french m4 in ww2 Add 1 or 2 M4 Sherman that the French actually used during WW2

[No_Camping 1,804]

Hello, fellow tankers,

 

The French armored division, in particular, the "Force L"/2nd Division Blindée (DB) of Général Leclerc, integrated in the US army (and in the British Army in Africa, in 1941-43), used more than 800 M4 Sherman during WW2. The awesome website www.chars-francais.net (the most comprehensive reference on French tanks on the Web) lists the 850+ known M4 Shermans in the French DB, with photographs for most of them (sometimes also after their destruction), and other invaluable info when available (official registration number, name and fate of the crew, excerpts of the commandant diary, or moving testimonies from the crew...). See also the list of the 300+ known M10 in the French DB.

"French" M4 Shermans from the 12^e RC, with the M4A2 CEVENNES in the front.

Currently, the French tech tree includes 2 American M4 Shermans: an early M4A1 and the M4A3E2 ("Jumbo"), in addition to the post-war French exports M4A1 (FL10) and M4A4 (SA50). However, the French DB had only a very few of these early M4A1 (see below; no original model; only a few repaired and reconditioned tanks) and only one known M4A3E2 (the Lt FALGAYRAC, serving in the 2^e RC; see below)!

 

    One of the very few early M4A1 in the French DB                 The only known M4A3E2 (Jumbo) in the French DB  

      (The BOURG LA REINE II, serving in the 12^e RC)                       (The Lt FALGAYRAC, serving in the 2^e RCA)

Hence, these two tanks are not at all representative of the actual M4 Shermans used by the French DB, and one could certainly argue that it would be justified to include at least one more American M4 in the French tree, not only for plain historical reasons but also to add a tank at the very popular 3.7-4.0 and/or 5.0-5.7 BR ranges where vehicles are scarce in the French tree (only 2 in both BR ranges).

This page lists the obvious candidates which I will separate in two BR ranges (I use the BR in AB):

• M4A2 (75) at BR 4.0; M4A3 (75)W not in the game (but the one with the 76mm gun is) but could be at BR 4.0 or 4.3; M4A3 (105) at BR 3.0; M4A4 (75) not in the game (but this the same hull as the post-war M4A4 (SA50) which were fitted with the SA50 gun using the surviving tanks) but could be at BR 3.7.
  The M4A2 and M4A4 (the later replaced progressively by M4A1 (76)W in the French DB); see below) were the most commonly used tanks by the French DB. Note that no M4 with the 75mm gun (at BR 3.7 in the US tree) was used by the French DB (except for only one with composite armor), only a few M4 with the 105mm gun (not in the game).

 

The restored M4A4 AUSTERLITZ (historical notes in French) kept exactly where it was destroyed by a Panzerfaust (the 2nd impact can be seen on its front left side)

 

 

• M4A1 (76)W at BR 5.0 (replacing progressively the older M4A4 in the French DB); M4A3 (76)W at BR 5.3 (appearing in 1944 in the French DB; they were actually the first M4A3 (76)W to see combat). The French DB used around 50 M4A1 and M4A3 with the 76mm gun, but did not use any known M4A3E2 (76)W or M4A2 (76)W.

 

Yes, the French were the first to call one of "their" tanks "Leopard II"!

 

 

Suggestion: add 1 or preferably 2 American M4 Sherman (including or not a Premium tank) actually used by the French DB during WW2 in the first and/or second BR range mentioned above. Adding 1 or 2 model(s) already present in the US tech tree would necessitate very little work. If a premium tank is added, it could be customized after one of the many tanks featured in the list of 800+ M4 used by the French DB during WW2.
My personal choice would be to add the M4A2 (the most common tank in the French DB) at BR 4.0 and the M4A1 (76)W at BR 5.0 (none Premium) to give a more "historical" touch to the French tree and to fill the two BR ranges 3.7-4.0 (very popular) and 5.0-5.3 which currently have very few vehicles.

 

Final note: Here is the complete list of (mostly American) tanks used by the French armored division between 1941 and 1945, including stolen vehicles, with many photographs (the historical notes are in French).

 

Let me also mention here the absolute reference on the M4 Sherman on the web... Written by a Frenchman (in English)!

 

 

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

In particular, this page offers valuable information on the French M4 Shermans, including a complete list (with many info) of around 880 of them (at the bottom of the page)
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/french_shermans/french_shermans.html

 

See also:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France.html

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by No_Camping

[blaZzinG_FurY@psn 298]

Open for discussion. And although you did include sources that have plenty of pictures, it would be great if you could include some pictures of the tanks directly your post.

[No_Camping 1,804]

3 hours ago, *blaZzinG_FurY said:

Open for discussion. And although you did include sources that have plenty of pictures, it would be great if you could include some pictures of the tanks directly your post.

Thanks! I updated my post accordingly, also mentioning the most common versions of the M4 Sherman and the ones not or very rarely used by the French DB (despite being in the US tree).

Edited March 5, 2019 by No_Camping

[lllmaxlvllll@psn 1,039]

+1 France could use some more tanks in the lower tiers. Especially a 5.0 sherman.

