T-34 Model 1943: Last of the Legend

[kleinerPanzer 648]

What is commonly called the T-34 Model 1943 was the last major modification of T-34 with the 76 mm gun to be produced, with production running from the end of 1942 up into spring of 1944. While initial production resembled the Model 1942 very closely, starting from mid-1943, the Model 1943's most distinct feature was added: the cupola.

 

A mid-to-late production Model 1943. The wheels seem to be replaced with newer ones. The tracks on the upper hull should not be present either.

 

The model-naming system for Soviet tanks is generally agreed as a post-war creation to help documentation. Throughout production, changes were made gradually, with some major ones (such as new guns and turrets), and a lot of minor ones (such as tow hooks, bolt placement, and fender shape). This means the Model-naming system is not a clear-cut between different variants, but more of a general grouping. This, combined with the various factories producing different components at different times leads to a large amount of discrepancies with naming variants.

 

Most western sources bundle the Model 1942 and Model 1943 into one category, simply as Model 1943.

 

OVERVIEW

While the T-34 Model 1943 underwent a series of changes through its production (as seen in the History section), the defining features of the late-production models were: a commander's cupola, cylindrical fuel drum on the hull sides, a 5-speed transmission, a 20-mm-thick roof, and the angular shape for the nose of the tank. 

 

In terms of performance, its weaponry and fire control is identical to the T-34 Model 1942, while the mobility is equivalent to that of the T-34-85. This vehicle would fit nicely at BR 3.7, as it doesn't offer a significant enough advantage over the Model 1942 to warrant a higher battle rating.

 

Turret

Spoiler

A photograph of a Finnish-captured Model 1943 with the cupola.

A comparison between the PT-4-7, PTK-5, and Mk. IV periscopes.

The cupolas and periscopes are clearly visible on these Model 1943s. Some T-34-85s are also present.

Hull

Spoiler

The angled nose and fuel drums can be seen in this photograph.

Once again, the angled front hull and fuel drums can be seen, as well as the absence of spare track at the end of the fenders. The periscopes on this example are not of standard arrangement.

A captured Model 1943 showing the mounting points for the fuel drums. It is hard to tell whether or not the nose is of the angled or rounded type. This tank also has twin PTK-5 periscopes like the previous example.

Another captured example showing the mounting points for the fuel tanks. The spare tracks on the fenders are still present.

 

HISTORY

Production of the familiar Hexagonal turret of the T-34 Model 1942 began in April 1942. This was a substantial improvement over the original rounded turret, providing a more ergonomic interior. However, the same troubles of the 2-man turret crew and subpar vision devices remained. 

 

In August 1942, trials of a new transmission, idler, and cupola were conducted. After testing, only the new transmission was approved for production, while the idler and cupola underwent further testing. Additionally, various other improvements, such as new engine ventilation, a 20-mm thick roof, and new armor welding techniques, led to the creation of an overall superior tank. The mass production of this specification of tank began in December 1942, and was the new T-34 Model 1943. The weight of this tank was increased to 30 tons from the 29.8 of the Model 1942. It was probably at the same time that the box-shaped rear stowage bins were deleted from production at Factory No. 183 UTZ, although they would still be found on Factory No. 112's late T-34 Model 1941/42 tanks.

 

In June 1943, production of the Hexagonal turret with the cupola was approved for production. The cupola contained five vision slits in the sides. The hatch was split into two pieces. An additional Mk. IV periscope was also added for the loader, mirroring the PTK-5 periscope for the gunner.*  Production likely started first at Factory No. 183 UTZ, but quickly spread to the other 5 factories then producing the T-34. By decree, all factories should have produced T-34 Model 1943s with the cupola by September.

 

Despite the fact that the cupola was much needed as an addition to the T-34 to improve its battlefield functionality, it turned out to be very sub-par. The vision devices were too high up to be usable, and the two-piece hatch created all sorts of problems. Most of all, the gunner-commander which used the cupola was too busy firing the main gun to actually make use of the cupola, effectively making it useless. 

 

At some other point along the production period, presumably in early 1944, the round fuel drums as found on the T-34-85s were also added to Model 1943 production (with the cupola). Later on, the spare tracks stored on the fenders were deleted, as on the T-34-85. T-34-85s began production in January 1944, while the Model 1943 ended technically in September, although the vast majority stopped in March. Also around this time, likely coinciding with T-34-85 production, the nose of the hull was changed from the rounded shape to the angular shape. This setup of the T-34 Model 1943 was how production was completed. This final model of T-34 Model 1943 is the variant I am suggesting.

