Balance improvements in Aircraft Realistic Battles

[LuizBarros99 436]

2 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

I agree with you, BUT "Beam Riding AAMs" will likely simply be useless vs Aircraft... But having an after-burning MiG-17 with a radar would be lovely.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

Well, I find it questionable to believe in the "D" and "E" scenarios, since IIRC the biggest reason that made Japan surrendered to USA was mainly to keep the Emperor on his place. The argument that is used to support this view was because their culture sees their emperor in an almost divine way, and something, that goes directly against the Soviet Union's view of "non religion" (Except for North Korea, where the Rocket K1ddo's family claim to be almost divine).

[Ein79 5,752]

On 30/03/2019 at 14:23, LuizBarros99 said:

I agree with you, BUT "Beam Riding AAMs" will likely simply be useless vs Aircraft... But having an after-burning MiG-17 with a radar would be lovely.

 

I don't think so. We already have quite "tryhard" missile in the game: the AA.20 Nord: command guided, with the missile being stered manually from the cockpit of launching aircraft.

It is manually controlled like WWII German X4 missile. Seems "likely simply be useless vs Aircraft", but it's not, just killed 2 x T2 with them...with some "WTF's" on all chat.

Beam riding will be similar but easier.

On 30/03/2019 at 14:23, LuizBarros99 said:

Well, I find it questionable to believe in the "D" and "E" scenarios, since IIRC the biggest reason that made Japan surrendered to USA was mainly to keep the Emperor on his place. The argument that is used to support this view was because their culture sees their emperor in an almost divine way, and something, that goes directly against the Soviet Union's view of "non religion" (Except for North Korea, where the Rocket K1ddo's family claim to be almost divine).

 

Well, its just geopolitical-fiction with some % of probability.  Let's say proposed "D" and "E" are a global conflict "Eurasia vs USA" (raw materials, strategic territories) with WestEurope dragged into it as a part of NATO.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Pirillo 99]

Symmetric battles under 9.0 are not even necessary from a game balance standpoint: Sea Hawk is easy to kill or dodge.

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

 

4 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

What about little more historical mood (not full-historical of course)??

 

Warsaw Pact 9.0-10.0:

 

(Ru)

MiG-19PT

MiG-17

MiG-15bis

Mig-15ISH (prem)

 

 

(EastGer)

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

 

 

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

 

In addition, we can expect new supersonic WarsawPact aircraft in 1.89 patch (e.g.: Su7B, Mig21F)

 

 

Japan 9.0-10.0...Japan IRL is an US ally and has a partnership with NATO, but is not a member of NATO.

 

 

(japan)

T-2K

F-86F-40

F-86F-40 (prem)

F-86F-30

 

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Allies/NATO 9.0-10.0:

 

(US)

 

F-100D

F-86A-5

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86F-35 (prem)

F-100D

 

(UK)

 

Javelin

Hunter

 

(WestGer)

 

CL-13B

CL-13A

 

(FR)

 

Super Mystere

M.D.452 Mystere IIA

S.O. 4050A

S.O. 4050B
S.O. 4050 premium 
 

(Ita)

 

G.91YS

G.91R/1

G.91R/4 (prem)

 

 

I love this.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Conte_Baracca

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

5 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

What about little more historical mood (not full-historical of course)??

 

Warsaw Pact 9.0-10.0:

 

(Ru)

MiG-19PT

MiG-17

MiG-15bis

Mig-15ISH (prem)

 

 

(EastGer)

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

 

 

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

 

In addition, we can expect new supersonic WarsawPact aircraft in 1.89 patch (e.g.: Su7B, Mig21F)

 

 

Japan 9.0-10.0...Japan IRL is an US ally and has a partnership with NATO, but is not a member of NATO.

