Balance improvements in Aircraft Realistic Battles

[Stavroforos 15,367]

2 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

But this has nothing to do with the performance of CL13 alone, which is marginally better than F86F, nor with CL13s weapon, which is worse than 4x20 mm revolver cannons of F86F2 or 4x30 mm Aden of Hunter.

Meanwhile, now we have a T2 that absolutely outclasses others in terms of speed (200-300 km/h faster) and acceleration + it has better weapon and best radar in game. 

T2 should be at least whole BR higher than Mig19 or F100.

 

 

And yet, the CL-13 was still clubbing. I guess it's because the Luftwaffe has all the good players tho, no need to balance a plane with a 78% win rate if it has an iron cross. 

[Ein79 5,752]

12 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

And yet, the CL-13 was still clubbing. I guess it's because the Luftwaffe has all the good players tho, no need to balance a plane with a 78% win rate if it has an iron cross. 

 

If you disagree with me, please point specific parameters of CL13 performance in numbers, which made it so "so so OP". Hint - save your time, you will not find such.

 

The problem is matchmaker, which  provides bad for Allies teams composition, not the CL13 it self, which is completely ordinary as for its BR.
 

What was and is needed is NATO vs WarsawPact matchmaker, not any "nerf" for German top tier aircraft.
 

And regardless of the matter mentioned above - T2 is disgustingly OP and should be uptiered at least to 11.0, it simply doesn't belong to the EarlyColdWar era and spoils gameplay of all other planes.



 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

24 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

 

If you disagree with me, please point specific parameters of CL13 performance in numbers, which made it so "so so OP". Hint - save your time, you will not find such.

 

The problem is matchmaker, which  provides bad for Allies teams composition, not the CL13 it self, which is completely ordinary as for its BR.
 

What was and is needed is NATO vs WarsawPact matchmaker, not any "nerf" for German top tier aircraft.
 

And regardless of the matter mentioned above - T2 is disgustingly OP and should be uptiered at least to 11.0, it simply doesn't belong to the EarlyColdWar era and spoils gameplay of all other planes.



 

CL-13 has a higher winrate than T-2. 

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

Stats are not everything, @Stavroforos. 

 

Much of the CL’s winrate was built up from before supersonics came into the picture. 

 

What the rest of us are arguing is raw plane performance. 

 

The T-2K has a gatling cannon with such an insane fire rate that its effectively a laser beam. It has radar-guided guns to give it a lead indicator comparable to if not better than Arcade. It has the best air to air missiles in the game. And it’s 300kph faster than any other top tier jet. This thing is better enough that it should be 11.3 where this new Axis vs Axis matchmaker causes it to only fight itself, with no ability for anything else to be uptiered to meet it.

 

With the way jet combat works and focuses so heavily on speed over everything else, the old-school “uptier-downtier” system DOES. NOT. WORK. Rather you see a “club or get clubbed” situation which is a far cry from balance in either case.

 

Since a BR spread update to reduce spread to 0.7/allow players to pick their own BR spread at the cost of personal queue times or an update to remove the 4-man upper limit on top BR things in any given match is doubtful at best, all that can be done is splitting jets into layered “BR Islands” that are exactly 1.3 apart from both the one above and the one below. Exactly what fits in each island is uncertain, and the rocket planes in particular are even more uncertain since the only reason they “club” is due to horribly small maps enabling zergrushing and broken objective structure favoring TDM over anything else.

 

Then, we still need Markerless RB EC to soak up the more objective-oriented planes that probably will never be actually good in normal Air RB. A B-57A/B, Canberra/Cannonberra, IL-28, IL-28Sh, Tu-4, Tu-14T, Vautour IIB/IIA, Ar-234B/C, and a good few others will simply never fit in a mode centered around quick deathmatches.

[Stavroforos 15,367]

50 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Stats are not everything, @Stavroforos. 

 

Much of the CL’s winrate was built up from before supersonics came into the picture. 

 

What the rest of us are arguing is raw plane performance. 

