 

F-100D

F-86A-5

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86F-35 (prem)

F-100D

 

(UK)

 

Javelin

Hunter

 

(WestGer)

 

CL-13B

CL-13A

 

(FR)

 

Super Mystere

M.D.452 Mystere IIA

S.O. 4050A

S.O. 4050B
S.O. 4050 premium 
 

(Ita)

 

G.91YS

G.91R/1

G.91R/4 (prem)

What do you think about it?

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Ein79 5,752]

After 1.87 with Mig19S and Sabre Mk6 (2xAAM) we need it even more...

Not to mention Japan and T2 supersonic - do we really want such an "Axis" team??

Edited March 10, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

So typical 9.0 - 10.0 "axis" team after 1.87 will be T2-K+ MiG-19S + CL-13B + G.91Y + G.91R/4 + CL-13A + G.91R/1?

I don't want to be rude but that is complete one sided bs... This will be the absolute peak of bs of entire game. Were anyone thinking about it?

Right now "axis" teams have no weak spots because the have planes that cover it's flaws together. 8.0 - 9.0 rn is like:
- MiG-15bis - very good low speed acceleration, bad roll, even worse roll at high speed, medicore fixed armament, it has big sustain turn advantage over Sabres
- CL-13A Mk 5 - at the moment it's the best Sabre in aspects like top speed (slightly better than japanese and american F Sabres) and acceleration (the best accelerating one), personally I don't like .50 cals but I'm n00b so maybe someone like them - one time the can oneshot everything and break everything with 6 bullets but the other you can spray all ammo and only achieve damage of left aileron
- G.91R/1 - Mini Sabre with better low speed acceleration, weaker armament, but is more manouverable IMO in 500-800 km/h speed bracket
- G.91 pre-series - same are R/1 but more fragile and a bit slower
- Me 163/Ki-200 - flea with rocket engine, vertical monster, small, very manouverable
- Me 262C-2b (I won't include C-1a because no one is using it) - still very manouverable, another vertical monster (in first phase of battle mostly, but it depends of a player)

My point is that mix of this planes has nearly no weak points. Flaws of some planes are supplement by the others.  Even 9.0 alone has most of the flaws covered by MiG-15, CL-13 and G.91R/1 together. Even right now IV and V tier of Germany and Japan + V tier Italian is spammed like never - 2/3 of a players in queue are from these 3 nations and it will be even worse IMO

According to that, I'm afraid that after the 1.87 release we will have only one big mix of nations in 9.0 - 10.0 bracket - all vs all
 
 

[Sir_Lawrence42 1,040]

/signed

The old MIG 15 BIS extra que with russia worked - i dont see any reason why it not should change to the old system.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sir_Lawrence42

[Ein79 5,752]

Seems it's worth to make solid suggestion in suggestion section..

[druidh58 656]

I generally agree with the idea but it will require complete separation between WW2 and post-war aircraft, something which the current BR system does not permit. I'd certainly be happy not to see Whirlwinds taking on AD4s...

[Ska_King_Felix 1,450]

Let me get this straight - so top-tier teams in 1.87 will be something like this?
Allies/NATO:

F-100D

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86A-5

 

T-2K

F-86F-40

F-86F-30

 

Javelin
Hunter

G.91YS
G.91R/1

 

CL-13B
CL-13A

 

Super Mystere

S.O. 4050

 

Warsaw Pact:
MiG-19PT
MiG-17

MiG-15bis

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

It seems one-sided in favor of Allies, but I'm still for it.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Ska_King_Felix

[Ein79 5,752]

22 hours ago, druidh58 said:

I generally agree with the idea but it will require complete separation between WW2 and post-war aircraft, something which the current BR system does not permit. I'd certainly be happy not to see Whirlwinds taking on AD4s...

 

What about making an iron curtain between 8.0-9.0? The solution is not perfect, but you need to set a borderline somewhere.

It means: no uptier for any 8.0 & no downtier for any 9.0...no more mix of Me262C and CL-13 Sabre.  

 

Let's assume that 8.0 is a top tier and final rank for WWII matchmaker and 9.0 is Tier One / Rank One of NATO vs WarsawPact matchmaker.

Any transfer between these matchmakers would be impossible - we could possibly introduce some exceptions, but I'd rather avoid it.

 

I only have concerns that 7.0 will suffer too much from it.
So alternatively hybrid solution: both 8.0 and 9.0 will continue to participate in two matchmaker types (WWII and NATOvsWarsawPact), but starting at 10.0. only pure ColdWar matchmaker.

 

 

21 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Let me get this straight - so top-tier teams in 1.87 will be something like this?

[...]
It seems one-sided in favor of Allies, but I'm still for it.

One-sided in terms of diversity, but not in terms of strength / effectiveness.

 

Let's look at it again:
 

Warsaw Pact 9.0-10.0:

 

(Ru)

MiG-19PT

MiG-17

MiG-15bis

Mig-15ISH (prem)

 

 

(EastGer)

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

 

 

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

 

In addition, we can expect new supersonic WarsawPact aircraft in 1.89 patch (e.g.: Su7B, Mig21F)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Japan 9.0-10.0...Japan IRL is an US ally and has a partnership with NATO, but is not a member of NATO.