 

 

(japan)

T-2K

F-86F-40

F-86F-40 (prem)

F-86F-30

 

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Allies/NATO 9.0-10.0:

 

(US)

 

F-100D

F-86A-5

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86F-35 (prem)

F-100D

 

(UK)

 

Javelin

Hunter

 

(WestGer)

 

CL-13B

CL-13A

 

(FR)

 

Super Mystere

M.D.452 Mystere IIA

S.O. 4050A

S.O. 4050B
S.O. 4050 premium 
 

(Ita)

 

G.91YS

G.91R/1

G.91R/4 (prem)

 

 

This is the best idea I heard

[Pirillo 99]

5 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

What about little more historical mood (not full-historical of course)??

 

Warsaw Pact 9.0-10.0:

 

(Ru)

MiG-19PT

MiG-17

MiG-15bis

Mig-15ISH (prem)

 

 

(EastGer)

 

MiG-19S

MiG-15bis

 

 

As we see, in the context of 1.87, WarsaPact urgently needs 9.0 planes with air-to-air missiles and generaly stronger 9.0s:

 

Mig-17F (clasic with afterburner)

Mig-17PFU with 4x beam riding AAM

Mig-17AS with 2x IR AAM (Cuban skin, premium?)

 

In addition, we can expect new supersonic WarsawPact aircraft in 1.89 patch (e.g.: Su7B, Mig21F)

 

 

Japan 9.0-10.0...Japan IRL is an US ally and has a partnership with NATO, but is not a member of NATO.

 

 

(japan)

T-2K

F-86F-40

F-86F-40 (prem)

F-86F-30

 

Perhaps Japan should take part in several scenarios assuming also possible conflicts between allies and even completely reversing alliances:

 

a) Japan alone vs WarsawPact

b) Japan & USA vs WarsawPact

c) Japan & NATO vs WarsawPact

d) Japan alone vs whole NATO

c) Japan alone vs whole NATO

d) Japan & WarsawPact vs USA

e) Japan & WarsawPact vs whole NATO

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Allies/NATO 9.0-10.0:

 

(US)

 

F-100D

F-86A-5

F-86F-2

F-86F-25

F-86F-35 (prem)

F-100D

 

(UK)

 

Javelin

Hunter

 

(WestGer)

 

CL-13B

CL-13A

 

(FR)

 

Super Mystere

M.D.452 Mystere IIA

S.O. 4050A

S.O. 4050B
S.O. 4050 premium 
 

(Ita)

 

G.91YS

G.91R/1

G.91R/4 (prem)

 

 

Very wise, indeed.

 

Why didn't Gaijin think about that before?

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

1 hour ago, Pirillo said:

Why didn't Gaijin think about that before?

Because they're watching rubel counter rising and they don't have time for such minor things.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Diabel_Z_Piekla

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

We’ve sadly seen this trend before with both planes and tanks.

 

1. Release something that is knowingly broken powerful and possibly even bugged all to hell in a way benefitting the vehicle. 

1b. If something rises to counter said purposely overpowered vehicle, nerf it all to hell.

2. Rake in monetary earnings from everybody rushing to the percieved overpowered vehicle

3. Some time later, bring down nerf hammer on said overpowered vehicle with likely BR increases, fixing of beneficial bugs for said overpowered vehicle, or both. 

4. Repeat with something else that may or may not render the first vehicle of this cycle totally useless. 

 

Using the IS-6 as a prime example:

1. Was released at 7.0 BR with a bugged turret face that was acting like it was thicker-armored than it actually was, causing most shells hitting it to be eaten by the turret face. Tank was and still is very, very fast. 

1b. People used the M46’s HEATFS and 105mm L7 HESH to splatter IS-6s left and right in one or two hits max. People who rush-bought it with no real experience in tanks whined that it could kill them. HEAT postpen got nerfed, HESH pen and postpen got severely nerfed. Some of each nerf has been undone today but its nowhere near what it was.