 

The T-2K has a gatling cannon with such an insane fire rate that its effectively a laser beam. It has radar-guided guns to give it a lead indicator comparable to if not better than Arcade. It has the best air to air missiles in the game. And it’s 300kph faster than any other top tier jet. This thing is better enough that it should be 11.3 where this new Axis vs Axis matchmaker causes it to only fight itself, with no ability for anything else to be uptiered to meet it.

 

With the way jet combat works and focuses so heavily on speed over everything else, the old-school “uptier-downtier” system DOES. NOT. WORK. Rather you see a “club or get clubbed” situation which is a far cry from balance in either case.

 

Since a BR spread update to reduce spread to 0.7/allow players to pick their own BR spread at the cost of personal queue times or an update to remove the 4-man upper limit on top BR things in any given match is doubtful at best, all that can be done is splitting jets into layered “BR Islands” that are exactly 1.3 apart from both the one above and the one below. Exactly what fits in each island is uncertain, and the rocket planes in particular are even more uncertain since the only reason they “club” is due to horribly small maps enabling zergrushing and broken objective structure favoring TDM over anything else.

 

Then, we still need Markerless RB EC to soak up the more objective-oriented planes that probably will never be actually good in normal Air RB. A B-57A/B, Canberra/Cannonberra, IL-28, IL-28Sh, Tu-4, Tu-14T, Vautour IIB/IIA, Ar-234B/C, and a good few others will simply never fit in a mode centered around quick deathmatches.

I'm not saying the T-2 isn't too low in BR or that it even belongs in the game, but that it's rich that Axis are complaining now even though they been clubbing with the CL-13 for as long as it's been out. 

[SuperDuperOtter 655]

7 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

I'm not saying the T-2 isn't too low in BR or that it even belongs in the game, but that it's rich that Axis are complaining now even though they been clubbing with the CL-13 for as long as it's been out. 

 

Sweat of you how you draw a parallel between an aircraft a few km/s faster than other aircrafts and an aircraft a couple hundreds km/s faster than anything else.

 

But hey ! who am I ? i don't even fly jets !

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

3 hours ago, Stavroforos said:

CL-13 has a higher winrate than T-2. 

So what? The biggest advantage of CL-13A over F Sabres is IMHO acceleration (it's much better due to higher T/W ratio given by Orenda engine). High WR was made by "Axis" teams at 9.0 in which you had CL-13A, DDR MiG-15bis and rising sun F-40. Every plane was good at different thing and as team they didn't have many weak spots. On them other hand you had US/UK teams with F Sabres, much worse A Sabres, rocket loaded Furies, Venoms and maybe one Hunter + 4 Vautours (IIB at worst).

Edited April 5, 2019 by Diabel_Z_Piekla

[Stavroforos 15,367]

Just now, Diabel_Z_Piekla said:

So what? The biggest advantage of CL-13A over F Sabres is IMHO acceleration (it's much better due to higher T/W ratio given by Orenda engine). High WR was made by "Axis" teams at 9.0 in which you had CL-13A, DDR MiG-15bis and rising sun F-40. Every plane was good at different thing and as team they didn't have many weak spots. On them other hand you had US/UK teams with F Sabres, much worse A Sabres, rocket loaded Furies, Venoms and maybe one Hunter. 

Yeah, and Axis teams were mopping the ground with Allied ones. But I suppose in that case it's not a problem with the game, just a "get gud allies" problem. 

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

17 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Yeah, and Axis teams were mopping the ground with Allied ones. But I suppose in that case it's not a problem with the game, just a "get gud allies" problem. 

It's rather a problem with planes that given nation (nations) have + teams composition by nation made by MM.

 

In GER+ITA+japan team at pre-supersonic 9.0 there were no nad plane - all were decent (G.91 R/1, DDR MiG-15bis) to very good but (CL, F-40 Sabre) at the same time US+UK+FR had planes (at 9.0) from bad (mostly ovetiered like Mysteres, Venom) through decent but ovetiered (A-5 Sabre), decent but not properly used and ovetiered (TT Fury), good (F Sabres with .50 cals) to very good (F-2 Sabre and Hunter) and bombers. 

