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short games?


przybysz86
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On 07/07/2019 at 07:27, _Dawger_ said:

I really don't believe many folks are interested in flying in an arena where the only reward is the fun they have.

 

Can always try.

 

Been wondering if this is possible, get rid of the Win Reward part of EC?

No Reward bonus, no +120SL +69RP, and no 150,000 match points.

Just 3 hours and play for fun, not score.

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32 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

Can always try.

 

Been wondering if this is possible, get rid of the Win Reward part of EC?

No Reward bonus, no +120SL +69RP, and no 150,000 match points.

Just 3 hours and play for fun, not score.

Pony51,
 

I even wonder why the EC mode (both Sim and Helicopter) also keeps track of Service Record data, like the win rate for example. Statistics like that makes sense for any competitive eSports style arena, but that's not the case here on how this mode is designed. It's meant to be immersive as a full-scale air campaign, a team effort for those to communicate and work together to achieve victory. So documenting data like that and making it public for the player (or anyone else searching the Service Record) feels like it contradicts that game design philosophy.

 

From my experience with WW2 Online, the only data recorded for the player was pretty much basic information like time played with the frag and death count. Anything else was kind of pointless to consider. You can't expect one player to carry his side against the entire Allied/Axis military during a month-long campaign. Not sure why EC is any different.

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7 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

Can always try.

 

Been wondering if this is possible, get rid of the Win Reward part of EC?

No Reward bonus, no +120SL +69RP, and no 150,000 match points.

Just 3 hours and play for fun, not score.

 

But it should allow all available planes (maxed) without grinding part - so no go for snail business.

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7 hours ago, Pony51 said:

Been wondering if this is possible, get rid of the Win Reward part of EC?

Technically it's possible. Whether it's short-term survivable by the player numbers is another matter. There has been 5+ years of selection bias to shape the player base to likely select for players who expect this kind of mechanism to exist. If you remove the mechanism then expecting a short-term drop in player numbers seems reasonable. It's very much unknown to what extent player numbers would recover and in what time frame. Can the game afford another "5+ years" period to observe the outcome? Seems unlikely. If the short-term drop in numbers is severe enough you can drive the rest away just due to low overall numbers and uncertainty of the recovery.

 

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And you guys think somebody is going to pay attention to this and take it seriously and then suddenly have an epiphany and say to him self . .you know what . .rather than destroy the entire economic premise of war thunder, lets just fix bombers because its a lot easier than simply ignoring the forum?

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5 hours ago, Twisted said:

And you guys think somebody is going to pay attention to this and take it seriously and then suddenly have an epiphany and say to him self . .you know what . .rather than destroy the entire economic premise of war thunder, lets just fix bombers because its a lot easier than simply ignoring the forum?

 

One of the messages I often read is love of the game, not love of winning.

 

Remove the drive and stress of winning the match the focus shifts on the engagement/mission.

 

 

Put it this way: 

Zombers are relentless because not only want to bomb, but must win the match.

If there is no extra bonus on winning, why but ones balls in suicide runs when it does not make a difference.  

The emphases shifts from winning the match to completing the mission (RTB)

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5 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Put it this way: 

Zombers are relentless because not only want to bomb, but must win the match.

If there is no extra bonus on winning, why but ones balls in suicide runs when it does not make a difference.  

The emphases shifts from winning the match to completing the mission (RTB)

I bet that even w/o winning bombers still make much more SL/RP than any other type of planes. As long as bombers in SB are easiest way to grind people will do so.

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8 hours ago, chmooreck said:

 

But it should allow all available planes (maxed) without grinding part - so no go for snail business.

 

Grind will be there.  Perhaps add a small participation bonus.

 

Point is players focus on the game, not the score.

3 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

I bet that even w/o winning bombers still make much more SL/RP than any other type of planes. As long as bombers in SB are easiest way to grind people will do so.

 

That must be adjusted too, not saying only removing the win bonus

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1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

 

One of the messages I often read is love of the game, not love of winning.

 

Remove the drive and stress of winning the match the focus shifts on the engagement/mission.

 

 

Put it this way: 

Zombers are relentless because not only want to bomb, but must win the match.

If there is no extra bonus on winning, why but ones balls in suicide runs when it does not make a difference.  

The emphases shifts from winning the match to completing the mission (RTB)

 

I think you are intentionally starting to misinterpret what people are saying, Gaijin is not going to change bombers, we get it and we get why.

 

People love air sims because they love flying and are intrigued by it, Air sims are unique in that they can simulate pretty much all of it, minus the Gz and seat of the pant pressure, I have played with the idea of an air compressor whoopee cushion plugged into a USB  that would inflate and deflate to simulate that pressure, but the fear of it exploding gave me cause for thought.

