Bourrasque class, France's first modern destroyers

[Arghail 1,220]

Bourrasque class, France's first modern destroyers

 

 

 

About this class and its interest in War Thunder

 

I wanted to make a suggestion about the Bourrasque class as I feel it is the perfect introduction destroyer for the French navy. Indeed, being a late 1920 design, it is contemporary to the German Leopard or the IJN Mutsuki, and it is the oldest French destroyer design which participated to WW2. While it may seem pretty powerful for the time, with its 6 torpedo tubes and its big four 130mm canons, it suffers from several drawbacks. First, it is big, bigger than most destroyers of the 1920's, and as such, it is less manoeuvrable and easier to hit. Its guns are really powerful, but have a fairly slow reload speed due to a complicated reloading system. Its speed is fairly average (33 knots at best), and it has very poor AA defense, much like the Mutsuki. Being quickly outdated compared to more modern design, I believe it would make an excellent 3.7 early destroyer for the French tech tree.

 

About the Bourrasque class

 

After WW1, the French navy realised that most of the light ships they had used during the Great war were too small for torpedo warfare, and unfit for sailing at high seas and in groups. Thus, the French navy staff started working on a new kind of ships, influenced by the British V and W class destroyers. After a couple years of debate, it was decided that a 1300 tons ship, armed with 130mm artillery and capable of sailing at 30 knots would be built. This was the new Bourrasque (or Simoun) class. Construction began in 1923. The first ship of that class, the Bourrasque, is launched in 1925 and armed the same year. It becomes operational in 1926. It is followed by 11 other ships, Cyclone, Mistral, Orage, Ouragan, Simoun, Siroco, Tempête, Tornade, Tramontane, Trombe, and Typhon. They are divided in various divisions, which sailed mostly in the Mediterranean sea during the late 1920's. When the Spanish civil war erupted, the ships were sent to evacuate French officials. To prove that they weren't helping neither side, the ships had to show a sign of neutrality. In the case of the French ships, it was a french flag on the shields of the guns.

 

During World War 2

 

During the first year of the Second World War, the ships were assigned to the FMO (West naval forces), and tasked with protecting convoys between the British isles and the French colonies. However, in 1940, on the ground the battle of France took a catastrophic turn with the fall of Sedan and the advance of the German army. That was when the Bourrasque ships were sent to Dunkirk to assist the evacuation of soldiers during operation Dynamo. They had different fates, following their situation at the end of the battle of Dunkerque.

 

Bourrasque : While evacuating soldiers from Dunkerque, it hit a mine on may 30th, and slowly sank with 600 passengers on board. 250 of them were lost during the sinking, along with 16 members of the crew.

Cyclone :  While coming to Dunkerque to assist the sinking Siroco, it was hit by a torpedo, and lost its entire bow. It was forced to go back to Cherbourg in reverse, sailing at 4 knots not to sink. It was scuttled to prevent its capture by the German on June 18th.

Mistral : After helping during the evacuation of Dunkerque, it was sent to Plymouth. The British attacked the ship, which was scuttled to prevent capture. Afterwards, it was repaired and used as an escort ship by the British navy. It was extensively modified in 1942. It was given back to the French in 1945, and dismantled shortly afterwards.

Orage : Sent to defend the city of Boulogne-sur-Mer, it was hit by 5 bombs from German bombers while providing artillery support to the city. On fire, it was abandonned, and sank in the early hours of May, 24th.

Ouragan : It was captured by the British navy after Operation Dynamo, and given to a Polish crew. It was given back to the FNFL in 1941, and was used as a depot for the crews of Portsmouth. It was decomissioned in 1945 and dismantled in 1947.

Siroco : Fought during the first months of the war as a submarine chaser. It was a used as propaganda, praised for sinking three U-boats, which most likely was a mistake due to the inexperience of the sailors, which mistook the explosion of the depth charges for a submarine shape. While evacuating soldiers during Operation Dynamo, it was hit by a torpedo from German E-boats. Immobilized, it was then hit by two bombs from German Stukas, and sank with 800 of its passengers, leaving only a bit more than 100 survivors.