 

I don't write about USSR planes because I don't have any expierence with their 9.0 jets and teams.

 

If you have f.e 7 vs 7 in "axis" team you have 3x CL-13A, 2x MiG-15bis, one F-40 and one G.91 R/1 and in "Allies" team you have 1 F-2, 1 Hunter, 2 FJ-4B loaded with rockets, 1 Venom and 2 bombers... There is no f...reacking way that "allied" team win that.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Diabel_Z_Piekla

[Ein79 5,752]

4 hours ago, Stavroforos said:

CL-13 has a higher winrate than T-2. 

 

Winrate is a collective achievement, which depends on the team's composition, teamwork, players experience, skill and mindset.

 

While I asked you about CL-13As performance parameters which is an inherent feature of given vehicle flightmodel in the game.

 

My question was rhetorical - because everyone who has honestly tested and analyzed CL-13A performance as such in the game, knows that it is completely ordinary 9.0 Sabre. 7 km/h faster; 5 sec better accelerating to 1000 km/h; you can't notice the difference in rolling; almost same climbrate. Also considering the aircraft's weaponry CL-13A is completely ordinary 9.0 Sabre. There is only one extraordinary armed 9.0 Sabre: F86F2 with 4x20 mm rapid firing cannons.

Back to winrate - as I said it is a collective achievement, which depends on the team's composition, teamwork, players experience, skill and mindset.

And this is the area where the Allied teams have been suffering for a long time. Team's composition is "sabotaged" by matchmaker, which creates a team from the queue of:

- not only top-dog fighters, but also bombers, attackers and non-meta fighters which are numerously represented in allied techtrees

- aircraft from 4 different countries with different aircraf lines, and this diversity isn't helpful most the time
 

At the same time, "Axis" 9.0 consists only of fighters with similar or complementary properties: CL13, F86F, G91, Mig15bis. Strong, consistent, 100% fighter teams with air-hunter mindset.

 

Add to this the fact that US players are quite easily tempted by groundpounding opportunities and waste fighters to kill pillboxes...and you have your winrate.

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

18 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Back to winrate - as I said it is a collective achievement, which depends on the team's composition, teamwork, players experience, skill and mindset.

And this is the area where the Allied teams have been suffering for a long time. Team's composition is "sabotaged" by matchmaker, which creates a team from the queue of:

- not only top-dog fighters, but also bombers, attackers and non-meta fighters which are numerously represented in allied techtrees

- aircraft from 4 different countries with different aircraf lines, and this diversity isn't helpful most the time
 

At the same time, "Axis" 9.0 consists only of fighters with similar or complementary properties: CL13, F86F, G91, Mig15bis. Strong, consistent, 100% fighter teams with air-hunter mindset.

 

Add to this the fact that US players are quite easily tempted by groundpounding opportunities and waste fighters to kill pillboxes...and you have your winrate.

Only Markerless RB EC or massive across the board changes to RB Air’s objective structure are bound to address this difference. 

 

Due to unfair hiking of spawn costs for all planes in 8.0+ Ground Forces, all the “non-meta” planes have literally nowhere else to go except clog up the queues on one side. 

 

This issue compounded strongly with the addition of the T-2K. 

 

Both problems need immediate attention. The Axis vs Axis band-aid works to some extent at the moment but this wound is still bleeding badly and no amount of band-aids will fix it. 

 

1.89 needs to be a patch dedicated to improving objective structure for the otherwise forgotten Air RB mode, or it needs to release 64-player Markerless RB EC to the RB playerbase once and for all to all BRs. Queues were packed full of people when it was last available. 

 

Adding new stuff fixes nothing or at best fixes very, very little. 

[SpriGgy 992]

1 hour ago, Diabel_Z_Piekla said:

It's rather a problem with planes that given nation (nations) have + teams composition by nation made by MM.