 

There is no great cause for confusion here, as the matter is excruciatingly clear, you have one group of people who are playing by the complete rules and one group who are play by kiddy rules.

 

Thats like having a one legged race and allowing certain participants who bribed the referee, to run with both legs, or allowing one participant in an MMA match to wear body Armour and deliver low blows and bite and scratch and the other to follow full rules, or allow people with a motor cycle to participate in a cycle race.

 

Now the people who love aviation and flying and who have spent hours and hours learning the game and all its nuances feel quite obviously cheated when somebody who has no clue as to what aviation is about and has no interest in flying what so ever, breezes through and ruins what was a fun fair game.

 

What do I mean by a fun fair game?

 

In combat flight sims, fun is a rip roaring hell for leather dogfight, and the fun of it is the competition of matching your skills with another pilots, and win or lose, you know its fair and you gave it your best.

 

Your idea of fun seems to be to find the best boxer in the division, tie both hands behind his back, put him in the ring with a bunch losers in full Armour who have no rules, watch them destroy every know rule of the game  and then even rig the point system so there is no way to lose, and when everybody looks up says . .thats not boxing . .thats a farce

they are told, they actually don't know how to box in reality and even if people don't know how to box they should be allowed to and should have a chance to win because everybody should be allowed to participate, when actually the truth is, they just paid of the ref.

 

So all this moaning and groaning has been going on for 5 years now . .if you still can't fnd the words to correctly describe the problem, I suggest find a cubicle next to commander sloth :lol2: 

 

Edited by Twisted
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10 minutes ago, Twisted said:

People love air sims because they love flying and are intrigued by it, Air

 

That is the entire point.

11 minutes ago, Twisted said:

you have one group of people who are playing by the complete rules and one group who are play by kiddy rules.

Inaccurate

Those who play for the immersion, like you.

Those who play for the $L and RP.

 

How many EC players come from AB/RB?  Hordes of them, seems to be the entire reasons for Zombers.

And often organized Zomber teams.

Zombers goal is to WIN the match, earn that Winner's 120% RP and 67% SL gain that more than compensates for the 50% lost by bailing (save time not RTB).

 

Get rid of that Winner's bonus and now bailing is not a good idea, better to RTB.

 

Players in general are no longer looking at score, instead looking for challenging engagements.  The Win is defeating your opponent, not the bonus.

5 minutes ago, nazradu2 said:

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Me in the white.  ;) 

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15 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

 

Inaccurate

Those who play for the immersion, like you.

Those who play for the $L and RP.

 

 

How can you say inaccurate?

 

Those us us who  play for immersion and for all the reality, play by a set of rules which are the definition of sim. 

 

Those who supposedly play for SL and RP,don't play by sim rules they play 3rd person, they have clown FMs, they have synchronized gunners, they simply bomb and bail, yet the scoring mechanism rewards them and and allows them to win the game and they get the big rewards . . .how?

 

In what universe can you claim, they are the same rules?

Edited by Twisted
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2 hours ago, Twisted said:

Those who supposedly play for SL and RP,don't play by sim rules they play 3rd person, they have clown FMs, they have synchronized gunners, they simply bomb and bail, yet the scoring mechanism rewards them and and allows them to win the game and they get the big rewards . . .how?

 

Rules are set by the game, the parameters created by game developers.

 

To expect players to limit themselves from what is possible is wishful thinking.  IOW, Zombers are not breaking any rules, even if most of us think they do.

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2 hours ago, Twisted said:

How can you say inaccurate?

Kind of is as different people have different definitions of fun.

Some of us prefer full of action fighter dogfight and some prefer boring to vomit point 3rdPV view and space mashing.

 

However - as you said, play rules are different for different groups of players and due to this one of the group have no more fun playing the game.

 

So yes - i still want to see bombers in the game (preferably with some changes to the game mode where bombing run will require a bit more skill and effort than what we have now), but i also want even playing field.

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5 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

the parameters created by game developers.

Well then, they f..ed up.

Due to their decisions, player base that the mode was addressed to is getting smaller and frustrated with every passing day.

Soon they may find out that instead of SIM mode they have PVE for bombers.

We are approaching point of no return. Fighter players will leave and won't come back as we can see clear message from GJ which is "suck it up cause we won't change a thing" - translation: we don't care as long as those zombers bring profit.

 

As you said - they may not be breaking rules created by devs, but they takes all fun out of the game for other players. Players that the mode was supposed to be for in first place.

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10 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

Rules are set by the game, the parameters created by game developers.

 

To expect players to limit themselves from what is possible is wishful thinking.  IOW, Zombers are not breaking any rules, even if most of us think they do.

 

7 minutes ago, Amyel said:

Kind of is as different people have different definitions of fun.