Simoun, Tempête : They were sent to Algeria after the Armistice. They fought during Operation Torch, and joined the allied side afterwards. Used mostly for convoy escorts, the Tempête participated to the liberation of Corsica. They were dismantled after war.

Tornade, Tramontane, Typhon : All three participated to the Allied invasion of Operation Torch. They fought against British cruisers and corvettes. The Tornade and the Typhon were hit by heavy artillery fire from the Aurora, and sank, while the Tramontane was set on fire and beached.

Trombe : Was scuttled in Toulon in 1942 to prevent capture from the Germans.

 

Caracteristics

 

General characteristics
Type:	Destroyer
Displacement:	1588 t 1,841 t full charge
Length:	105,6 m
Beam:	9, 88 m
Draught:	3,30m (bow) 3,80m (stern)
Propulsion:	3 boilers Geared turbines 31,000 shp (23,117 kW) 2 shafts
Speed:	33 knts (61 km/h; 38 mph)
Range:	2,150 nmi (3,980 km; 2,470 mi) at 14 kn (26 km/h; 16 mph)
Complement:	7 officers, 138 men
Armament:-	ORIGINAL   - 4 × canon de 130mm mle. 1919 - 2 x  37mm mle. 1925 AA canons  OR 1 x 75mm mle. 1924 AA canon - 2 x 2 M1929 13.2mm mgs - 2 × 3 550 mm Torpedo tubes   ALLIED REFIT (SIMOUN, 1943)   - 3 x canon de 130mm mle. 1919 - 8 x 20mm Oerlikon canons - 1 x 25mm Hotchkiss canon - 6 x 13.2mm Hotchkiss M1929 - 20 side grenade launchers - 4 Thornycroft mortars

Photos

 

SCHEMATICS AND OVERVIEW

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

PHOTOS OF THE ARMAMENT :

 

Spoiler

 

130mm mle. 1929

 

More infos : http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_51-40_m1924.php

 

37mm mle. 1925

 

 

13.2mm Hotchkiss M1929 Machineguns

 

 

550mm Triple Torpedo tubes :

 

 

PHOTOS OF THE BOURRASQUE CLASS (ORIGINAL FIT)
 

Spoiler

 

Photo of the Cyclone

Photo of the Mistral in 1938

Photo of the Siroco

Photo of the Tempête

Photo of the Trombe after its repair in 1945 (scuttled in 1942)

 

 

Photo of the Simoun under FNFL service

 

Spoiler

 

 

Photo of the FNFL Bourrasque under Free French service :
 

Spoiler

Camouflages of the Bourrasque class

 

During the first months of WW2, the French navy introduced a new kind of camouflage. It was a false bow wave meant to confuse the enemy ships and submarines as to the real speed of the ship, to make it harder for them to adjust their torpedo trajectory and their artillery shots. It was especially present on the Bourrasque class :

 

Spoiler

 

Here you can see the bow of the Mistral

Bow of the Ouragan

Here's two photos of the Sirocco

This is the Bourrasque during her sinking. You can clearly see the false bow wave in the front

 

 

SOURCES :

 

SABEINE Marc, Les torpilleurs de 1500 tonnes du type Bourrasque, Marine éditions, 2001, 151p.

http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t5300-france-torpilleurs-d-escadre-classe-bourrasque

http://www.anciens-cols-bleus.net/t21930p20-les-vieux-batiments-torpilleur-de-1500-tonnes-forbin

https://www.secondeguerre.net/articles/navires/fr/de/na_classebourrasque.html

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Эскадренные_миноносцы_типа_«Бурраск»

http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t6139-le-camouflage-dans-la-marine

Edited December 4, 2020 by Arghail

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,856]

These are a perfect fit into a future French naval tree and I'll be very disappointed if they aren't present in the tree at launch.  +1.

[Arghail 1,220]

44 minutes ago, leroyonly said:

Open for discussion. 

 

Thank you.