 

In GER+ITA+japan team at pre-supersonic 9.0 there were no nad plane - all were decent (G.91 R/1, DDR MiG-15bis) to very good but (CL, F-40 Sabre) at the same time US+UK+FR had planes (at 9.0) from bad (mostly ovetiered like Mysteres, Venom) through decent but ovetiered (A-5 Sabre), decent but not properly used and ovetiered (TT Fury), good (F Sabres with .50 cals) to very good (F-2 Sabre and Hunter) and bombers. 

 

I don't write about USSR planes because I don't have any expierence with their 9.0 jets and teams.

 

If you have f.e 7 vs 7 in "axis" team you have 3x CL-13A, 2x MiG-15bis, one F-40 and one G.91 R/1 and in "Allies" team you have 1 F-2, 1 Hunter, 2 FJ-4B loaded with rockets, 1 Venom and 2 bombers... There is no f...reacking way that "allied" team win that.

 

Finally someone gets it. So many stupid comments from clueless players here, unable to see the whole and always pointing only at one thing and cursing this alone. ^^

 

Air RB could easily be fixed, but it needs several steps for that, needing almost a whole Master Patch for that alone.

1. Bombers spawn later than Fighters, giving your own fighters a chance to make the way free and give own Bombers cover.

 

2. Give bombers back a reasonable damage modell, and get rid of useless cannon sparking like we have again and again with hispano cannons and co.

 

3. Remove auto Win Loss from Maps, where AI Units do more ticket bleed than the actual teams oO

 

4. Get rid of one sided Map advantages, like one team has air spawn the other not, or one team as airfields and the other one has big Bombers and only Carriers. WTF a logic is that^^

 

5. Allow presets in Air RB, so you can select your Plane at the start of the Battle like in Simulator and allow switching Planes on airfield after repair. This would give meaning to ground Attackers and Bombers in the Late Game, that are currently only a nuisance.

 

6. Rework the Locations of Ground Targets on Maps, where they all are located at one spot or in one line and or right to the enemy airfield. Making it impossible for the enemy Team to attack them without getting directly intercepted. Sometimes only one Team has all Targets in one spot while the other team has targets all around the map.

 

7. Prevent Bomber + Attacker Teams fighting almost purely Fighter Teams

 

8. bring back fair Matchmaking also in high tier. It cant be that one team has mostly uptiered players and gets massacred by the enemy team where most of the team are happy about free kills cause they were all downtiered. For example: Axis 8.0s and 7.7 against Allied Teams mostly using 7.3 and 7.0 jets.

 

9. Give every Team 2 airfields, if one gets destroyed you loose a big chunk of tickets but you dont instantly loose the match, and you cant use that airfield anymore, Instead you have to switch to a backup airfield further back in your territory.

 

10. adjust several BRs and repair costs for planes that received huge flight model changes or for planes that just get ignored by gaijin for years, cause no one plays them, and so they keep their bad BR as they generated no stats. And Gaijin only believes in stats as we know. But vehicles that almost no one plays in Air RB, need also to be looked into.

 

11. Air RB and Ground RB need seperated BRs for Aircrafts. It cant be that statistics of a different game mode, influence its BR in another game mode. They are 2 different worlds, that also play completely different.

 

12. Mark Airfield Campers on the Minimap similar to ground RB. There is so much antisocial behaviour in Air RB. The dominating team xxxxxxx against the loosing team hiding at their airfield while they camp the enemy airfield only waiting for the kill as soon as they take off. No wonder when the other team then stays at their airfield. Also in Jet matches Airfield AA does almost nothing anymore. Cant remember the last time, an airfield AA shot town an airfield strafer in BR8+ Jet matches.

 

13. Get rid of some ridiculous ground target AA defence. I got killed so often out of the blue by some AA ground units more toxic than the current Airfield Defence. I even  got killed at almost 4000 meters over the big lake on sicilia once or twice.

