Balance improvements in Aircraft Realistic Battles

[Stavroforos 15,367]

2 minutes ago, BlackFlagger said:

What about the 9.0 g91s ? I don't have them but im pretty sure they're worse than f2, mig17.

They're still very capable, and if the Luftwaffe got their version then they'd be even better since they have 2 x 30mm instead of the .50s. 

[BlackFlagger 199]

2 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

They're still very capable, and if the Luftwaffe got their version then they'd be even better since they have 2 x 30mm instead of the .50s. 

Then you would say stuff like the mig15 or a5 saber are not competitive ?

[Stavroforos 15,367]

3 minutes ago, BlackFlagger said:

Then you would say stuff like the mig15 or a5 saber are not competitive ?

Not at 9.0, no. 

[BlackFlagger 199]

4 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Not at 9.0, no. 

I think they're fine at 9.0 but I think top tier should be bumped up, they shouldn't ever fight t2 or mig19.

[Stavroforos 15,367]

22 minutes ago, BlackFlagger said:

I think they're fine at 9.0 but I think top tier should be bumped up, they shouldn't ever fight t2 or mig19.

Agreed, hopefully T-2 gets bumped up and Allies get something to fight it as well. 

[FoolOnTheHill 384]

2 days later still the same axis on axis teams and T2 spam what a shocker

 

what a waste of time top tier is right now 

 

its actually sad to play this game right now nothing top tier thats enjoyable

 

lets toast to 3 months of spammy meta thanks gaijin

Edited March 31, 2019 by FoolOnTheHill

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

20 minutes ago, FoolOnTheHill said:

2 days later still the same axis on axis teams and T2 spam what a shocker

  

what a waste of time top tier is right now 

 

its actually sad to play this game right now nothing top tier thats enjoyable

  

lets toast to 3 months of spammy meta thanks gaijin

They only need to add the F-4E Phantom 2 (ok, and maybe an early version of the mig21) and we have balance....They added the T-2 very too early and now they dont want do listen to us, because, we dont like this patch/change....same with the Tunguska,Gaijin adds something, but without any counter part

Edited March 31, 2019 by HanTheKiller

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

1 hour ago, BlackFlagger said:

Then you would say stuff like the mig15 or a5 saber are not competitive ?

There is an entire subclass of 9.0 jets that aren't as good as the majority of 9.0 jets.

 

They are the:

F-86A5 (USA)

MiG-15 (Russia)

Venom FB.4 (Britain)

G.91 R/1 (Italy)

Mystere IIA (France)

Mystere IIC (France)

 

There are two ways to handle this.  First, lower them all to 8.7.  I see this as the least preferred solution as 8.0 jets should NOT be facing CL-13's or F-86F's

The second way is to raise all of the OTHER 9.0's (you know..the good ones) to 9.3 and raise everything above them up a bit.  For example the  G.91YS to 9.7, F-100D to 10.0, T-2 to 12.0...stuff like that.

[FoolOnTheHill 384]

*Adds G91YS for axis*

*adds T2 for axis*

*adds MIG19S for axis*

 

'War thunder'

'Axis thunder'

'Wasabi thunder'

Mitsibushi T-2 vs Mitsibushi T-2 vs Mitsibushi T-2 vs Mitsibushi T-2 vs Mitsibushi T-2 vs Mitsibushi T-2 vs G91Ys vs Mitsibushi T-2 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by FoolOnTheHill

[DarkAnswer 398]

Since every game is mixed theres no point playing Top tier air RB at all until the next update. Top tier air RB is really frustrating to play. Top tier should be bumped up to 11.0 to spread certain jets fairly. Many 9.0s need BR changes since they aren't capable to fight 9.7-10.0 jets.

 

Current 8.0s in need of a BR change

 

F-80C-10 - 7.3

Sea Meteor F Mk 3 - 7.3

Meteor F mk 4 G.41F - 7.7

ME-262 C-1A - 7.7

 

Current 9.0s in need of a BR change

 

F-86 A5 - 8.7

Mig-15 - 8.7

Mig-15/bis ISH - 8.7

Venom FB.4 - 8.3

G-91/R1 - 8.7

M.D. 452 IIA - 8.3

M.D. 452 IIC - 8.7

 

Remove R2Y2s air spawn.

The T-2 should definitely go up to 11.0 or 10.7.

And please, for the love of god, remove mixed...

Edited March 31, 2019 by DarkAnswer

[Ein79 5,752]

46 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

There is an entire subclass of 9.0 jets that aren't as good as the majority of 9.0 jets.

 

They are the:

F-86A5 (USA)

MiG-15 (Russia)

Venom FB.4 (Britain)

G.91 R/1 (Italy)

Mystere IIA (France)

Mystere IIC (France)

[...]

 

It is always a matter of choices, rationality or lack of it (someone can choose from sentiment, for camouflage aesthetics / skin and so on).