 

*This was the production order. However, it was not uncommon to see twin PTK-5 periscopes or twin Mk. IV periscopes, as some of the photographic examples show.

 

STATISTICS

Crew	4 (Driver, Gunner, Loader, Radio Operator)
Length	6.07 m
Width	2.95 m
Height	2.604 m
Ground Clearance	0.4 m
Weight	30.0 t (sources vary by +/- 1.0 t)
Ground Pressure	~0.7 kg/cm2 (no agreement between sources)
Track-Ground Contact	3.84 m long, 0.55 m wide
Engine	V-2-34 V12 diesel 500 hp at 1800 rpm
Power-to-Weight Ratio	16.6 hp/t
Transmission	5 forward, 1 reverse
Speed	55 km/h (road), 30 km/h (cross-country)
Fuel	540 L + 180 L external
Range	300 km (road), 180 km (cross-country)
Wall-Climbing	0.7 m
Trench-Crossing	2.5 m
Max Gradient	35%
Max Fording Depth	1.3 m
Armor	Hull:  45 mm front  45 mm sides  45 mm rear  20 mm roof  13 mm floor Turret:  45 mm front  45 mm sides  45 mm rear  45 mm cupola  20 mm roof
Smoke	None
Armament	1x F-34 2x DT
Primary	76,2 mm F-34 (77 Rounds) (others say 100 Rounds) Elevation: Manual, -5 to +28° Traverse: Powered, 360°, 17.5°/s (this is Gaijin's stock number; sources do not agree at all)
Secondary	7,62 mm DT x2 (1890 Rounds) Coaxial: Traverse: Same as primary armament Elevation: Same as primary armament Hull:  Traverse: Manual, +/- 12°  Elevation: Manual, -6 to +16°

A fake stat card I made

Spoiler

 

MINUTIA

Spoiler

1 - The T-34 Model 1943 could be fitted with various types of road wheels. Using S = Spoke, s = Spoke without tires, and D = Dish, the following arrangements are seen:

SSSSS

SDDDS

SsSsS

SDSDS

DDDDD

SSsSS

DDSDD

and several more rarer types

2 - Fenders were always rounded

3 - Tracks were not fitted to the front hull

4 - The round-edged turrets produced with the steel press also existed in Model 1943 standard, but is not what is being suggested

 

SOURCES

 

1 - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Т-34

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

3 - Soviet Tanks in Combat 1941-1945: The T-28, T-34, T-34-85 and T-44 Medium Tanks by Steven J. Zaloga, Jim Kinnear, Andrey Aksenov & Aleksandr Koshchavtsev 

4 - https://erenow.net/ww/russian-armour-in-the-second-world-war/3.php

5 - ТАНК Т-34 РУКОВОДСТВО ВТОРОЕ ИСПРАВЛЕННОЕ ИЗДАНИЕ ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО НАРОДНОГО КОМИССАРИАТА ОБОРОНЫ МОСКВА - 1944

6 - https://ww2-weapons.com/t-34-tank/

7 - http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_t-34_production.html

8 - http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/03/t-34-improvements-1943.html

9 - http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/09/tank-improvements.html

10 - http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2015/10/t-34-commander-cupolas.html

Edited October 25, 2020 by kleinerPanzer
Replaced images with external embeds

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,857]

+1 for the last major 76mm T-34.  

[Valcour 1,141]

This is a obvious choice for inclusion  +1.  Not that more WW2 content is likely to be added.  Not shiny and new enough.

 

[WT_CT_Center 2,395]

man, i miss the days when we got ww2 content in this game for already existing trees

gaijin please!

[kamikazi21358 998]

I thought the T-34-85(DT) was the T-34 obr. 1943?

I really thought it went

T-34 obr. 1942 (T-34/76)

T-34-85 obr. 1943 (T-34/85(DT))

T-34-85 obr. 1944 (T-34/85 in game)

then 1945+

Or was there two 1943s?

Like a

T-34 obr. 1942

T-34 obr. 1943

T-34-85 obr. 1943

T-34-85 obr. 1944

1945+

Or am I just crazy?

 

 

Anyways, +1, I believe all produced variants of tanks should be in game, and as I love the T-34s, this should be in game.