2. IS-6 proceeds to sell extremely well, one of the best-selling premiums in a LONG time.

3. After datamining revealed that the two turret plates were acting like they were twice as thick as they actually were, there was community outcry and a hotfix. Later on its BR got raised slightly to 7.3. I only bought one well after said hotfix.

4. Quite a few BR shifts and new additions have occurred as well as that render the IS-6 still good but not all that impressive in the armor department. Plus there are significant buffs to APCR & APDS on the horizon (were seen on last dev server but have not made it to live yet).

 

This same cycle is happening regarding the T-2K.

1. Release of a vehicle that’s blatantly overpowered in regards to other top tier jets, bonus points for adding it to a tech tree not all that many people play. 

2. Lots of people charge to get the T-2K, some of which having so much extra money on their hands that they GE through the majority of the japan tree just to get this jet. 

3. No BR raises or nerfs have come around yet

4. Stuff to usurp the T-2K is likely already on the horizon. 

 

*And with how homogenized jet combat actually is, where speed beats literally everything in conjunction with tiny maps and enemy markers, a jet is either overpowered or totally useless*

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

22 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

We’ve sadly seen this trend before with both planes and tanks.

 

1. Release something that is knowingly broken powerful and possibly even bugged all to hell in a way benefitting the vehicle. 

1b. If something rises to counter said purposely overpowered vehicle, nerf it all to hell.

2. Rake in monetary earnings from everybody rushing to the percieved overpowered vehicle

3. Some time later, bring down nerf hammer on said overpowered vehicle with likely BR increases, fixing of beneficial bugs for said overpowered vehicle, or both. 

4. Repeat with something else that may or may not render the first vehicle of this cycle totally useless. 

 

Using the IS-6 as a prime example:

1. Was released at 7.0 BR with a bugged turret face that was acting like it was thicker-armored than it actually was, causing most shells hitting it to be eaten by the turret face. Tank was and still is very, very fast. 

1b. People used the M46’s HEATFS and 105mm L7 HESH to splatter IS-6s left and right in one or two hits max. People who rush-bought it with no real experience in tanks whined that it could kill them. HEAT postpen got nerfed, HESH pen and postpen got severely nerfed. Some of each nerf has been undone today but its nowhere near what it was.

2. IS-6 proceeds to sell extremely well, one of the best-selling premiums in a LONG time.

3. After datamining revealed that the two turret plates were acting like they were twice as thick as they actually were, there was community outcry and a hotfix. Later on its BR got raised slightly to 7.3. I only bought one well after said hotfix.

4. Quite a few BR shifts and new additions have occurred as well as that render the IS-6 still good but not all that impressive in the armor department. Plus there are significant buffs to APCR & APDS on the horizon (were seen on last dev server but have not made it to live yet).

 

This same cycle is happening regarding the T-2K.

1. Release of a vehicle that’s blatantly overpowered in regards to other top tier jets, bonus points for adding it to a tech tree not all that many people play. 

2. Lots of people charge to get the T-2K, some of which having so much extra money on their hands that they GE through the majority of the japan tree just to get this jet. 

3. No BR raises or nerfs have come around yet

4. Stuff to usurp the T-2K is likely already on the horizon. 

 

*And with how homogenized jet combat actually is, where speed beats literally everything in conjunction with tiny maps and enemy markers, a jet is either overpowered or totally useless*

Sigh.  The truth here.

[Palmput 60]

This is really awful. These matches are now ANTI-fun because every thing is just the same exact plane facing itself, which means that nobody has anything that they can really do. Don't do this.

[BlackFlagger 199]

8 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

We’ve sadly seen this trend before with both planes and tanks.

 

1. Release something that is knowingly broken powerful and possibly even bugged all to hell in a way benefitting the vehicle. 

1b. If something rises to counter said purposely overpowered vehicle, nerf it all to hell.

2. Rake in monetary earnings from everybody rushing to the percieved overpowered vehicle

3. Some time later, bring down nerf hammer on said overpowered vehicle with likely BR increases, fixing of beneficial bugs for said overpowered vehicle, or both. 

