AIM-7 For F-4C Phantom II

[Jamaroo 246]

Introduction: 

 

This will be a relatively quick post regarding the addition of a new missile for the F4 as well as ushering in a new type of missile to the game, being Radar tracking missiles. If you look closely at the belly of the F4C you will see 4 outlines along the ridges where the fuselage meets the wings, these are slots that are reserved for the AIM-7 Sparrow missile (later these slots were revised for the AIM-120 AMRAAM)

 

Suggestion:

 

The AIM-7 Sparrow is added to the game, there are numerous versions of this weapon so it will be up to Gaijin to justify which one to use, the F4C used D and E variations, D had a range of 11km, E had a range of 30km (while this range sounds absurd for the game at current, it is still heavily dependant on radar efficiency and has significant drawbacks against fighters) .

 

This missile is added as a T4 modification for the F4 (coming after the AIM-9E) once unlocked, it can be equipped in the same way that the AH-1Z can equip it's missiles though the first loadout tab. this is due to the fact that these missiles have their own reserved slot (so that other loadouts are unhindered) allowing the player to add another layer to the aircraft's functionality. 

 

These missiles use radar to track as opposed to IF tracking that the rest of the missiles in game currently rely on. this means they require a strong signature to function correctly, making it most effective against bombers and larger craft. For fighters however this missile had much to be desired, historically being pretty terrible overall for this function. none the less it will still give players something extra to use against the enemy and build on aircraft functionality. For players to use this missile they will need to use the F4's radar to lock onto a target and maintain lock until the missile reaches the target. 

 

Pros:

- Long Range (with 11km for the AIM-7C and 30km for the E version) makes target interception a breeze! 

- diversifies the F4's loadout even further! 

-new type of tracking system for players to get exited about! 

-An amazing asset for Air Assault mode where bombers are numerous!

 

Cons:

- Very poor performance against smaller targets.

- Useless for low alt combat (the ground signature will confuse the missile) you will have to ensure target altitude is at or above your own to be most effective.

 

Conclusion:

 

This will be neither and exceptional or wasted asset, and fits the bill for being a balanced and (for the time being) a unique weapon. being that it's purpose is really best for bomber interception, it won't exactly break game balance in regular battles (as even if the missile locks onto a fighter through minimal radar signature, players can 'hide' near terrain to render tracking useless). still none the less additional historical assets are always recommended, especially if it gives players something to experience and work towards!

 

Sources used:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow (for information regarding the missile) 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II (for information regarding the missile and it's use with the F4)

 

War Thunder- ( odd source to mention, however the model in-game has the slots clearly visible. hence me making this suggestion)  

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Jaylem

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

 

However @Jaylem your current suggestion is incomplete. Please add a poll to the suggestion in accordance with our new guidelines which can be found here:

 

If the required poll is not added within 48 hours, the suggestion will be closed and you will need to submit a new one.

Edited September 27, 2019 by SAUBER_KH7

[kamikazi21358 998]

+1, I want to see the full F-4 8 missile loadout, and more missile oriented gameplay for jets that were designed to use missiles like the F-4 and MiG-21 would be nice.

 

 

In fact, in my opinion, I think there should be 2 different stock mods:

1.  20mm gunpods (current)

2.  4 AIM-9Bs, but without gunpods.

As it is kind of ridiculous imo that jets designed to use missiles and were not intended to use their guns as a primary air to air weapon are stuck with only guns stock.

 

 

But considering the current strength of this game, (and I might be wrong, but it can’t do this anyways, right?), I think these should be for a missile only loadout.  I think the F-4C should not right now have 4 IR missiles, 4 radar missiles, AND a Gatling gun.

 

I think it would be nice to have 3 different ‘spaded’ weapon loadouts, allowing players to choose one of three top weapon modifications:

1. Gun oriented — 3 20mm Gatling guns

2. Mixed — 1 Gatling gun, 4 AIM-9s

3. Missile oriented — 4 AIM-7s, 4 AIM-9s,

making the F-4C it’s missile carrier orientation that is historically accurate.