 

 

As I personally think the placement of the T-34 STZ in game is weird (you go from 1940/41 to 1942 with new turret, back to 1941 with just more armour), what if they made these versions unfoldered, but as there are more than one version of the STZ not in game, and the one in game is is odd, what if instead —

 

T-34 obr. 1940

> no idea if STZ exists, probably not

 

T-34 obr. 1941

> T-34 obr. 1941 STZ

 

T-34 obr. 1942

> T-34 obr. 1942 STZ

 

T-34 obr. 1943

> T-34 obr. 1943 STZ if it exists

 

Maybe something like this could make the tech tree more streamline?

[kleinerPanzer 648]

35 minutes ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I thought the T-34-85(DT) was the T-34 obr. 1943?

I really thought it went

T-34 obr. 1942 (T-34/76)

T-34-85 obr. 1943 (T-34/85(DT))

T-34-85 obr. 1944 (T-34/85 in game)

then 1945+

Or was there two 1943s?

Like a

T-34 obr. 1942

T-34 obr. 1943

T-34-85 obr. 1943

T-34-85 obr. 1944

1945+

Or am I just crazy?

 

 

Anyways, +1, I believe all produced variants of tanks should be in game, and as I love the T-34s, this should be in game.

 

 

As I personally think the placement of the T-34 STZ in game is weird (you go from 1940/41 to 1942 with new turret, back to 1941 with just more armour), what if they made these versions unfoldered, but as there are more than one version of the STZ not in game, and the one in game is is odd, what if instead —

 

T-34 obr. 1940

> no idea if STZ exists, probably not

 

T-34 obr. 1941

> T-34 obr. 1941 STZ

 

T-34 obr. 1942

> T-34 obr. 1942 STZ

 

T-34 obr. 1943

> T-34 obr. 1943 STZ if it exists

 

Maybe something like this could make the tech tree more streamline?

T-34 production is complicated, but the models of T-34 and T-34-84 we're not intertwined. So yes, there was a T-34 Mod. 1943 and T-34-85 Mod. 1943 (the D-5T).

 

When you say the STZ, I assume you mean the uparmoring process in general, the example obviously being the T-34E STZ in the tech tree. This extra armor was ordered in January 1942, and only a few hundred examples were produced by all 3 factories (No.112, STZ, UTZ). These were almost exclusively built on the Model 1941/42 hull and frame, using mixed components of Model 1942 (i.e. driver's hatch) and Model 1941 (i.e. turret). Through Model 1941/42 production, more and more Model 1943 parts got incorporated, such as the round transmission hatch and the new hull machine gun. 1941/42 production began in ~November 1941. I'm April 1942, UTZ converted fully to Model 1942 with the hexagonal turret, while STZ and No.112 kept the older type. STZ was destroyed in October 1942 during the battle of Stalingrad. No.112 produced Model 1941/42 tanks up until ~June 1943, where they directly switched to Model 1943 production. 

 

The most streamlined organization would be this

 

T-34 1940

T-34 1941

T-34 1941/42

T-34E 1941/42 (STZ)

T-34 1942

T-34 1943

 

There were at least two examples of the uparmored 1941/42 hulls being fitted with the hexagonal turret (as on T-34 747(r)), but these were very rare and made from leftovers at UTZ. 

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[JEI2 5,766]

+1

[PrussianOwl 442]

+1

[kamikazi21358 998]

On 16/07/2019 at 09:53, HugoTroop said:

When you say the STZ, I assume you mean the uparmoring process in general, the example obviously being the T-34E STZ in the tech tree. This extra armor was ordered in January 1942, and only a few hundred examples were produced by all 3 factories (No.112, STZ, UTZ). These were almost exclusively built on the Model 1941/42 hull and frame, using mixed components of Model 1942 (i.e. driver's hatch) and Model 1941 (i.e. turret). Through Model 1941/42 production, more and more Model 1943 parts got incorporated, such as the round transmission hatch and the new hull machine gun. 1941/42 production began in ~November 1941. I'm April 1942, UTZ converted fully to Model 1942 with the hexagonal turret, while STZ and No.112 kept the older type. STZ was destroyed in October 1942 during the battle of Stalingrad. No.112 produced Model 1941/42 tanks up until ~June 1943, where they directly switched to Model 1943 production. 

Yeah, I messed up, I forgot that the STZ related to the factory and not the uparmoured tank.

 

I should restate properly, just like the T-34E STZ in game, I have seen photos of a T-34 1942 model, (or maybe 1943), but a T-34 (1942) or hexagonal T-34/76 with the additional unarmoured hull, so it is possible to have a T-34E (1942) in game?