 

14. Crew Skill is tooo important in Air RB nowadays, way more than it was in the past. A newer player gets only very slowly crew exp and can fly already Tier 4 fighters but has no chance, as he still barely has any useable crew lvl on his slots and gets knocked out all the time by geforces or picked out of the sky as his crew just doesnt detect enemy planes, while the enemy already saw him for ages.

I experienced this when i tried to lvl up my french planes from zero and had to compare that experience to my other nations, where practically every slot has decent enough crew skills to expert almost any plane.

 

There is more that can be done, but that are some of my major points.

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

34 minutes ago, SpriGgy said:

 Wall of text

 

You know Gaijin claims that everything in Air RB is fine and working as intended? And that bs Axis vs Axis patch is balancing instead of being only a cover for everything that's wrong?

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

Air RB would need a gargantuan patch to fix what you describe, @SpriGgy. 

 

Without making games impossible to be won solely by team deathmatch, it is impossible to fit in bombers, attackers, or bomber-killer specialists into the mode as anything other than dead weight. Likewise to not make the current disadvantaged groups overpowered in response, they should not be able to win games entirely on their own either. Basically a miniature EC sort of match.

 

And if the only real solution is to make normal Air RB a miniature EC, it would be better to just release Markerless RBEC to all BRs and proceed to strip down normal Air RB to just a fighter deathmatch with only fighters allowed to queue in it.

 

 

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

7 minutes ago, Diabel_Z_Piekla said:

 

You know Gaijin claims that everything in Air RB is fine and working as intended? And that bs Axis vs Axis patch is balancing instead of being only a cover for everything that's wrong?

Sadly, they kinda do or at least act like that everything is “fine.” They may know there is a real problem but aren’t sure what to do about it. That is what official pinned threads like this are meant to help with.

 

I think enough people have said already that this is a very shoddy band-aid to the three real problems:

1. The T-2K being massively undertiered

2. The missile lock warning making lower-BR missile-equipped planes nigh-totally incapable of dealing with T-2Ks.

3. And no other mode being a serious and real option for the non-meta planes, with only the Allied side generally spamming out non-meta planes like Panthers, Cougars, unarmed Vautours, Tu-4s, Tu-14Ts, IL-28s, IL-28Shs, B-57A/Bs, Canberras/Cannonberras, etc. The Axis side has no “non-meta” planes beyond maybe 7.3 at best (Arados, Narwhals, & R2Y2s). 

[Ein79 5,752]

4 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Sadly, they kinda do or at least act like that everything is “fine.” They may know there is a real problem but aren’t sure what to do about it. That is what official pinned threads like this are meant to help with.

 

I think enough people have said already that this is a very shoddy band-aid to the three real problems:

1. The T-2K being massively undertiered

2. The missile lock warning making lower-BR missile-equipped planes nigh-totally incapable of dealing with T-2Ks.

3. And no other mode being a serious and real option for the non-meta planes, with only the Allied side generally spamming out non-meta planes like Panthers, Cougars, unarmed Vautours, Tu-4s, Tu-14Ts, IL-28s, IL-28Shs, B-57A/Bs, Canberras/Cannonberras, etc. The Axis side has no “non-meta” planes beyond maybe 7.3 at best (Arados, Narwhals, & R2Y2s). 

 

 

Funny, this is a 1:1 situation like the time when Yak23 was added to the game with just 7.3 BR.

 

Remind me how long it took before Yak23 was moved to 8.0, where he belonged from the beginning?

 

Months or whole year?

 

 

 

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

4 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Sadly, they kinda do or at least act like that everything is “fine.” They may know there is a real problem but aren’t sure what to do about it. That is what official pinned threads like this are meant to help with.

"They may know there is a real problem"... Nice euphemism. GJ threw dogshit into fan and now they're simply painting the walls back white - but without removing pieces of poop that went off that fan...

For more than a year (after release of french "aviation") there are voices that maybe after new nation in game we need some revision of Air RB, there were big suggestion thread made by (if I'm not wrong) @EpicBlitzkrieg87 and more suggestion in Air RB section of forum, people were writing what is wrong, there were voices that we don't need more modern stuff in aviation etc... What GJ did? They released helis, new generation of supersonic fighters or new, fancy, shiny, more expensive V tier premiums... 