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

you should mention that 11km is in a head-on engagement at high altitude , in the current meta it can drop between 3 to 5km in a tail on engagement at low alt

[Jamaroo 246]

On 24/09/2019 at 02:25, SAUBER_KH7 said:

Open for Discussion.

 

However @Jaylem your current suggestion is incomplete. Please add a poll to the suggestion in accordance with our new guidelines which can be found here:

 

If the required poll is not added within 48 hours, the suggestion will be closed and you will need to submit a new one.

Thanks! funny I should forget the Polls this time, I love polls haha. cheers o7 

On 24/09/2019 at 03:11, kamikazi21358 said:

+1, I want to see the full F-4 8 missile loadout, and more missile oriented gameplay for jets that were designed to use missiles like the F-4 and MiG-21 would be nice.

 

 

In fact, in my opinion, I think there should be 2 different stock mods:

1.  20mm gunpods (current)

2.  4 AIM-9Bs, but without gunpods.

As it is kind of ridiculous imo that jets designed to use missiles and were not intended to use their guns as a primary air to air weapon are stuck with only guns stock.

 

 

But considering the current strength of this game, (and I might be wrong, but it can’t do this anyways, right?), I think these should be for a missile only loadout.  I think the F-4C should not right now have 4 IR missiles, 4 radar missiles, AND a Gatling gun.

 

I think it would be nice to have 3 different ‘spaded’ weapon loadouts, allowing players to choose one of three top weapon modifications:

1. Gun oriented — 3 20mm Gatling guns

2. Mixed — 1 Gatling gun, 4 AIM-9s

3. Missile oriented — 4 AIM-7s, 4 AIM-9s,

making the F-4C it’s missile carrier orientation that is historically accurate.

Interesting suggestion, makes sense from a balance view that's for sure! but I guess it is up to Gaijin. I was merely pointing out the Aircraft has these slots visible in game and are reserved for this missile 8 Missiles would be pretty mint though...provided they work alright hehe.

On 25/09/2019 at 00:14, MonkeyBussiness said:

you should mention that 11km is in a head-on engagement at high altitude , in the current meta it can drop between 3 to 5km in a tail on engagement at low alt

Please expand on this more! I would gladly accept anything to further this suggestion so you are saying these missiles performed worse in rear aspect? 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

20 hours ago, Jaylem said:

so you are saying these missiles performed worse in rear aspect? 

no my point is that a range of a missile is from the launch point , not the launch platform itself to the target ,so if the max range from the launch point to the target is 11km , if you are in a rear aspect engagement and the target is at 5km , by the time you launch the missile , it travel the distance and catch the target , the missile have travel his 11km of max range .

If you are in a head on engagement and the target is at 15km , by the time you launch the missile , it travel the distance and catch the target , the target will be at 11km from your launch point . All of that just to say that the max range of a missile is always in the best conditions : at high alt , thinner air so less drag , so the missile can travel further , in a head on engagement so the target can be engage earlier of your max range and the target itself is not moving or not hard enough.

[RanchSauce39 397]

+1 would very much like to see the F4 get Aim7's.

 

On 21/09/2019 at 11:01, Jaylem said:

 these are slots that are reserved for the AIM-7 Sparrow missile (later these slots were revised for the AIM-120 AMRAAM)

 

 

 

 

 Hmmm ..... do tell me more about those F4C's with Aim120's.

 

Spoiler

yes that was sarcasm

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by RanchSauce39

[kamikazi21358 998]

8 hours ago, RanchSauce39 said:

+1 would very much like to see the F4 get Aim7's.

 

 

 Hmmm ..... do tell me more about those F4C's with Aim120's.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yes that was sarcasm

 

I don’t see why not for the F-4J or something — a very long time from now, with appropriately sized maps.

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

4 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

12 hours ago, RanchSauce39 said:

+1 would very much like to see the F4 get Aim7's.