4. Repeat with something else that may or may not render the first vehicle of this cycle totally useless. 

 

Using the IS-6 as a prime example:

1. Was released at 7.0 BR with a bugged turret face that was acting like it was thicker-armored than it actually was, causing most shells hitting it to be eaten by the turret face. Tank was and still is very, very fast. 

1b. People used the M46’s HEATFS and 105mm L7 HESH to splatter IS-6s left and right in one or two hits max. People who rush-bought it with no real experience in tanks whined that it could kill them. HEAT postpen got nerfed, HESH pen and postpen got severely nerfed. Some of each nerf has been undone today but its nowhere near what it was.

2. IS-6 proceeds to sell extremely well, one of the best-selling premiums in a LONG time.

3. After datamining revealed that the two turret plates were acting like they were twice as thick as they actually were, there was community outcry and a hotfix. Later on its BR got raised slightly to 7.3. I only bought one well after said hotfix.

4. Quite a few BR shifts and new additions have occurred as well as that render the IS-6 still good but not all that impressive in the armor department. Plus there are significant buffs to APCR & APDS on the horizon (were seen on last dev server but have not made it to live yet).

 

This same cycle is happening regarding the T-2K.

1. Release of a vehicle that’s blatantly overpowered in regards to other top tier jets, bonus points for adding it to a tech tree not all that many people play. 

2. Lots of people charge to get the T-2K, some of which having so much extra money on their hands that they GE through the majority of the japan tree just to get this jet. 

3. No BR raises or nerfs have come around yet

4. Stuff to usurp the T-2K is likely already on the horizon. 

 

*And with how homogenized jet combat actually is, where speed beats literally everything in conjunction with tiny maps and enemy markers, a jet is either overpowered or totally useless*

 

That is pretty much true, happened with stuff like the kpz70 and m1 when they were top dog, a patch later good competition / new top tier was added but they were still nerfed into the ground.

 

 Mixed battle is gonna help people complaining about allied winrates I guess but it's not gonna help the performance gap, T2 shouldn't be anywhere close to 10.0. I'm not sure it should fight subsonics and if it has too because of numbers it should only fight the best of them (preferably planes with missiles too, and talking mixed battles) like cl13mk6, g91 ys, super mystere, f40 and probably cl13mk5, mig17, f2 saber, g91  as well if the others are not enough for the matchmaker. And the other stuff like a5 saber, mig15bis, hunter, javelin, fj4b etc shouldn't see top tier ever.

Edited March 31, 2019 by BlackFlagger

[Ein79 5,752]

@Stona @Smin1080p
 

A simple temporary idea:

The main, if not the only, reason for such a drastic imbalance is the addition of the Mitsubishi T2, which in no way fit to the 9.0-10.0 BR range. 

 

If so, why are all other "axis" vehicles supposed to endure that unbearable, boring and still unfair gameplay? Unfair, because these matches are simply stolen and broken by T2s on both sides.

 

Let's make a special-sub-matchmaker for T2 .... let it create T2-vsT2 matches only - of course only until another plane with comparable performance is introduced.

 

T2 is a training plane from the 70's - let's treat it as a training phase before the appearance of the actual combat aircraft from the 70's.

 

 

 

 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

4 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

@Stona @Smin1080p
 

A simple temporary idea:

The main, if not the only, reason for such a drastic imbalance is the addition of the Mitsubishi T2, which in no way fit to the 9.0-10.0 BR range. 

 

If so, why are all other "axis" vehicles supposed to endure that unbearable, boring and still unfair gameplay? Unfair, because these matches are simply stolen and broken by T2s on both sides.

 

Let's make a special-sub-matchmaker for T2 .... let it create T2-vsT2 matches only - of course only until another plane with comparable performance is introduced.

 

T2 is a training plane from the 70's - let's treat it as a training phase before the appearance of the actual combat aircraft from the 70's.