- Why to play F86A when you can fly F86F-2 with better performance and better guns on same 9.0 BR?
- Why to play Mig15 when you can fly Mig17 on same 9.0 BR?

- Why to play G91R1 when you can fly G91R4 with 4 x Sidewinders on same 9.0 BR or G91YS just 0.3 BR higher?

- Why to play Venom when you can fly Hunter...

and so on.

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Stavroforos 15,367]

5 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

 

It is always a matter of choices, rationality or lack of it (someone can choose from sentiment, for camouflage aesthetics / skin and so on).

- Why to play F86A when you can fly F86F-2 with better performance and better guns on same 9.0 BR?
- Why to play Mig15 when you can fly Mig17 on same 9.0 BR?

- Why to play G91R1 when you can fly G91R4 with 4 x Sidewinders on same 9.0 BR or G91YS just 0.3 BR higher?

- Why to play Venom when you can fly Hunter...

and so on.

 

So you're saying it's okay to have bad planes at a certain BR because you can also choose from better planes? (as long as you have them unlocked)

[Ein79 5,752]

1 hour ago, Stavroforos said:

So you're saying it's okay to have bad planes at a certain BR because you can also choose from better planes? (as long as you have them unlocked)

I'm not saying that this is OK, but it is sometimes a stalemate situation - the weakest on given BR, but not weak enough to be balanced when downtiered. 

In some cases, we can say that we have too many vehicles on a given BR. Some of them result from the history of adding vehicles (eg once Mig15 was the best, then Mig17 came to the same BR and so on). Others result from the suggestion of the community, wanting to have their favorite plane in the game, despite the fact that it will be sub-meta.

Continuous expansion of playable content, when exceeding the plaplayerbase growth, can drive to suboptimal dispersion of players - both within nation on given BR and for the whole game.

One of the problems described in my big post from yesterday:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/447886-balance-improvements-in-aircraft-realistic-battles/page/5/&tab=comments#comment-8064577

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

I'm not saying that this is OK, but it is sometimes a stalemate situation - the weakest on given BR, but not weak enough to be balanced when downtiered. 

IF they are too weak to play at their BR but to strong to go down one BR then the BR system is broken and needs decompression.

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

In some cases, we can say that we have too many vehicles on a given BR. Some of them result from the history of adding vehicles (eg once Mig15 was the best, then Mig17 came to the same BR and so on). Others result from the suggestion of the community, wanting to have their favorite plane in the game, despite the fact that it will be sub-meta.

This is the logical fallacy of "because it's always been that way."  

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Continuous expansion of playable content, when exceeding the plaplayerbase grow, can drive to suboptimal dispersion of players - both within nation on given BR and for the whole game.

There are currently 71k people playing the game as I type this.  This argument is no longer valid given the level of experience and total numbers of players in the game.

48 minutes ago, Einherjer1979 said:

One of the problems described in my big post from yesterday:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/447886-balance-improvements-in-aircraft-realistic-battles/page/5/&tab=comments#comment-8064577

 

You are missing both facts and reason in your argument.  If you can provide any of either I would be inclined to listen.

1 hour ago, DarkAnswer said:

Since every game is mixed theres no point playing Top tier air RB at all until the next update. Top tier air RB is really frustrating to play. Top tier should be bumped up to 11.0 to spread certain jets fairly. Many 9.0s need BR changes since they aren't capable to fight 9.7-10.0 jets.

 

Current 8.0s in need of a BR change

 

F-80C-10 - 7.3

Sea Meteor F Mk 3 - 7.3

Meteor F mk 4 G.41F - 7.7

ME-262 C-1A - 7.7

 

Current 9.0s in need of a BR change

 

F-86 A5 - 8.7

Mig-15 - 8.7

Mig-15/bis ISH - 8.7

Venom FB.4 - 8.3

G-91/R1 - 8.7

M.D. 452 IIA - 8.3

M.D. 452 IIC - 8.7

 

Remove R2Y2s air spawn.

The T-2 should definitely go up to 11.0 or 10.7.

And please, for the love of god, remove mixed...

Please...oh please ...oh please do something like this.

 

[KnightsCross20@psn 3,636]

GJ is putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. Doing mixed battles will aid queue times, but will only worsen a players experience. Too much neglect in game play. You can add all the shiny new aircraft you want. All that’s going to happen is, players will take their toys over to Ground. This imbalance that has been created by GJ, is in my humble opinion, beginning to wear on some of the player base. 

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

13 minutes ago, *KnightsCross20 said:

GJ is putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. Doing mixed battles will aid queue times, but will only worsen a players experience. Too much neglect in game play. You can add all the shiny new aircraft you want. All that’s going to happen is, players will take their toys over to Ground. This imbalance that has been created by GJ, is in my humble opinion, beginning to wear on some of the player base. 

I mean....we've only been saying that for years.

 

[Ein79 5,752]

11 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

There are currently 71k people playing the game as I type this.  This argument is no longer valid given the level of experience and total numbers of players in the game.