 

 

 Hmmm ..... do tell me more about those F4C's with Aim120's.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yes that was sarcasm

 

I don’t see why not for the F-4J or something — a very long time from now, with appropriately sized maps.

and countermeasures , a lot of them

[RanchSauce39 397]

11 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

I don’t see why not for the F-4J or something — a very long time from now, with appropriately sized maps.

 

F4J never had Aim120's.

 

Actually the best  medium range radar based missile the F4J ever did get was the Aim7E2.
 

 

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

The thing is. Gaijin can't just add those missiles. Gaijin would need to work on the radar functionality as well. They would need to introduce TDC Wich both mig 21 and f4 had (although I am unsure about the variant).

 

Then the missiles hab various modes they could be fired in. So you would need to represent that including the radar options for those modes. 

 

So it's not that simple. I reckon it would be the focus of another update rather than adding it incomplete. I mean there are no mechanics in WT for radar guided missiles. Those would also need to be implemented. This is an entirely new mechanic... And a more complex one compared to IR missiles. 

 

If they add it in now we will get a mess, radar guided missiles working like in a cartoon or worse like the already implemented IR missiles. 

[kamikazi21358 998]

16 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

The thing is. Gaijin can't just add those missiles. Gaijin would need to work on the radar functionality as well. They would need to introduce TDC Wich both mig 21 and f4 had (although I am unsure about the variant).

 

Then the missiles hab various modes they could be fired in. So you would need to represent that including the radar options for those modes. 

 

So it's not that simple. I reckon it would be the focus of another update rather than adding it incomplete. I mean there are no mechanics in WT for radar guided missiles. Those would also need to be implemented. This is an entirely new mechanic... And a more complex one compared to IR missiles. 

 

If they add it in now we will get a mess, radar guided missiles working like in a cartoon or worse like the already implemented IR missiles. 

Never said don’t add those too.

What is the point of adding modern jets without modern features?  IR missiles, radar missiles, ARMs, full radar features, countermeasures, avionics, etc. — what is more appealing?  A F-14 that just flies like a faster F-80 on a cramped map, or a F-14 with it’s full avionics, missile armaments, on maps that can actually hold them, countermeasures, etc. — making them actually feel unique.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

6 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

Never said don’t add those too.

What is the point of adding modern jets without modern features?  

 

I never did not to add them. 

I said it is stupid to think they add them without a major patch. What I was reacting to was the "gib aim7 nao". 

 

Quote

 

IR missiles, radar missiles, ARMs, full radar features, countermeasures, avionics, etc. — what is more appealing?

 

See as stated above you misread the post. 

 

Quote

 A F-14 that just flies like a faster F-80 on a cramped map, or a F-14 with it’s full avionics, missile armaments, on maps that can actually hold them, countermeasures, etc. — making them actually feel unique.

 

[Milocat 4,857]

We should get these at some point.  Radar-guided missiles would require a lot of work on Gaijin's part though.  And we'd all want them to do it right.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

15 hours ago, Milocat said:

We should get these at some point.  Radar-guided missiles would require a lot of work on Gaijin's part though.  And we'd all want them to do it right.

 

I agree this update will come eventually. I just hope iff systems get implemented before we get BVR missiles. 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

10 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

I agree this update will come eventually. I just hope iff systems get implemented before we get BVR missiles. 

we kind of already got it in SPAAG

[Ska_King_Felix 1,450]

21 minutes ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

we kind of already got it in SPAAG

How so?

[kamikazi21358 998]

On 30/09/2019 at 22:53, DerGrafVonZahl said:

I never did not to add them. 

I said it is stupid to think they add them without a major patch. What I was reacting to was the "gib aim7 nao". 

Yeah, that makes sense.  I am talking about ‘next major patch’ preferably — if I had my way, everything relevant to current level jets would be added, more jets in the current strength would be added (as there are many), and it would be nice if every nation got a top tier jet so top tier is actually balanced for once.