 

Anyways, to update,

On 16/07/2019 at 09:53, HugoTroop said:

The most streamlined organization would be this

 

T-34 1940

T-34 1941

T-34 1941/42

T-34E 1941/42 (STZ)

T-34 1942

T-34 1943

 

There were at least two examples of the uparmored 1941/42 hulls being fitted with the hexagonal turret (as on T-34 747(r)), but these were very rare and made from leftovers at UTZ. 

to use > as an ‘expandable folder’, maybe something like

 

T-34 (1940)

T-34 (1941)

> T-34 (1941/1942)

> T-34E (1941/1942)

T-34 (1942)

> T-34E (1942)

T-34 (1943)

 

Then to continue on because why not,

 

T-34-57 (unfortunately weird to jump from a T-34 (1943) to a 1940 with a 57mm, but otherwise there be a 1.0 jump from the 1943 to the T-34-85, so I understand why)

T-34-85 (1944)

T-34-85 (1945)

T-34-85 (1946)

> T-34-85 (1960)

> T-34-85M

T-44 series

 

Excluding presumably premiums like the T-34c and T-34M, etc.

but maybe something similar to this could be, in the farther future, be the ‘final’ T-34 line?

[OddPhenomena 1,015]

6 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

Yeah, I messed up, I forgot that the STZ related to the factory and not the uparmoured tank.

 

I should restate properly, just like the T-34E STZ in game, I have seen photos of a T-34 1942 model, (or maybe 1943), but a T-34 (1942) or hexagonal T-34/76 with the additional unarmoured hull, so it is possible to have a T-34E (1942) in game?

 

Anyways, to update,

to use > as an ‘expandable folder’, maybe something like

 

T-34 (1940)

T-34 (1941)

> T-34 (1941/1942)

> T-34E (1941/1942)

T-34 (1942)

> T-34E (1942)

T-34 (1943)

 

Then to continue on because why not,

 

T-34-57 (unfortunately weird to jump from a T-34 (1943) to a 1940 with a 57mm, but otherwise there be a 1.0 jump from the 1943 to the T-34-85, so I understand why)

T-34-85 (1944)

T-34-85 (1945)

T-34-85 (1946)

> T-34-85 (1960)

> T-34-85M

T-44 series

  

Excluding presumably premiums like the T-34c and T-34M, etc.

but maybe something similar to this could be, in the farther future, be the ‘final’ T-34 line?

I would really like to have some of the Cold War modernized versions of the T-34, with the smoke canisters and better engine. 

[kleinerPanzer 648]

6 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I should restate properly, just like the T-34E STZ in game, I have seen photos of a T-34 1942 model, (or maybe 1943), but a T-34 (1942) or hexagonal T-34/76 with the additional unarmoured hull, so it is possible to have a T-34E (1942) in game?

Yeah there is photographic evidence of at least two Model 1942s with the extra armor. However, they were ridiculously rare, with probably only 5-10 built, so it's more likely to be a premium than a tech tree vehicle.

 

I should also note that they were technically built on the Model 1941/42 hull, with some of the intermittent features such as the old hull machine gun and transmission access hatch, since the uparmored hulls were all constructed in January-February 1942 (when the 1941/42-type hull was in production), with the turret was fitted later.

 

7 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

T-34 (1940)

T-34 (1941)

> T-34 (1941/1942)

> T-34E (1941/1942)

T-34 (1942)

> T-34E (1942)

T-34 (1943)

 

Then to continue on because why not,

 

T-34-57 (unfortunately weird to jump from a T-34 (1943) to a 1940 with a 57mm, but otherwise there be a 1.0 jump from the 1943 to the T-34-85, so I understand why)

T-34-85 (1944)

T-34-85 (1945)

T-34-85 (1946)

> T-34-85 (1960)

> T-34-85M

T-44 series

As for this, I think people would be annoyed by the number of similar tanks they have to progress through. I think the following would go better for progression:

 

T-34 (1940)

T-34 (1941)

>T-34 (1941/42)

>T-34E (1941/42)

T-34 (1942)

>T-34 (1943)

T-34-57 (1941)

T-34-85 (1943)

T-34-85 (1944)

>T-34-85 (1945)

>T-34-85 (1946)

T-34-85 (1960)

>T-34-85 (1969)

T-44

[kamikazi21358 998]

13 hours ago, SlyOldSnoopy said:

I would really like to have some of the Cold War modernized versions of the T-34, with the smoke canisters and better engine. 