I don't blame them for making money, I blame them that their way of making money ignore that part of community which want to participate in evolution of that game.

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

4 hours ago, Diabel_Z_Piekla said:

I don't blame them for making money, I blame them that their way of making money ignore that part of community which want to participate in evolution of that game.

And right now the only ways community members can participate in the evolution of the game are:

1. Become Youtube content creators for the game and get your channel to grow large enough to attract lots of people. 

2. Write Suggestions and pray they get enough attention to be passed to Development, then pray some more that they get actually implemented. Same applies to Bug Reports.

3. Give feedback on official pinned discussions such as this thread or Update Discussions or Economy Discussions endorsed by the main forum people like Stona, Scarper, Smin, and others.

 

So many problems underlie the disaster unfolding in Air RB now. BR spread, maps, maps being bound to nation matchups, an overly fighter-centric meta, nerfs to CAS bleeding over from Ground Forces, enemy markers, broken dot spotting that sometimes lets you see a plane 30km away and other times makes it invisible, the missile warning, gun damage being inconsistent patch to patch, P2W crew skills for G force tolerance and stamina, and last but not least the misconception held by a lot of people that adding new stuff will somehow fix things.

 

Adding new stuff can fix only the following problems:

- lack of appropriate opposition for the T-2K

- lack of superprop-equivalent planes for Germany, Russia, Italy, and Japan at the 6.3-6.7 BR in the main tree.

- lack of real and effective attackers for Japan

- lack of effective bombers for Japan

That’s pretty much it. Everything else is a gameplay issue or matchmaking issue.

 

And yet the proper channels to communicate these problems and possible solutions to these problems pretty much don’t exist.

 

Add strange and questionable workings of their business model, specifically a cycle of “release something OP on purpose to get money out of the well-off statpadders, after that has made what it was meant to and then some, release a fix for the problem of it being OP which more often than not is releasing something even crazier that renders the first thing worthless or finding a “bug” that was making the thing overperform, and repeat this troubling cycle.” 

 

This was made apparent by the release of the IS-6 and T29 for ground forces. Both were and still are rather stupidly good, both had ridiculous bugs that made them extremely hard to kill (T29 lower plate acting like spaced armor and ammo not detonating, IS-6 turret plating acting like it was thicker than it actually was and stealth nerfing of both HEAT & HESH postpen which were the only things able to kill it at the time), and only after months of insanity and sometimes community outcry did their issues get fixed. During their reign of overpoweredness they sold like hotcakes. Same with the Ru-251 (not hull breaking when it should), IT-1 (ammo not blowing up, camera position from missile allowing it to shoot while fully behind cover), Centauro (APHE not exploding after penning it, ammo not blowing up), Tu-4 (flying tank damage model and crazy-strong guns at a ridiculously low initial 6.3 BR), A7M1-NK9H (total UFO flight model on release), and just so many others that make my head spin when thinking about them seriously. 

 

The T-2K was put this low on purpose to sell well. We have seen this cycle far too many times for it to be anything else.

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

On 05/04/2019 at 12:04, Stavroforos said:

CL-13 has a higher winrate than T-2. 

Winrate is not everything...CL and T2 are in the same teams...the team with more T2`s wins

[Ein79 5,752]

On 31/03/2019 at 18:27, FoolOnTheHill said:

 

'War thunder'

'Axis thunder'

'Wasabi thunder'

 

 

What's next? Maybe all-against-each-other Battle-Royale-Thunder?

 

 

 

[_Kolonel_Klink_ 390]

This symmetric matchmaking is terrible at 9.0, I have chosen to simply stop playing my 9.0 premium because it is isn't fun.

 

Allies are enjoying peace from the T-2 stomping, while the Axis 9.0's are getting stomped by a jet they should never see.

 

T-2 has to be uptiered so that it only fights other T-2's until other nations achieve parity with similar vehicles. Then restore regular Axis v Allies matchmaking, plus implement other variations without having mixed battles.