[WiseMinerva 454]

+1 support

 

Personally I have no problem with foreign vehicles being used by other nations as long as they actually used them. The low tiers certainly could use some filling.

[chouettepatate 31]

+1

[Wa11etWarri0r 2]

+1

[Valcour 1,139]

+1.  I whole heartedly agree.  The gaps in the French tree could easily be filled by adding some of the US/UK lend-lease vehicles used by the Free French.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Valcour

[No_Camping 1,804]

Here is the complete list of (mostly American) tanks used by the French armored division between 1941 and 1945:
https://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/liste-chronologique/de-1940-a-1945

 

[Valcour 1,139]

Gaijin would not even have to create new models for most of them.  Just plop them into place.

[Soviet_Man86 12]

+1 it is very good idea.

[Machin_10 5]

+1

[Jarms 1,555]

Firstly, let me just say I would only start adding more Allied vehicles into the French tree if they only get teamed up with the US and UK. Having numerous Allied tanks fight each other in RB is daunting enough, adding more will just make it more confusing.

 

M4 (105):

 

This could be cool. Very different variant than the Sherman M4A3 (105) HVSS in-game. This is an M4 (105) so firstly it has a completely different engine and this machine in particular has no HVSS.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

M4A1 (75):

 

This would be a little different to the one in the US tree as it has the additional quick-fix applique.

 

Spoiler

 

 

This is the "increase thickness" modification he is talking about, it is a cast-in turret + quick-fix applique.

 

 

M4A1 (76)w:

 

I don't really see much point in adding these, as they are no different than the US one in-game (unless Gaijin give the US one HVSS).

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

M4A2 (75):

 

This would be a little different to the one in the US tree as it's the small hatch model with the quick-fix applique.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

M4A3 (75)w:

 

This is a vehicle the US also needs, though Gaijin could give the US the HVSS model.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

M4A3 (76)w VVSS:

 

This would be a little different to the one in the US tree as it doesn't have HVSS.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

M4A3 (105) VVSS:

 

This would be a little different to the one in the US tree as it doesn't have HVSS.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

M4A4 (75):

 

This is a vehicle the UK also needs, it could come with or without the additional quick-fix applique.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Sources:

- www.theshermantank.com

- the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/french_shermans/french_shermans.html

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jarms

[No_Camping 1,804]

@Jarms Thanks for your input!
 

First, I think it would be fair to mention the sources you used, considering that these guys have devoted a huge amount of work about the M4 Sherman, and in passing, the French M4 Shermans: http://the.shadock.free.fr/

Among other invaluable documents, this website includes The Sherman Minutia Website, which probably contains most technical info that an M4 lover could dream about. A long subsection of this "Minutia" is devoted to the French M4, from which you provided some excerpts above. The only thing that I regret in this subsection is that the authors did not fully exploit (and did not explicitly cite) the extensive photographic and historical data from www.chars-francais.net. and in particular their list of 800+ known French M4 Sherman with many info concerning most of them.

 

3 hours ago, Jarms said:

Firstly, let me just say I would only start adding more Allied vehicles into the French tree if they only get teamed up with the US and UK. Having numerous Allied tanks fight each other in RB is daunting enough, adding more will just make it more confusing.

I think that the "historical motivation" and the lack of French tanks in the very popular 3.7-4.0 BR range (only 2), and in the range 5.0-5.7 (only 2... now that the Jumbo is at BR 5.0) mentioned in my original post provide strong arguments in favor of adding 1 or 2 M4 Sherman actually used by the French DB. The point you raise is part of a wider discussion which I fear is really off-topic here (queue time problems/mixed games; "realistic" nation matching, which does not really exist at many BR - it's just a game; or even the provocative proposal to stop systematically pairing US and UK...).

 

3 hours ago, Jarms said:

M4A1 (76)w:

I don't really see much point in adding these, as they are no different than the US one in-game (unless Gaijin give the US one HVSS).

 

It is a bit paradoxical that you reject the only additional tank which would definitely not generate any extra work for the devs... Yet, this tank addresses the main motivations of my post perfectly (for the BR 5.0-5.3 range).

 

3 hours ago, Jarms said:

M4A2 (75):

 

This would be a little different to the one in the US tree as it's the small hatch model with the quick-fix applique. 

Well, if you look carefully at the source you used and the photographs on www.chars-francais.net (it is certainly painful to click on each link to search for an M4A2, but since more than 1/3 of French M4 Sherman were M4A2, it's not that bad), you will certainly discover "all sorts" of M4A2, including some without the small hatches.

 

3 hours ago, Jarms said:

M4A4 (75):

 

This is a vehicle the UK also needs, it could come with or without the additional quick-fix applique. 

Clearly, but it would necessitate a nonnegligible extra work from the devs. But it would be probably "historically" well-justified to add it since the M4A4 was the second most produced M4 Sherman (15% of all M4 produced), just behind the M4A2(75)... and it is not in the game! Maybe that would be a good candidate to be added to the UK/French tree at a BR 3.7 in AB (this tank should be inferior in-game to the M4A2 at BR 4.0)
 

3 hours ago, Jarms said:

M4A3 (75)w:

 

This is a vehicle the US also needs, though Gaijin could give the US the HVSS model. 