[SpatialX 135]

You should add in the poll "do you whant to see the refit version of the Simoun" with answer: yes, yes as a premium ship, yes as a event ship, no

[Arghail 1,220]

3 hours ago, SpatialX said:

You should add in the poll "do you whant to see the refit version of the Simoun" with answer: yes, yes as a premium ship, yes as a event ship, no

 

I guess so.

[Arghail 1,220]

Added a Photo of Sirocco and its false wave camouflage.

[sam_dom 87]

Bourrasque , this ship ugly ( but who care ? ) for a  french ship

a French book call them " Half- faillure " , slow ( 33 kn max speed )   whith an outdated artilery (using interupted breech )  & a bad hull design .


-The adroit class was the succesor of the Bourrasque class  , it's a updated design , using differant turret .
The Bourasque class turret was found impractical , the loader has to handle  up the shell , a little bit to hight , making the work unconfortable & tiresome .
The result was a better rate of fire but the ship still feel like a early 20's design .


The Bourrasque / Adroit are robust  , crude & relatively reliable design but cleary inferior to any more modern ship ( same for the Dugay-trouin class )

All of that is in that book , about the Le Hardi .
I can say the destroyed ( le hardi  ) suffered some of the problem of all French "torpilleur " , Heavy artilery  & slow rate of fire .
The hull was viewed has a succes despite been sophitiquated

Edited October 24, 2019 by sam_dom

[sam_dom 87]

Your forget the 2 destroyer " captured " by the royal navy in 1940
OF Ouragan ( polish service ) & HMS Mistral
HMS Mistral whive 4X BL 4.7-inch 45 mk I ( 120 mm )  + 1 x QF 3-inch 20 cwt ( 76 mm )   & 3 x 20 mm oerlinkon

OF Ouragant whive 3x4X BL 4.7-inch 45 mk I ( 120 mm )  + 1 x40 mm pom-pom  &  6 x 20 mm oerlinkon
a basic drawing

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by sam_dom

[Arghail 1,220]

 

On 10/06/2020 at 02:21, sam_dom said:

Your forget the 2 destroyer " captured " by the royal navy in 1940
OF Ouragan ( polish service ) & HMS Mistral
HMS Mistral whive 4X BL 4.7-inch 45 mk I ( 120 mm )  + 1 x QF 3-inch 20 cwt ( 76 mm )   & 3 x 20 mm oerlinkon

OF Ouragant whive 3x4X BL 4.7-inch 45 mk I ( 120 mm )  + 1 x40 mm pom-pom  &  6 x 20 mm oerlinkon
a basic drawing

 

 

I did not forget either of them, I mentioned them in the history section of my post, however these ships were captured and modified by the British and used by them (and the Polish). Therefore, they're not relevant in a French suggestion, so I didn't add their loadout.

[sam_dom 87]

On 17/06/2020 at 02:40, Arghail said:

 

 

I did not forget either of them, I mentioned them in the history section of my post, however these ships were captured and modified by the British and used by them (and the Polish). Therefore, they're not relevant in a French suggestion, so I didn't add their loadout.

 

Quote

Finalement les Britanniques le transfèrent au contrôle des Forces navales françaises libres à Hartlepool¹.

Lors du débarquement de Normandie, le Mistral est endommagé par des tirs d'artillerie allemande dans la Manche au large de Quinéville, le 10 juin 1944. Il est déclaré comme perdu⁴.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_destroyer_Mistral

 

 

[Arghail 1,220]

 

Even, so, this is a modification made for the HMS Mistral after it was captured by the British. It was used by the British most of the war and was only given back to the French navy officially on August 24, 1945. This loadout would make a good British premium, but I do not think its inclusion here is relevant.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Arghail

[sam_dom 87]

On 06/07/2020 at 16:14, Arghail said:

 

Even, so, this is a modification made for the HMS Mistral after it was captured by the British. It was used by the British most of the war and was only given back to the French navy officially on August 24, 1945. This loadout would make a good British premium, but I do not think its inclusion here is relevant.

Agree but a  British or a French premium
That could be discussed

[FouManchou 2,463]

Any idea about the Rate of Fire on the main battery?