Me too, I like ‘modernised’ vehicles for some reason, something about upgrading a older tank to a mutant that is the best it could be I think is cool, I would love to see tanks like the T-34-85M, IS-2M, IS-3M, T-44S/M/MS, T-55/62M/AM series, etc.

 

Which is also why I think nations like Sweden and Israel would be fun to play, with tanks like the Strv 104/105, Magach series, Sho’t, M-50 series and M-51, Tiran, etc.

 

 

And this might be a reason I want to play the T-34 (1943) too, “best mass-produced T-34/76” sounds like a fun title.

 

 

12 hours ago, HugoTroop said:

Yeah there is photographic evidence of at least two Model 1942s with the extra armor. However, they were ridiculously rare, with probably only 5-10 built, so it's more likely to be a premium than a tech tree vehicle.I

 

Fair point, but also with the T-34-57 (1942), possible T-34c (2 of them, and would be more unique premiums), T-34 prototype, T-34 (1941 guards), etc, it might start to get too much with the number of premium T-34/76s.  So either might be fine.

12 hours ago, HugoTroop said:

As for this, I think people would be annoyed by the number of similar tanks they have to progress through. I think the following would go better for progression:

 

T-34 (1940)

T-34 (1941)

>T-34 (1941/42)

>T-34E (1941/42)

T-34 (1942)

>T-34 (1943)

T-34-57 (1941)

T-34-85 (1943)

T-34-85 (1944)

>T-34-85 (1945)

>T-34-85 (1946)

T-34-85 (1960)

>T-34-85 (1969)

T-44

Yes, but the only problem I have is the T-34 (1960),

 

1.  this brings in an interesting question, I have never seen a source linking the two, but I know multiple 85mm HEAT-FS shells were available in the 1960s, would there be anything whatsoever preventing the T-34-85 (1960) and M from firing HEAT-FS?  This would be really fun if so,

 

2. even if not, jumping from 1944 to 1960 back to 1944 would be a odd jump to do, especially when there are still 1940s vehicles as an option.

 

I think perhaps 

 

1943

1944

1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

1943

1944

1945

>1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

or 1943

1944

>1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44 

would be more logical:

 

1945: now that the 85mm has penetration similar to the Pz IV rather than it was, I personally find the 1944 lesser than the Panther D at 5.7, I think it suffers from Br compression and is more equal to tanks like the M36.  The 1945 with it’s increased turret traverse and minor features I think is the slight edge it needs to be a Panther D/T25 competitor.  It might make a good successor.

 

1946: with minor improvements, and given APCBC, I think it would be a great middle tanks between the WW2 T-34s and the T-44.  A better T-34, but now with the APCBC of the T-44, I think it could be in the range to compete with the Panther A and G, and not really a dramatic year jump or anything, it might be a perfect middle tank to transition with.

 

At least this is my perspective.

[PrussianOwl 442]

1 hour ago, kamikazi21358 said:

Me too, I like ‘modernised’ vehicles for some reason, something about upgrading a older tank to a mutant that is the best it could be I think is cool, I would love to see tanks like the T-34-85M, IS-2M, IS-3M, T-44S/M/MS, T-55/62M/AM series, etc.

 

Which is also why I think nations like Sweden and Israel would be fun to play, with tanks like the Strv 104/105, Magach series, Sho’t, M-50 series and M-51, Tiran, etc.

 

 

And this might be a reason I want to play the T-34 (1943) too, “best mass-produced T-34/76” sounds like a fun title.

 

 

 

Fair point, but also with the T-34-57 (1942), possible T-34c (2 of them, and would be more unique premiums), T-34 prototype, T-34 (1941 guards), etc, it might start to get too much with the number of premium T-34/76s.  So either might be fine.

Yes, but the only problem I have is the T-34 (1960),

 

1.  this brings in an interesting question, I have never seen a source linking the two, but I know multiple 85mm HEAT-FS shells were available in the 1960s, would there be anything whatsoever preventing the T-34-85 (1960) and M from firing HEAT-FS?  This would be really fun if so,

 

2. even if not, jumping from 1944 to 1960 back to 1944 would be a odd jump to do, especially when there are still 1940s vehicles as an option.

 

I think perhaps 

 

1943

1944

1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

1943

1944

1945

>1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

or 1943

1944

>1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44 

would be more logical:

 

1945: now that the 85mm has penetration similar to the Pz IV rather than it was, I personally find the 1944 lesser than the Panther D at 5.7, I think it suffers from Br compression and is more equal to tanks like the M36.  The 1945 with it’s increased turret traverse and minor features I think is the slight edge it needs to be a Panther D/T25 competitor.  It might make a good successor.