Yes, that would be an intriguing addition to the US tech tree (and why not to the French one?).

 

Cheers

Edited March 5, 2019 by No_Camping

[Milocat 4,842]

+1.  France used a lot of Shermans and so should get more to help fill their mid-tier tree.  

[Jarms 1,555]

13 hours ago, No_Camping said:

@Jarms Thanks for your input!

 

I think that the "historical motivation" and the lack of French tanks in the very popular 3.7-4.0 BR range (only 2), and in the range 5.0-5.7 (only 2... now that the Jumbo is at BR 5.0) mentioned in my original post provide strong arguments in favor of adding 1 or 2 M4 Sherman actually used by the French DB. The point you raise is part of a wider discussion which I fear is really off-topic here (queue time problems/mixed games; "realistic" nation matching, which does not really exist at many BR - it's just a game; or even the provocative proposal to stop systematically pairing US and UK...).

 

It is a bit paradoxical that you reject the only additional tank which would definitely not generate any extra work for the devs... Yet, this tank addresses the main motivations of my post perfectly (for the BR 5.0-5.3 range).

 

Well, if you look carefully at the source you used and the photographs on www.chars-francais.net (it is certainly painful to click on each link to search for an M4A2, but since more than 1/3 of French M4 Sherman were M4A2, it's not that bad), you will certainly discover "all sorts" of M4A2, including some without the small hatches.

 

Clearly, but it would necessitate a nonnegligible extra work from the devs. But it would be probably "historically" well-justified to add it since the M4A4 was the second most produced M4 Sherman (15% of all M4 produced), just behind the M4A2(75)... and it is not in the game! Maybe that would be a good candidate to be added to the UK/French tree at a BR 3.7 in AB (this tank should be inferior in-game to the M4A2 at BR 4.0)
 

Yes, that would be an intriguing addition to the US tech tree (and why not to the French one?).

 

 

I would argue that matchmaking is an integral part to consider when adding any new vehicles. But as you said, that’s neither here or there.

 

I’m against 100% copy paste vehicles, that’s why I said if Gaijin gave the US version HVSS then I’d be fine with the French getting an M4A1 (76)w VVSS. 

 

I’m completely aware that the French also had large hatch M4A2 Shermans, again, I want to avoid 100% copy paste. An early M4A2 (75) could go at 3.7 (the US M4A2 75 should go back up to 4.0).

 

The M4A3 (75)w I was suggesting for both trees, the French and the US. Again, I would give the US the HVSS model and the French the VVSS model. 

 

Isn’t modelling outsourced and not done in-house?

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jarms

[onemax9000 1,242]

+1 i see no problems with it.

[No_Camping 1,804]

On 06/03/2019 at 04:57, Jarms said:

Isn’t modelling outsourced and not done in-house?

I don't know for sure. But in any case, any new tank would still cost time and money.

[No_Camping 1,804]

I have updated this topic by including a poll.

[oRyx 28]

more jumbos? Yes Please!

[No_Camping 1,804]

On 09/03/2019 at 15:32, oRyx said:

more jumbos? Yes Please! 

Nope sorry. Only one Jumbo the French DB during WW2 and none with the 76mm gun...

[Valcour 1,139]

On 05/03/2019 at 21:57, Jarms said:

 

 

I’m against 100% copy paste vehicles, that’s why I said if Gaijin gave the US version HVSS then I’d be fine with the French getting an M4A1 (76)w VVSS. 

 

 

If there is documented usage by more than one country I don't see why that should be a barrier to inclusion.

[ForeverAloneRage 130]

French M4A2 with Zimmerit for testing purposes and M4A1 "Strasbourg" with .50cal in place of its main gun

Spoiler

 

[Jarms 1,555]

On 13/03/2019 at 07:41, Valcour said:

If there is documented usage by more than one country I don't see why that should be a barrier to inclusion.

 

My main issue is 100% copy paste vehicles, I don’t mind additional Sherman’s being added. I’d just like them to be, even slightly, different. Also giving the US the “best” Sherman’s means players would still be incentivised to play the US tree. 

 

For example: 

- There’s already 3 M4A1 75mm Sherman’s across 3 nations, each of the vehicles are essentially identical. The only differences are cosmetic and that the British version gets APCR.

 

- There’s already 2 large hatch M4A2 75mm Sherman’s across 2 nations. Again, essentially identical. There’s no small hatch M4A2 75mm Sherman’s so I would love for the French to get one of those, it’s at least different. 

 

- There’s already 2 large hatch M4A2 76mm Sherman’s. With the same reasons as mentioned above. 

 

- There’s already 2 large hatch M4A3 76mm HVSS Sherman’s. With the same reasons as above. 

 

This isn’t a presidence that should continue. As I said, I’m all for more Sherman’s just make them slightly different.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Jarms

[kamikazi21358 998]

+1, but could an option for ‘yes to them all’?  If they were used by France, they should be represented.