71k...wow...wonderfully.

But still they are apparently so dispersed among:

- ground forces, air force and ships
- game modes (mainly AB and RB, but also SIM and custom battles)
- tiers / BR ranges

..that it is almost impossible to have a not mixed AirRB jet match without a 10-minute queue, so we had mixed almost all the time (now we have 100% mirror-matches, even worse trash).

Not to mention that I don't remember when I recently had a clean nation-vs-nation match..for example 9.0 Italy vs UK, or Germany vs US.

So the plaplayerbase growth, though impressive, is inadequate to the level of players distraction among the still growing various game content.

 

 

 

 

 

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

Just now, Einherjer1979 said:

71k...wow...wonderfully.

But still they are apparently so dispersed among:

- ground forces, air force and ships
- game modes (mainly AB and RB, but also SIM and custom battles)
- tiers / BR ranges

..that it is almost impossible to have a not mixed AirRB jet match without a 10-minute queue, so we had mixed almost all the time (now we have 100% mirror-matches, even worse trash).

Not to mention that I don't remember when I recently had a clean nation-vs-nation match..for example 9.0 Italy vs UK, or Germany vs US.

So the plaplayerbase growth, though impressive, is inadequate to the level of players distraction among the still growing various game content.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with Jets is that the grind is too much.  ASO it is "locked away" from most players.

[Barflad 17]

Just now, Conte_Baracca said:

The problem with Jets is that the grind is too much.  ASO it is "locked away" from most players.

I don't mind it that much.  I just have to remember to only play high tiers on the weekends because the skill of the playerbase is a lot lower on the weekends.

[mdrpl7 185]

39 minutes ago, Barflad said:

I don't mind it that much.  I just have to remember to only play high tiers on the weekends because the skill of the playerbase is a lot lower on the weekends.

I dont get it when people whine about teammates skill. Both teams are affected by this so winrate stays the same. Its not like axis players play only on the weekends or allies prefer fridays

[FumbleSquid 11]

7 hours ago, BlackFlagger said:

There is, people dont actually play 163, 262 c etc. 

Wait wait wait, are you both saying that the 163 and c2b are bad AND that people don't play them?! How often did you play air RB at 8.0?! The ignorance displayed is astounding, the 163 is the first tier5 the germans have so it was one of the most common 8.0 seen before the sea hawk spam. As for the c2b its (even with its booster nerf) pretty much the best current 8.0 which a lot of 'try hard' kinds of players fly. Also since you seem to value anecdotal "evidence" my most flown plane is an 8.0 allied plane with about 3500 games those planes you mentioned aren't even rare let alone bad! And don't try to pull the "but some maps are big" defense the vast majority of maps you get now are pretty small (which I also don't like big maps for the record).

Edited March 31, 2019 by FumbleSquid

[MH4UAstragon 9,581]

5 hours ago, *KnightsCross20 said:

GJ is putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. Doing mixed battles will aid queue times, but will only worsen a players experience. Too much neglect in game play. You can add all the shiny new aircraft you want. All that’s going to happen is, players will take their toys over to Ground. This imbalance that has been created by GJ, is in my humble opinion, beginning to wear on some of the player base. 

Aaaaand with the ridiculously high spawn costs for planes in 8.0+ games, the chances of playing midtier jets usefully anywhere is nonexistent. 

 

All for what? To protect helicopter spammers from their own stupidity of spawning a heli first instead of last?

 

The mixed battle situation here further worsens things because for 8.0+ planes there is literally NOWHERE ELSE FOR SAID PLANES TO GO EXCEPT ARCADE. 

[Ein79 5,752]

Axis OP, CL13 brrroken, pls nurrrrrrf asap!       (no, it's not April Fool's joke, it's from actual yesterdays 10.0 gameplay and it's about "skill matter"..at least little bit)

Edited April 1, 2019 by Einherjer1979

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

5 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Axis OP, CL13 brrroken, pls nurrrrrrf asap!       (no, it's not April Fool's joke, it's from actual yesterdays 10.0 gameplay and it's about "skill matter"..at least little bit)

Anyone can get lucky.  Heck I killed two T2's with my G.91 R/4 in one match, and bagged an F-40. This is about what is a consistent fair gameplay for the maximum number of people possible.

 

[Ein79 5,752]

9 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

Anyone can get lucky.  Heck I killed two T2's with my G.91 R/4 in one match, and bagged an F-40. This is about what is a consistent fair gameplay for the maximum number of people possible.

 

No, this match was completely one-sided, the opposing team did not achieved even one kill, this was slaughter. 12 players...ZERO kills.

 And it was a completely balanced match in terms of vehicles: Germany+Italy+Japan vs Japan+Italy+Germany.

Perhaps we need another balancing factor to be included in the really balanced matchmaker - players skill measured by statistics (imperfect, but we do not have a better method).

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Einherjer1979