 

1946: with minor improvements, and given APCBC, I think it would be a great middle tanks between the WW2 T-34s and the T-44.  A better T-34, but now with the APCBC of the T-44, I think it could be in the range to compete with the Panther A and G, and not really a dramatic year jump or anything, it might be a perfect middle tank to transition with.

 

At least this is my perspective.

And the prototypes! A-20, aka BT-20, and A-32. A-34 is already in game as an event vehicle.

[kleinerPanzer 648]

11 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

Yes, but the only problem I have is the T-34 (1960),

 

1.  this brings in an interesting question, I have never seen a source linking the two, but I know multiple 85mm HEAT-FS shells were available in the 1960s, would there be anything whatsoever preventing the T-34-85 (1960) and M from firing HEAT-FS?  This would be really fun if so,

 

2. even if not, jumping from 1944 to 1960 back to 1944 would be a odd jump to do, especially when there are still 1940s vehicles as an option.

 

I think perhaps 

 

1943

1944

1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

1943

1944

1945

>1946

>1960

>1969

T-44,

 

or 1943

1944

>1945

1946

>1960

>1969

T-44 

would be more logical:

 

1945: now that the 85mm has penetration similar to the Pz IV rather than it was, I personally find the 1944 lesser than the Panther D at 5.7, I think it suffers from Br compression and is more equal to tanks like the M36.  The 1945 with it’s increased turret traverse and minor features I think is the slight edge it needs to be a Panther D/T25 competitor.  It might make a good successor.

 

1946: with minor improvements, and given APCBC, I think it would be a great middle tanks between the WW2 T-34s and the T-44.  A better T-34, but now with the APCBC of the T-44, I think it could be in the range to compete with the Panther A and G, and not really a dramatic year jump or anything, it might be a perfect middle tank to transition with.

 

At least this is my perspective.

Yeah, you're definitely right. I personally like your 2nd and 3rd options best. The 1944, 1945, and 1946 are all just a bit too similar performance-wise, even given the APCBC for the 1946, and it would seem rather tiresome to have to go through so many similar vehicles. Regardless, foldering the 1960 and 1969 with the others seems the best; an analog could be the SU-85 and SU-85M's foldering. It probably isn't a good idea to jump to 1960 then back to 1944, or to break up the T-34 and T-44 lines by placing the 1960 and 1969 after the T-44.

 

As for BR compression, it's just...quite the mess as a whole. Tanks such as the IS-2 (1943), Tiger E, M36, T25, T-34-85 (1944), Panther A, and Panther D simply cannot be considered properly-matched equals, but also can't really be moved up or down without turning them into clubbing machines or getting clubbed. I would personally love to see WWII tanks expanded to reach 9.0, and move everything else accordingly. Either that, or create new BRs, such as 5.8, or 5.6, or whatever, so that it can get all the benefits of playing as a 5.7 tank, but not get uptiered and stomped or downtier and club.

 

10 hours ago, PrussianOwl said:

And the prototypes! A-20, aka BT-20, and A-32. A-34 is already in game as an event vehicle.

Yes! This too. The transition from the BT-7 to T-50 to T-34 (1940) is too steep, and the Russians don't have a 3.0 lineup at all. These would be welcome additions. In fact, I'd like to see the low-tier tech tree rearranged a bit (plus some of my own suggestions):

BT-5

>BT-7

>BT-7A

T-50

A-20

A-32

T-34 (1940)

etc

 

T-26 (1933)

>T-26 (1939)

>T-26-4

T-35 (1938)

T-28 (1934)

>T-28E (1934)

T-28 (1938)

>T-28E (1938)

T-29 (various types)

KV-1 (1939)

KV-1 (1940)

KV-1 (1941)

KV-1 (1942)

T-150

etc

 

T-30 (DShK)

>T-30 (TNSh)

T-40 (DShK)

>T-40 (TNSh)

T-60

T-70

>T-70M

T-80

etc

 

SU-1-12 (aka SU-12)

SU-5-1

>SU-5-2

>SU-5-3 (this might be a bit unreasonable)

VMS-41 (aka VMC-41? ZiS-2 gun on ZiS-42 half-track chassis)

ZiS-30

SU-76

>SU-76M

SU-122

>SU-122-3

etc

 

3M GAZ AAA (there was a GAZ AAA fitted with a triple Maxim as well)

>4M GAZ AAA

DShK GAZ AAA

T-60Z

>T-70Z

>T-90

72-K GAZ MM

94-KM ZiS-12

YaG-10 (29-K)

SU-6

ZiS-43

~various ZSU-37 prototypes~

ZSU-37

etc

 

I would like to include most of the currently not implemented vehicles into some future suggestions, if they haven't already, but that's gonna take a lot of time...