Some of us prefer full of action fighter dogfight and some prefer boring to vomit point 3rdPV view and space mashing.

 

However - as you said, play rules are different for different groups of players and due to this one of the group have no more fun playing the game.

 

So yes - i still want to see bombers in the game (preferably with some changes to the game mode where bombing run will require a bit more skill and effort than what we have now), but i also want even playing field.

 

 

And so why don't we level the playing field and allow the fighters also to fly in 3rd person view, since it seems that the defination of simulator is not cockpit mode?

 

Let me answer that for you  :lol2: 

 

Those modes is called RB and AB . . .SIM mode is where you are locked in cockpit, if you cannot fly in cockpit mode, you have AB and RB

 

The Primary premise for Simulator mode is "Locked in cockpit view" and everybody should be.

 

If you are unable to operate an aircraft in that mode, it should not be allowed in SIM.

 

Its really as simple as that

 

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1 minute ago, Twisted said:

 

 

 

And so why don't we level the playing field and allow the fighters also to fly in 3rd person view, since it seems that the defination of simulator is not cockpit mode?

 

Let me answer that for you  :lol2: 

 

Those modes is called RB and AB . . .SIM mode is where you are locked in cockpit, if you cannot fly in cockpit mode, you have AB and RB

 

The Primary premise for Simulator mode is "Locked in cockpit view" and everybody should be.

 

If you are unable to operate an aircraft in that mode, it should not be allowed in SIM.

 

Its really as simple as that

 

Don't get me wrong man - i'm all up for it! This is sth i'd love to see.

I'm not advocating anything else.

If that can be achieved - yeah, keep the bombers in game. I guess even more changes will be required to economy later to let players progress further in the game wihout being forced to go to other modes to make some SL surplus.

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Just now, Amyel said:

Don't get me wrong man - i'm all up for it! This is sth i'd love to see.

I'm not advocating anything else.

If that can be achieved - yeah, keep the bombers in game. I guess even more changes will be required to economy later to let players progress further in the game wihout being forced to go to other modes to make some SL surplus.

 

Not all :), I have spent 4 years on the MOD queue because of the same issue, I am merely making a point.

 

The solution is simple and obvious as it was 5 years ago, yet it will not be implemented. Gaijin went ahead and made place holder cockpits and even turret views, but it did not enforce them.

 

The reason is simply this, Bombers are a Warthunder's Pay2Win component. 

 

These heart felt discussions and soul searching and ifs then and elses are all nonsense as its not going to change.

 

We should be arguing for better rewards for fighters, and more missions and more modes and stop bleeding over bombers, these people or only fooling themselves and paying for us to have a great time, we need to learn to get on with it, in spite of them.

 

I just had my fill of the sobs of anguish and crocodile tears from a now obviously intentional business decision, which is not going to change.

 

There are a million suggested solutions, non of them will replace the revenue stream.

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37 minutes ago, Amyel said:

Well then, they f..ed up.

Due to their decisions, player base that the mode was addressed to is getting smaller and frustrated with every passing day.

Soon they may find out that instead of SIM mode they have PVE for bombers.

We are approaching point of no return. Fighter players will leave and won't come back as we can see clear message from GJ which is "suck it up cause we won't change a thing" - translation: we don't care as long as those zombers bring profit.

 

As you said - they may not be breaking rules created by devs, but they takes all fun out of the game for other players. Players that the mode was supposed to be for in first place.

 

Absolutely they created a massive SNAFU.

And it MUST be fixed for the sake of the community.

The current SB rules are horribly broken.

 

Fixing the system needs everything to be looked at, not just 2 or 3 features.  

 

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24 minutes ago, Twisted said:

The reason is simply this, Bombers are a Warthunder's Pay2Win component. 

 

IMHO that is a wrong assumption.

GJ is constantly trying to balance the game, there is plenty of times when fighters dominated, then bombers did.

We all know GJ has random quality control, often releasing new units/features that break the game.

 

Better to assume it was a FUBAR and work on a fix (and yes, I hate how long those fixes take....)

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2 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

IMHO that is a wrong assumption.

GJ is constantly trying to balance the game, there is plenty of times when fighters dominated, then bombers did.

We all know GJ has random quality control, often releasing new units/features that break the game.

 

Better to assume it was a FUBAR and work on a fix (and yes, I hate how long those fixes take....)

 

Pay2Win is exactly what it is.

 

1. People who completely lack the skill to participate in this particular mode are allowed to play dumbed down vehicles and shoot other players with a mouse.

2. They are given exceptional rewards for the easiest of tasks and are allowed to have a significant impact on the out come of the game,

3. They are allowed to circumvent the need to display even the slight bit of skill in a cockpit fighter and are allowed to spawn in  strategic bombers regardless of Spawn points and timers they can spam them,

4. 0% difficulty in flight and 100% Accuracy in Bombs, 3rd person view and synchronized gunners and auto-stabilized horizon.