 

Oh, and the symmetrical matchmaking isn't limited to 7.7 and up, it is occurring below that in early jets at 6.3 - NOT FUN AT ALL.

 

So, in conclusion, symmetrical matchmaking is bad, and you should feel bad. Remove it, and uptier the T-2 to 11.0

[Ein79 5,752]

47 minutes ago, _Kolonel_Klink_ said:

So, in conclusion, symmetrical matchmaking is bad, and you should feel bad. Remove it, and uptier the T-2 to 11.0

This is Gaijins failure, open admission of helplessness in creating a balanced, faction-vs-faction match in a reasonable queue time.

Despite 6 years of development, despite impressive player base growth. Calling this "improvement" is ridiculous.
 

This is the result of continuous, extensive addition of vehicles without care for the national techtrees structures and their balanced relationships with others. It is impossible to balance everything via BattleRating system and Economy. The content of techtrees, their structure, vehicle categories - this is just as important as the BR of given vehicles. Add to this suboptimal dispersion of players - both within nation on given BR and for the whole game.

 

Of course, the development of tech trees is partly the result of the players' pressure to add these or that vehicles, but Gaijin manages and is responsible, not players. 

And when Gaijin deliberately adds a disgustingly OP vehicle as Mitsubishi T2 just to tempt players to buy Japan "premium Sabre" for quick grinding into T2..this is simply offensive to the rest of game community.


 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[SpriGgy 992]

The greed for fast money ruined the Balance, the Game itself, Gaijins reputation and so on now for years.

Does even one still remember when War Thunder kinda was a rolemoddel for how to make a good f2p game, in a time when the boom of iresponsible grinder games for browsers or Asia MMORPGs was diminishing. What is left of that? Almost nothing, except the sometimes not soo hard to get Event Vehicles.

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

4 hours ago, _Kolonel_Klink_ said:

So, in conclusion, symmetrical matchmaking is bad, and you should feel bad. Remove it, and uptier the T-2 to 11.0

Nope, 11.3 so the T-2 faces nothing but itself. 

 

A vehicle that disgustingly good has no business fighting anything but itself. 

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

4 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

This is the result of continuous, extensive addition of vehicles without care for the national techtrees structures and their balanced relationships with others. It is impossible to balance everything via BattleRating system and Economy. The content of techtrees, their structure, vehicle categories - this is just as important as the BR of given vehicles. Add to this suboptimal dispersion of players - both within nation on given BR and for the whole game.

The white elephant in the room all these years has been the totally lacking gameplay that should have been fixed years ago in regards of balancing efforts of fighters and nonfighters. This imbalance is partially responsible for the “T-2 crisis” unfolding right now - Allies have all the non-meta planes (Vautours, Panthers, Cougars, Javelins, Mysteres, B-57s, Canberras, IL-28s, etc etc) while the last Axis non-meta planes are 6.7-7.0 Arado-234s and Narwhals. 

 

The mode is being strangled by its zero-sum objective structure that allows for no room to improve one class without the current reigning group complaining that they aren’t the only thing that matters anymore. Every. Single. Time. We get a new attacker or bomber that’s actually good at winning games, the fighters complain because something dares to interrupt the “Holy Team Deathmatch” session, resulting in massive nerfs to said attacker or bomber until things resume as they were before. 

 

This inflexible objective structure is also harmful to the dev team as well - because it almost completely wastes dev team effort put into modelling and making new bombers and attackers. The most recent example being the event PB-3M Mariner - a mostly useless hangar decoration due to the suffocating meta that not even the popular youtubers bothered making videos on it. A few people will always buy and play new bombers and attackers, but with how useless they generally are in the current meta they are few and far between. 