[kamikazi21358 998]

6 hours ago, HugoTroop said:

Yeah, you're definitely right. I personally like your 2nd and 3rd options best. The 1944, 1945, and 1946 are all just a bit too similar performance-wise, even given the APCBC for the 1946, and it would seem rather tiresome to have to go through so many similar vehicles. Regardless, foldering the 1960 and 1969 with the others seems the best; an analog could be the SU-85 and SU-85M's foldering. It probably isn't a good idea to jump to 1960 then back to 1944, or to break up the T-34 and T-44 lines by placing the 1960 and 1969 after the T-44.

Thank you, and I agree that jumping back from T-34 to T-44 back to T-34 would be a bit weird too.  For example I think the T-54 > T-62 > T-55 > T-62M > T-72 transition is a bit weird too, I think it would be way more beneficial to have the T-54>55>62>72, it just makes more sense to do it more together.  (That, or I personally think it could totally work to have the T-54 > T-55 > T-72 > T-90, while unconnected to the T-10M, have the T-62 > T-64 > T-80 instead for the second MBT line.)

 

6 hours ago, HugoTroop said:

As for BR compression, it's just...quite the mess as a whole. Tanks such as the IS-2 (1943), Tiger E, M36, T25, T-34-85 (1944), Panther A, and Panther D simply cannot be considered properly-matched equals, but also can't really be moved up or down without turning them into clubbing machines or getting clubbed. I would personally love to see WWII tanks expanded to reach 9.0, and move everything else accordingly. Either that, or create new BRs, such as 5.8, or 5.6, or whatever, so that it can get all the benefits of playing as a 5.7 tank, but not get uptiered and stomped or downtier and club.

 

Perhaps you’ll find this interesting.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/discussions/0/1649918058723392717/

 

This is my “BR Decompression Suggestion”, a detailed explanation why BR compression exists 5.7-10.0 ground forces, a possible way to fix BR compression (decompression 5.7-10.0, also I suggest 7.3-10.0 jets), why this will benefit the game, etc.

 

It’s very TL;DR, it’s well over 10,000 words, (which Steam has 8k character limit per post, which is why it’s in ~10 comments), but I wanted to get it as descriptive and detailed as possible, to describe how I know this will benefit the game and to show I know what I’m talking about.

 

I suggest for reference, 10.0 tanks like the M1IP and T-80B should go about ~13.0, and the Leopard 2A5 and tanks of that strength possibly ~14.0.

 

 

 

But for the 5.7 region:

 

I propose doing a flex-tape commercial and sawing 5.7 in half,

 

5.3 for 5.3s,

 

low strength 5.7s (T-34-85, M36, previous low-strength 5.7s moved down like the ISU-152 and Tiger H1),

 

then “high strength” elite 5.7s like the IS-2, Tiger E, T25, and more go to 6.0 (a new 6.0), allowing lower strength 5.7s to be relevant again.

 

 

As for the T-34-85s, I did think “hey, this is perfect” in this system, because they do have their own possible places.  In fact, I actually used them in my suggestion, under the “benefits of BR decompression,” I pointed out that BR decompression allowed for “new in-between BRs to be created” “allowing for more room for potential future vehicles.”  One of the tanks I specifically used was the T-34-84 1945/1946, in this, without overshadowing the 1944, there could be BRs for these tanks to fit at —

 

T-34-85 (1943): 5.3 (normal)

T-34-85 (1944): 5.7 (low-strength 5.7)

T-34-85 (1945): 6.0 (high strength 6.0)

T-34-85 (1946): 6.3 (6.0 equiv, presumably with APCBC).

 

 

 

7 hours ago, HugoTroop said:

(plus some of my own suggestions):

BT-5

>BT-7

>BT-7A

T-50

I like your list, but I have to add,

there are a bunch of variants (prototypes and production) you missed about the BT-5/7, but even if ignoring those,

you forgot the best one: the BT-7M.

 

The BT-7M has increased engine power (+50 HP), an AA MG, I think small armour differences, and presumably can get APCR as well.  I think this would be an excellent addition, it could lower the gap too between the BT-7 and T-50.