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

On 06/10/2019 at 22:16, Ska_King_Felix said:

How so?

i tested it in my gepard today , basically you have 2 differents sign on your radar , 1 for foe ,1 for friend and when you try to lock on them you can lock the foe if he is in your tack angle (200° in front of you) but if you want to try to lock on a friend even if he is in this zone it doesn't want to , you need to be in the scope to lock a friend. so i imagine the same system can be use for planes in the futur

Edited October 11, 2019 by MonkeyBussiness

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

as you can see on the picture 2 small ligns are friendly , and 1 rectangle between 2 ligns are foe

[RanchSauce39 397]

On 11/10/2019 at 22:22, MonkeyBussiness said:

as you can see on the picture 2 small ligns are friendly , and 1 rectangle between 2 ligns are foe

 

 

its great that this mechanic is in, although i expect this to only be present on such more modern SPAA  in the future  more modern aircraft.

 

 

On 06/10/2019 at 09:06, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

I agree this update will come eventually. I just hope iff systems get implemented before we get BVR missiles. 

 

 

i dont think F4C had any meanigfull IFF systems. The early IFF systems were a avionics panels requiring heads down time to use it. It s based purely on a sort of code like system, You interrogate other aircraft by sending out a bunch of signals, and if a friend decides to respond back to those then you know its a freind, however if the IFF system receives no reply or an invalid reply, that is not enough to proclaim the aircraft as a enemy. ( it could easily be a friendly that has a malfunctioning transponder, or you yourself sent the wrong code)

 

This is not practical to do in the middle of combat anyways.

 

You really don't get reliable IFF with a semi automatic interrogation  until gen 4 aircraft.

Edited May 16, 2020 by RanchSauce39

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

9 hours ago, RanchSauce39 said:

its great that this mechanic is in, although i expect this to only be present on such more modern SPAA  in the future  more modern aircraft.

i just tested out the T-2k , same thing but it was impossible to me to take a screenshot while in a middle of a fight , but i know the T-2k is the more modern jet we have right now (introduced in 1975)

[RanchSauce39 397]

7 hours ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

i just tested out the T-2k , same thing but it was impossible to me to take a screenshot while in a middle of a fight , but i know the T-2k is the more modern jet we have right now (introduced in 1975)

 

I cant say for sure as a dont have a FM for the T2 ( nor am i able to speak the language if i did ) but i would believe rather no.

 

T2 is just a trainer jet, not a combat intended jet, and would not have such advanced systems

 

I seriously doubt US would share thier An/APX 81 IFF system  that they combat tested in 1972, which by 1975 was only found on select few  F4D's ( original test aircraft) , the  F4E in the USAF, and then newly introduced  F14A in the US Navy.

 

APX81 was unique at its time because it did not have to rely on another aircraft needing to respond to  transmitted singals . it could self interrogate enemy aircraft based on their own transponders without them knowing. Russian aircraft started putting transponders where were there just so ground control interceptors could tell freind from foe on thier own radar on the ground  to avoid fratricide from SAM's or not waste fighter time in directing an intercept against a friendly, (Vietnamese used Soviet doctrine).

 

The thing is this type of IFF system only will work against Soviet Fighters. IN War thunder we can still have mixed battles and will still cause complications in determining friend from foe and potential fratricide if you are matched against a nation that is a NATO member.

 

The fully digital and more  advanced system  that can actually interrogate and IFF targets outside of soviet type would be the AN/APX101 which wasn't introduced until 1976 and debuted on the F15A. The AN/APX101 was not permitted for foreign military sales until 1986. https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=400

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by RanchSauce39

[MandolinMagi 603]

Decent idea, but go find an actual source other than Wikipedia.

[DJBscout 61]

http://alternatewars.com/SAC/AAM-N-6_Sparrow_III_SAC_-_30_July_1960.pdf

 

Here's a doc on Sparrow III, which is the AIM-7C pre name-change. The Sparrow I and II were later redesignated the A and B.

 

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/AIM-7F_Sparrow_III_SMC_-_January_1977.pdf

 

There's also docs for the F model Sparrow, but that might be a bit advanced for now