 

Then the way jets work focuses so heavily on speed to the point of ridiculousness, rendering anything not the absolute fastest as little more than food. Part of the reason things focus so heavily on top speed is because of the Pay-2-Win Crew Skills for G force tolerance and Pilot Stamina, then the added aspects of Expert & Ace qualification. Maneuverability doesn’t matter that much when your pilot falls asleep at the controls instead of just vision darkening like things once were years ago. Thus it created a toxic meta of “fly the absolute fastest plane or become food for those that do.” We saw it with the F-2 Sabre initially, then the MiG-17A, then the Hunter F.1, then the CL-13A Mk5, then the F-100D/MiG-19, and now the T-2K. Missiles could have been a balancing factor but the automatic handhold of a warning ruins any potential that had.

 

So instead, it is long overdue to split the endgame into isolated BR islands that do not intermingle. This is how the BR system can solve this mess.

- first level of endgame are WW2-era jets and superprops, this is more of a half-island since it would still connect to the tiers below but not above. 

- the next level would be upgraded versions of WW2-era jets and some postwar things such as F-84Bs. 

- next would come the bulk of current 7.7-8.7 things (not including rocket planes as they’re a unique case needing a unique solution)

- next would come the top-end subsonics without missiles

- next would come the top-end subsonics with missiles

- next would be most of the missile-armed supersonics

- finally would be the T-2K all alone.

 

As for rocket aircraft, they frankly won’t ever be balanced in a way most of us see as acceptable. They are just a class of planes meant for an end-WW2/very-early-postwar Markerless EC event. Big maps would force the Komets and Shisuis to throttle down massively to conserve fuel while looking for targets, while also making the 262C models fly with boosters off to save rocket boost for actual combat. Respawns in the mode would make rushing enemies totally pointless as games would still take three hours. Since rocket planes would be forced to fly a lot slower than their top speeds, it would be more than possible for “underdog” opponents like F-80A/MiG-9/Meteors/Spitfire Mk24/P-51H/etc to catch low-throttle rocket planes and kill them in a markerless environment before they could react. They’d still be at the top end of the BRs in the EC scenario and would be saddled with significant wait times when shot down so it would be impossible to spam them out. These planes are specialized bomber killers meant to soar up to altitude stupid fast to get the bombers before they drop,  no amount of BR shifting will ever balance them, only giving them a mode where their intended job is a high priority one will balance them.

 

A different level of EC above the proposed end WW2 one would serve to soak up spam of all the Allied non-meta planes, and if necessary have mixed civil war teams to deal with it. If/when Germany, Italy, & Japan ever get serious non-meta jet bombers for 8.0+ they would belong in Markerless EC too, not “Randumb Battles”.

 

It is straight-up impossible to satisfy the needs of every plane class simultaneously in a single mode. Every time the game tried to do so one group whined and the devs ended up listening to the loudest collective voice - fighter mains. As a result the game became fighter-centric and stayed that way. Either the mode needs a total restructuring to make nonfighter and fighter camps be forced to rely on each other for efficient and time-effective wins, or the fighter and nonfighter camps need to be permanently split up. Markerless RB EC to service the nonfighters and a stripped down Air RB (no bombers, attackers, bomber-killer heavy fighters, bomb points, ground units, AAA, or airbase health meters) that is just a team deathmatch and nothing else.

 

With the lopsided nonfighter spam gone from the Allied side, things would not nearly be as drastically imbalanced as they are now. The T-2K being massively undertiered (to sell on purpose) is the other half of the mess.

2 hours ago, SpriGgy said:

Does even one still remember when War Thunder kinda was a rolemoddel for how to make a good f2p game, in a time when the boom of iresponsible grinder games for browsers or Asia MMORPGs was diminishing. What is left of that? Almost nothing, except the sometimes not soo hard to get Event Vehicles.

You’re referring to the 20-tier system the game had before 1.37? Yeah, I can guess what you mean. Overall BR spread was significantly less bad than now even though it was +/- 1 tier. Things were grindy but sensible, objective structure was far more balanced because even though autowin conditions existed, in Air RB many scenarios were set up to where the nonfighters were necessary to winning games efficiently. Or at least that is what I heard in some PMs with @NO_DRAGON years ago.

Edited April 7, 2019 by MH4UAstragon