 

[kleinerPanzer 648]

4 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

Perhaps you’ll find this interesting.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/discussions/0/1649918058723392717/

 

This is my “BR Decompression Suggestion”, a detailed explanation why BR compression exists 5.7-10.0 ground forces, a possible way to fix BR compression (decompression 5.7-10.0, also I suggest 7.3-10.0 jets), why this will benefit the game, etc.

 

It’s very TL;DR, it’s well over 10,000 words, (which Steam has 8k character limit per post, which is why it’s in ~10 comments), but I wanted to get it as descriptive and detailed as possible, to describe how I know this will benefit the game and to show I know what I’m talking about.

 

I suggest for reference, 10.0 tanks like the M1IP and T-80B should go about ~13.0, and the Leopard 2A5 and tanks of that strength possibly ~14.0.

Very nice read! (Yes I did go through basically all of it)

 

A few minor things to point out specifically regarding your Steam post before I respond to the content here:

M3A1 Stuart has been moved to 1.7/2.0 AB/RB, not that it changes what's said there

The T-55AM-1 no longer is sold with the Helicopter, and is $60 on its own. Again, doesn't mean anything in terms of your system

Under the T-34-85 vs T-44, there's a typo with the 76mm Jumbo

 

Overall, I love your idea. There are a few "problem areas" prior to 5.7 (namely 4.7/5.0), but, as you said, those are more of the exception rather than the status quo. I would gladly see decompression like this take effect, even if it does have a few hiccups. 

 

4 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I like your list, but I have to add,

there are a bunch of variants (prototypes and production) you missed about the BT-5/7, but even if ignoring those,

you forgot the best one: the BT-7M.

 

The BT-7M has increased engine power (+50 HP), an AA MG, I think small armour differences, and presumably can get APCR as well.  I think this would be an excellent addition, it could lower the gap too between the BT-7 and T-50.

Yep; I kinda rushed that. BT-IS and BT-SV tanks as well, and more T-26 variants could have been included. 

[kamikazi21358 998]

29 minutes ago, HugoTroop said:

Very nice read! (Yes I did go through basically all of it)

 

A few minor things to point out specifically regarding your Steam post before I respond to the content here:

M3A1 Stuart has been moved to 1.7/2.0 AB/RB, not that it changes what's said there

The T-55AM-1 no longer is sold with the Helicopter, and is $60 on its own. Again, doesn't mean anything in terms of your system

Under the T-34-85 vs T-44, there's a typo with the 76mm Jumbo

Thanks, I imagine not too many will read more than a quarter of it, so thank you.  But is all there hopefully, so hopefully people will see at least just enough to believe me.

 

Also thank you for the mistakes (I been working on this for ~8-10 months or so, so things have changed), I edited it where the next update to it will include the fixes.

 

31 minutes ago, HugoTroop said:

Yep; I kinda rushed that. BT-IS and BT-SV tanks as well, and more T-26 variants could have been included. 

Yeah I figured that what was up, but the BT-7 is my favourite tank in War Thunder and the BT-7M is the tank I want the most added, so I had to mention it just in case.

[SPANISH_AVENGER 11,788]

So... just like the T-34 1942 we already have ingame, but with a cupola...?

[kleinerPanzer 648]

10 hours ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

So... just like the T-34 1942 we already have ingame, but with a cupola...?

(As I answered on WT Live, since you were directed from there , I assume)

There is a new 5-speed transmission, giving the Model 1943 the same mobility as the T-34-85s.

[SPANISH_AVENGER 11,788]

16 minutes ago, HugoTroop said:

(As I answered on WT Live, since you were directed from there , I assume)

There is a new 5-speed transmission, giving the Model 1943 the same mobility as the T-34-85s.

 

I think what i like the most about this one is the angular edge of the hull nose, as you explain above xD

Also, if the transmission thing turns out to affect the mobility that greatly, then yeah, i think it would be different enough to add it to the game. Differences in the model and better mobility... yeah i can see it

[kamikazi21358 998]

Incase anybody didn’t notice, the T-34 obr. 1943 is in the Chinese tech tree.  Hopefully we’ll get a Russian version too.

[kleinerPanzer 648]

Unfortunately, it's only a pure clone of the Model 1942, meaning the extra speed and roof armor changes, among other differences, are not there.

[kamikazi21358 998]

30 minutes ago, HugoTroop said:

Unfortunately, it's only a pure clone of the Model 1942, meaning the extra speed and roof armor changes, among other differences, are not there.

In that case, you should go to the dev server bug section, and submit a bug report.  You do have the 2 book sources required it looks like.