Now that I have a bit of experience with the Italian Navy, I can say their destroyers suffer a lot from their low, 8 RPM, rate of fire (when there are russian and american destroyers with more than 3 times that)

[Arghail 1,220]

1 hour ago, FouManchou said:

Any idea about the Rate of Fire on the main battery?

Now that I have a bit of experience with the Italian Navy, I can say their destroyers suffer a lot from their low, 8 RPM, rate of fire (when there are russian and american destroyers with more than 3 times that)

 

In theory, 8-9 RPM, however Navy Weaps indicates that a system installed to stabilize the gun during rolling would slow down the fire rate during bad sea, and would sometimes malfunction, limiting the RoF to a more credible 5-6 RPM. Ideally though, it should be 8-9 RPM.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_51-40_m1924.php

Edited August 28, 2020 by Arghail

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

1 hour ago, FouManchou said:

Any idea about the Rate of Fire on the main battery?

Now that I have a bit of experience with the Italian Navy, I can say their destroyers suffer a lot from their low, 8 RPM, rate of fire (when there are russian and american destroyers with more than 3 times that)

 

29 minutes ago, Arghail said:

In theory, 8-9 RPM, however Navy Weaps indicates that a system installed to stabilize the gun during rolling would slow down the fire rate during bad sea, and would sometimes malfunction, limiting the RoF to a more credible 5-6 RPM. Ideally though, it should be 8-9 RPM.

 

Unless somebody finds a French source on better trial measurements, they will all max out at 6 RPM. Because Gaijin never uses "theoretical" rate of fire.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Magiaconatus

[sam_dom 87]

On 28/08/2020 at 14:32, FouManchou said:

Any idea about the Rate of Fire on the main battery?

Now that I have a bit of experience with the Italian Navy, I can say their destroyers suffer a lot from their low, 8 RPM, rate of fire (when there are russian and american destroyers with more than 3 times that)

 

23 hours ago, Arghail said:

 

In theory, 8-9 RPM, however Navy Weaps indicates that a system installed to stabilize the gun during rolling would slow down the fire rate during bad sea, and would sometimes malfunction, limiting the RoF to a more credible 5-6 RPM. Ideally though, it should be 8-9 RPM.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_51-40_m1924.php

Well , most people forgot the 130 / modéle 1919 was designed in 1917-19 .
The gun is crewed by mens
-a Leader
-one man responsable of Elevation & one for Traverse
- one man responsable of the breech , its'  screwed breech , not an automatic breech
-Three loaders , two for the shell & one for the propellant

Sorry for the quality but you can see , it's crowded
The big quality of that type of artilery is the fact , it need mens for work .


American 127 mm was almost automated , radar controlled &  designed for AA / fast firing rate

The Breech is activated by recoil & the shell is ejected automatically  , the crew  had load the shell & proppelant into a loading tray & a piston stuff them in the barrel

Edited August 29, 2020 by sam_dom

[Arghail 1,220]

This is not the same gun. It's an enhanced version, the 130mm mle 1924.

[sam_dom 87]

14 minutes ago, Arghail said:

This is not the same gun. It's an enhanced version, the 130mm mle 1924.

It's say it's on board  Tempete .
It's the early Gunshiel , typical of Bourrasque

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by sam_dom

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

8 minutes ago, Arghail said:

This is not the same gun. It's an enhanced version, the 130mm mle 1924.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make any difference.

Jaguar, Bourrasque, L'Adroit, Guépard, and Mogador-classes will all have an Ace reload of 10 seconds.

[Arghail 1,220]

5 minutes ago, Magiaconatus said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't make any difference.

Jaguar, Bourrasque, L'Adroit, Guépard, and Mogador-classes will all have an Ace reload of 10 seconds.

 

Difficult to say for now. We'll see how Gaijin handles it. I highly doubt they will give the Fantasque class a 6s reload, even though the 138mm mle 1929 was able to achieve 12 RPM. At this point, it's more a matter of balancing. Tier III battles certainly demonstrates that higher RPM has better results than heavier calibers.

[sam_dom 87]

34 minutes ago, Magiaconatus said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't make any difference.

Jaguar, Bourrasque, L'Adroit, Guépard, and Mogador-classes will all have an Ace reload of 10 seconds.