5.They are no longer coming to grind out vehicles and SP and RP and then go back to AB and RB to fly fighters, this is their home.

6. They learn nothing, participate in nothing, just mindlessly mash the space bar and spend money till they are bored and find something else to spend their money on

 

I am not saying that this strategy is a profitable one or a good one or even an intelligent one, I am simply saying that Pay2Win is what it is and as long as it exists, War thunder is not Pay2Progress. Can you pay2 progress, sure you can, you can even play for Free, but if you have a mind to do so, you can Pay2win and destroy every single game mode and new development in the Mode that should require the most skill, while your only skill is a credit card and that makes it  Pay2Win.

Edited by Twisted
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On 10/07/2019 at 15:14, Pony51 said:

 

Can always try.

 

Been wondering if this is possible, get rid of the Win Reward part of EC?

No Reward bonus, no +120SL +69RP, and no 150,000 match points.

Just 3 hours and play for fun, not score.

And you could rename the game "Cliffs of Dover, Beyond Blitz, and have the same type of crowds.

 

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2 hours ago, Twisted said:

Pay2Win is exactly what it is.

 

1. People who completely lack the skill to participate in this particular mode are allowed to play dumbed down vehicles and shoot other players with a mouse.

2. They are given exceptional rewards for the easiest of tasks and are allowed to have a significant impact on the out come of the game,

3. They are allowed to circumvent the need to display even the slight bit of skill in a cockpit fighter and are allowed to spawn in  strategic bombers regardless of Spawn points and timers they can spam them,

4. 0% difficulty in flight and 100% Accuracy in Bombs, 3rd person view and synchronized gunners and auto-stabilized horizon.

5.They are no longer coming to grind out vehicles and SP and RP and then go back to AB and RB to fly fighters, this is their home.

6. They learn nothing, participate in nothing, just mindlessly mash the space bar and spend money till they are bored and find something else to spend their money on

 

I am not saying that this strategy is a profitable one or a good one or even an intelligent one, I am simply saying that Pay2Win is what it is and as long as it exists, War thunder is not Pay2Progress. Can you pay2 progress, sure you can, you can even play for Free, but if you have a mind to do so, you can Pay2win and destroy every single game mode and new development in the Mode that should require the most skill, while your only skill is a credit card and that makes it  Pay2Win.

 

One does not need Premium to Zomber and earn profit.

You do highlight the issues well, though.

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8 hours ago, Pony51 said:

 

One does not need Premium to Zomber and earn profit.

You do highlight the issues well, though.

 

Like I said, one can play entirely for free, if you have the dedication and the desire. Which brings us to the second layer in the problem.

 

There is a player who plays for free in a fighter, where each kill is a battle, he has to fight all sorts of players, he has to hunt for targets, seek and destroy. For a new player, who is still learning  . . .its a really steep challenge. Each kill is hard to come by and upgrading each aircraft module by module takes many many many hours. There are lots of really good players out there, then there are squads, there is the inherent imbalance between axis and allies and the imbalance caused by time zones, and then there is the challenge of actually learning ACM and applying it.

 

Then there is the Tri-Cycle Hero happily pedaling around in the midst of a GP Motocross, winning the game and getting great rewards for not falling off. They don't even have the challenge of making a proper bombing run by maintaining an attitude and speed on a static target.

 

As an individual, I don't really care, I am through the grind, when I want to take down a bomber, I have plenty of tools, and if I fail, because his 20 synchronized turrets shoot me from a mile off,it does not cause me any great distress, there was no contest of skill or ability, Win or lose the game makes no difference to me, I make enough in SL and RP to fund whatever venture I have in mind, I get a real kick from tournaments, where some really awesome pilots regularly school me in 1 vs 1 and ACM and every now and then, I even get some GE and Boosters. I have all the tiers open to me and all the aircrfat, there is always something fun for me to do.

 

So if the object was to distress players like me, I have to say, the plan failed dismally, I have had 7 years of fantastic fun and am really looking forward to the new jets, especially the Mig-21.

 

I have been playing SIMs since they first came out and I have pretty much seen them all, I can safely argue that War thunder is one of the best I have ever seen in the totality of its offering and it can easily be a market leader, both in reputation and in player base.

 

Me, I really love WarThunder.

 

Yet, it has been like watching the most beautiful and desirable woman in the world in a low budget SAW movie, sitting on the bathroom floor hacking away at her own ankle, insisting that this is a good entertainment. :dntknw: . . . .its really really cringy

 

So have at it, at this point, War Thunder is only hurting it self. it has been 5 years, you are still having the same conversation.

Edited by Twisted
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