 

 

 

 

From my experience, the problem is not just the T-2, but that the Axis lineup is far superior to Allied lineups. 

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

2 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

From my experience, the problem is not just the T-2, but that the Axis lineup is far superior to Allied lineups. 

Better aircraft BR for BR from 8.3 to 9.3...end of story

 

[Ein79 5,752]

9 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

From my experience, the problem is not just the T-2, but that the Axis lineup is far superior to Allied lineups. 

No, US F100 and Russian Mig19PT combo is really enough to face Mig19S and G91YS combo. 

Well played SuperMystere can make a trouble for CL-13B. Well played F86F2 can have balanced match vs Japan Sabres or EstGerman Mig15. SO4050 is really hard to chase, even for CL13A...and so on.

There is really one balance&fun killer: T2. 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

14 hours ago, Palmput said:

This is really awful. These matches are now ANTI-fun because every thing is just the same exact plane facing itself, which means that nobody has anything that they can really do. Don't do this.

100% agree with u, I hate mixed battles...why is gaijin making a new MM in only 5 mins to get more angry players in the forum? Why they are not do what this game needs/what WE want? $ ?

[Stavroforos 15,367]

5 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

No, US F100 and Russian Mig19PT combo is really enough to face Mig19S and G91YS combo. 

Well played SuperMystere can make a trouble for CL-13B. Well played F86F2 can have balanced match vs Japan Sabres or EstGerman Mig15. SO4050 is really hard to chase, even for CL13A...and so on.

There is really one balance&fun killer: T2. 

 

 

Except an allied team will be full of Vautours, B-57s, Javelins, F-86As, etc., etc., whereas the Axis only get the excellent G.91, G.91Y, MiG-19, Canadairs, and T-2s. 

[Ein79 5,752]

4 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Except an allied team will be full of Vautours, B-57s, Javelins, F-86As, etc., etc., whereas the Axis only get the excellent G.91, G.91Y, MiG-19, Canadairs, and T-2s. 

Yes, the problem is that allied players are often picking "non-meta" planes "for reason" despite they have excelent meta planes on same BR. 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

14 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Yes, the problem is that allied players are often picking "non-meta" planes "for reason" despite they have excelent meta planes on same BR. 

...right, which is exactly why the Axis have a better lineup to choose from. 

 

Every time Axis are doing well it's always "well why don't you Allies just get gud." 

[BlackFlagger 199]

7 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

...right, which is exactly why the Axis have a better lineup to choose from. 

 

Every time Axis are doing well it's always "well why don't you Allies just get gud." 

So what do you propose then remove bad vehicles from the game like a5 saber or b57 ?

Edited March 31, 2019 by BlackFlagger

[Stavroforos 15,367]

1 minute ago, BlackFlagger said:

So what do you propose them remove bad vehicles from the game like a5 saber or b57 ?

Can't say. If there are bad planes we could give the Axis then that would be one way, but there simply aren't because Germany wasn't given everything because of their vassal-type status. 

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

5 minutes ago, BlackFlagger said:

So what do you propose them remove bad vehicles from the game like a5 saber or b57 ?

B57 isnt so bad its only needs an lower BR (B75A-> 6.7, B57B-> 7.3), but yes the A5 is very bad -> 8.3

Edited March 31, 2019 by HanTheKiller

[BlackFlagger 199]

2 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Can't say. If there are bad planes we could give the Axis then that would be one way, but there simply aren't because Germany wasn't given everything because of their vassal-type status. 

There is, people dont actually play 163, 262 c etc.

[Stavroforos 15,367]

Just now, BlackFlagger said:

There is, people dont actually play 163, 262 c etc.

I meant more around the 9.0-10.0 mark. 

[BlackFlagger 199]

2 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

I meant more around the 9.0-10.0 mark. 

What about the 9.0 g91s ? I don't have them but im pretty sure they're worse than f2, mig17.