Mogador failled to produce enought electricity for her turret
The french navy wasn't familiar whive the need of eletricty in her new "hight tech " destroyer

I also fear , US navy statistic to be purely
- 1 ) Théorical
- 2 ) Conditional to a good electric power

Let me explain
Bourrasque was designed whive  a  pretty limited electrical need   ! Do you know they had no fridge onboard but a icehoose
The coockery was a coal cookery , she wasn't on board but on the bridge , betwin the fumel .


 

Edited August 29, 2020 by sam_dom

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

49 minutes ago, Arghail said:

 

Difficult to say for now. We'll see how Gaijin handles it. I highly doubt they will give the Fantasque class a 6s reload, even though the 138mm mle 1929 was able to achieve 12 RPM. At this point, it's more a matter of balancing. Tier III battles certainly demonstrates that higher RPM has better results than heavier calibers.

I don't see any problem with giving 12 RPM to the Le Fantasques. Again, we are talking about a fully trained Ace crew. The stock reload is around 6.5-7 seconds. If that is what they have achieved during their trials, then this is what Gaijin should use. This reload is on par with the British/Japanese 120/127 mm guns. The hoist were designed to supply at a rate of 20 RPM, and according to authors of the book on the French destroyers, they were barely able to keep up with the fire rate. They never said it anywhere that even though 12 RPM was the theoretical maximum, they were slower in practice.

47 minutes ago, sam_dom said:

Mogador failled to produce enought electricity for her turret
The french navy wasn't familiar whive the need of eletricty in her new "hight tech " destroyer

It doesn't matter. In WarThunder, all of our vehicles are performing with 100% efficiency, and all these nuances are disregarded.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Magiaconatus

[sam_dom 87]

1 hour ago, Magiaconatus said:

 

It doesn't matter. In WarThunder, all of our vehicles are performing with 100% efficiency, and all these nuances are disregarded.

 

1 hour ago, Magiaconatus said: 

 

It doesn't matter. In WarThunder, all of our vehicles are performing with 100% efficiency, and all these nuances are disregarded.

 

Vidéo game are vidéogame , i agree .
But , let me told you , no systhem work at 100 % , we call that reliability .
Mogador & le Hardi turret suffered reliability problem , mostly poor matérial & electric power

 

1 hour ago, Magiaconatus said: 

 

It doesn't matter. In WarThunder, all of our vehicles are performing with 100% efficiency, and all these nuances are disregarded.

 

Vidéo game are vidéogame , i agree .
But , let me told you , no systhem work at 100 % , we call that reliability .
Mens are not affected by mechanical jaiming , hydrolic pressure or electrical power


For reply to your question
- Could we improve the Bourrasque rate of fire 
No , but the Bourrasque is  contempory of W class & Clemson 


-Could we improve the Mogador & le Hardi rate of fire .
Yes !  That was done , for improve the reliability
 

 

Spoiler

 
 

Quote

Gunnery trials were conducted when Volta was on her sea trials in mid-1939 and were "an unmitigated disaster" for the reasons given above. Some fixes were identified, notably modifications to the breech, installation of split loading trays and reinforcement of the catapult rammers, but they had to wait until the ships' next refit to be implemented. But even these modifications were only stop gaps and an entirely new loading system was deemed necessary, but since this was expected to take 10–12 months to develop the current system would have to be used. Both Volta and Mogador were refitted in January 1940 and had their turrets modified, although loading still could not be done at angles higher than 10°. The surrender of France in June 1940 ended any work on a new loading system.^[5] Five-round ready racks for each gun were added to the sides of the turrets during the refit to compensate for any problems with the loading systems.^[3]

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by sam_dom

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

Then comes the real conundrum. If Mogador is implemented in-game, should it have Volta's achieved 9 RPM reload, while we know that she had an upgraded separate loading trays for the projectiles and cartridges, while Mogador never received those.

Mogador could be implemented in a similar fashion to Chapayev/Sverdlov's ready-racks. After her ready-racks are exhausted, the reloading rate falls back to 6 RPM.