 

 

(japan)

T-2K

F-86F-40

F-86F-40 (prem)

F-86F-30

 

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Allies/NATO 9.0-10.0:

 

(US)

 

F-100D

F-86A-5

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86F-35 (prem)

F-100D

 

(UK)

 

Javelin

Hunter

 

(WestGer)

 

CL-13B

CL-13A

 

(FR)

 

Super Mystere

M.D.452 Mystere IIA

S.O. 4050A

S.O. 4050B
S.O. 4050 premium 
 

(Ita)

 

G.91YS

G.91R/1

G.91R/4 (prem)

 

 

 

What do you think about it? I would like to work it out before creating an official suggestion, every note is welcome.

 

 

[druidh58 656]

1 hour ago, Einherjer1979 said:

What about making an iron curtain between 8.0-9.0? The solution is not perfect, but you need to set a borderline somewhere.

It means: no uptier for any 8.0 & no downtier for any 9.0...no more mix of Me262C and CL-13 Sabre.  

 

Let's assume that 8.0 is a top tier and final rank for WWII matchmaker and 9.0 is Tier One / Rank One of NATO vs WarsawPact matchmaker.

Any transfer between these matchmakers would be impossible - we could possibly introduce some exceptions, but I'd rather avoid it.

 

I only have concerns that 7.0 will suffer too much from it.
So alternatively hybrid solution: both 8.0 and 9.0 will continue to participate in two matchmaker types (WWII and NATOvsWarsawPact), but starting at 10.0. only pure ColdWar matchmaker.

Yeah - the later axis prototypes that never appeared in combat end up in a funny place where they are likely too strong for their allied equivalents but not strong enough for true Cold War era matches. Maybe some form of hybrid solution is required. I'd still rather not see AD4s etc in WWII battles but that's just a personal thing regarding realism rather than that some of them are too OP.

[marygray 331]

i like that idea, germany was seperated into west/east why not reflect it in the MM

[Flying_Dodo 950]

I would support this absolutely.

[Foche 888]

and gaijin should try the Sub faction system during April fools event , so this could be tested faster !

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

10 hours ago, Foche said:

and gaijin should try the Sub faction system during April fools event , so this could be tested faster !

They had two weeks to test it on Dev server. They didn't so they don't introduce that no matter what.

 

That will be second most expectate feature after RB EC and it will never happen.

[Trotrodor 2,670]

+1, for reduce match making time you could also add a EU pack with all EU faction, but fractionned depending on match making need :

France and West Germany

France, West Germany and Italy

France, West Germany, Italy and UK

[SOLO_WING 41]

How about making a Korea Tier with just F86A5s and MiG15s, they really dont belong where they currently are

[mdrpl7 185]

This is what this game needs right now. Not mixed arcadey unhistorical battles but the real solution. This + t2 counterparts would be awesome

[LobsterCoat 325]

I would fully support this. 

[Ein79 5,752]

I made official suggestion in proper section: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/448175-possible-new-matchmaker-for-axis-post-wwii-techtree-airrb-nato-vs-warsawpact-idea/

Unfortunately:
"Your topic (Possible new matchmaker for "Axis" post-WWII techtree (AirRB). NATO vs WarsawPact idea.) has been closed by forum staff"

See also:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/profile/254392-cokespray/&status=463875&type=status
 

 

[Ein79 5,752]

Anybody still likes this Japan-thunder-top-tier-mess? Do you really feel being "Axis" while flying G91Y, Mig19S or CL13B??

 

T2 spam vs T2 spam with the rest as poor support planes? 

Boring, disgustingly unhistorical, and "balanced" only for one vehicle. 

Is this the future of top-tier matchmaker?

[LuizBarros99 436]

On 21/03/2019 at 10:26, SOLO_WING said:

How about making a Korea Tier with just F86A5s and MiG15s, they really dont belong where they currently are

It would include this, eventually. But the thing that is being suggested HERE is basically to have the "Soviet portion of Germany" fight on the USSR side, and the "Western portion of Germany" fight on the NATO side.

 

Now what I mean by that this would be eventually included is that nobody stands this current BR compression that we have right now, and as such we are (likely, and hopefully) going to see the T-2, and most Tier 6 jets moved up in BR. Now, IF this would make F-86A-5s unable to see MiG-17s I have no idea, because that is simply up to all mighty Gaijilla to decide. But hopefully they make it decompressed.

[Ein79 5,752]

On 01/04/2019 at 22:57, Einherjer1979 said:

I made official suggestion in proper section: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/448175-possible-new-matchmaker-for-axis-post-wwii-techtree-airrb-nato-vs-warsawpact-idea/

Unfortunately:
"Your topic (Possible new matchmaker for "Axis" post-WWII techtree (AirRB). NATO vs WarsawPact idea.) has been closed by forum staff"

@Stona , @Smin1080p

Don't you think that after adding China, this idea screams for reconsideration?

And in the same way as WarsawPact fraction of German tech tree should be assigned to Russia in Match-Maker, the continental / communist China  fraction of Chinese tech tree should be the enemy of NATO, not "Allies".

Axis vs Allies mindset and such matchmaker setup is really hilarious when we already have F100, F4 Phantom, Mig19, Mig21..and few other jets used in 60's up to late 70's.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[MaterialWharf3 454]

I like the idea but I don't completely agree with the thing where Japan is a swing nation. It wouldn't make much sense to see F-4EJs fighting alongside J-7s and MiG-21s against F-4Es and FGRs. I just couldn't see Japan facing off with the US in a historical-esque match maker.