Polish Ground Forces Tech Tree

[PikPikker 445]

Hello, I'm going to suggest adding Poland as a new nation to the game, and here is Polish Ground Forces Tech Tree:

https://pikpikker.neocities.org/pl_wt.html

This is my own site where you can enlarge every picture and click any tank to read about it!

The tree as a picture:

Spoiler

Poland is not known as a major war vehicle developer, but there are many outstanding machines. At first, those are unique pre-war designs. And also there are many interesting modifications of other (mostly Soviet) vehicles of the post-war period. I think they all deserve an independent tech tree!

As you can see, there is enough vehicles to build a classic (with at least 6 tanks per rank) tech tree with less than 10 copy-tanks in total! Even if we change anything, replace or remove any of the vehicles.

Poland was a part of Allies during WW2, but was captured, and it was a Warsaw Pact member. As a result, we can get a mix of Crusader, T-34 and Sherman tanks at the same branch. 

If you are interested in Polish aircraft, you can find it here: 

 

Now I would like to add some words about my tech tree.

At first, I tried avoiding too many copies - and that is why not all tanks of the Polish army are present here. 

All the BRs are approximate (or can be totally wrong), and were set as for arcade mode.

All the shown premium tanks can be implemented as available for purchase for Lions, pack specials or any others.

I expect TKS 20 mm and Vickers Mk. E Type B to be the Reserve tanks.

 

Vehicle count:

Rank 1: 12 (for research) + 5 (premiums)

Rank 2: 5 + 3

Rank 3: 6 + 1

Rank 4: 7 + 3

Rank 5: 8 + 2

Rank 6: 11 + 3

Rank 7: 9

Total: 75 vehicles (58 without premiums)

 

Vehicles

Spoiler

Line 1 - Tank destroyers

Spoiler

TKS 20 mm

Spoiler

 

20-25 TKS tankettes were rearmed with 20 mm Solothurn in September 1939.

TKS-D

Spoiler

 

Light tank destoyer with 37 mm wz.36 Bofors anti-tank gun. 2 prototypes built in 1937.

TKD

Spoiler

 

Light tank destoyer with 47 mm wz.25 "Pocisk" gun. 4 prototypes built in 1932, in use until 1938-1939.

SU-76

Spoiler

 

Polish's People Army (LWP) received 130 SU-76's starting in June 1944. They were used in combat in 1944-1945 in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Germany.

SU-85

Spoiler

ISU-152

Spoiler

 

In 1944, more than 30 ISU-152s were delivered to the People's Army of Poland.

2S1T Gozdzik

Spoiler

 

2S1 Gvozdika was produced in Poland under license. 2S1T received TOPAZ digital fire control system. 324 2S1's are in Poland in total.

AHS Kryl

Spoiler

 

The Kryl is armed with an Israeli Elbit 155 mm L/52 howitzer. AHS Kryl was first unveiled to the public in 2014. Development and trials of this Polish artillery system were planned to be completed in 2018. 

AHS Krab

Spoiler

 

The first prototype of this SPG with 155 mm L/52 howitzer was ready in 2001. 48 units have been built and more will be produced by 2024.

KTO Rosomak WWO Wilk

Spoiler

 

A prototype was built and tested in 2012. It is armed with 105 mm Cockerill gun. The fate of WWO Wilk is stll unknown, it remains as prototype only. 

 SMK 120 Rak

Spoiler

 

First prototypes of RAK 120 mm mortar were presented in 2009. This version is based on KTO Rosomak. They entered service in 2016. At least 80 units built.

KTO Rosomak AMUR

Spoiler

 

KTO Rosomak with AMUR module was shown in 2012. The AMUR module consists of a double missile system: there are 4 Spike anti-tank missiles (left side) and 4 Grom anti-air missle (right side), making it multi-purpose vehicle.

BWP-1 Brimstone

Spoiler

 

12 Brimstone air-to-surface missiles installed on BWP-1 (BMP-1). This tank destroyer was shown in 2019. 

 

Line 2 - SPAAGs

Spoiler

Landsverk L-181

Spoiler

Praga LTL

Spoiler

75 mm Dion Bouton wz.18/24

Spoiler

 

The first prototype was ready in 1910. Several trucks were converted in such SPAAGs with 75 mm anti-aircraft cannons, but they were in use until 1939, also against Germans. 

75 mm PF621L

Spoiler

 

Upgraded version of the previous vehicle - the same 75 mm gun, but new truck as a base - Polski Fiat 621L. 4 units were vreated in 1936.

Robur LO-1800A ZPU-2

Spoiler

 

ZPU-2 anti-air system (2 x 14.5 mm) on DDR Robur LO-1800A truck. At least 3 vehicles were created in 1970's, used by 7th Airborne Division.

Hibneryt

Spoiler

 

In 1972 production of Soviet ZPU-23-2 anti-air system started in Poland. Around at the same time it was installed on Star 266 truck. This SPAAG was named Hibneryt, existing later in different versions.

Hibneryt-P

Spoiler

 

Hibneryt-P is the improved Hibneryt protected with armor shields.

Hibneryt-KG

Spoiler

 

Hibneryt-KG (also known as Hibneryt-3) is the latest version of Hibneryt shown in 2007. The main change is receiving Grom anti-air missiles as an addition to installed ZPU-23-2.

LSPZRA Sopel

Spoiler

 

Air defence variant of Opal APC (licensed MT-LB) armed with twin 23 mm cannon and two 9M32M "Strela-2M" surface-to-air missiles. Only prototype.

PZA Loara

Spoiler

 

SPAAG with two 35 mm guns based on PT-91 chassis, developed in 1990s. 2-4 units were in use until 2013.

LSPZRA Stalagmit

Spoiler

 

Further development of Sopel SPAAG. It got a new ELOP turret with two 23 mm Model-4216 guns and 4 Grom surface to air missiles. This variant was equipped with more advanced guiding systems. Only prototype.

ZSU-23-4MP Biala

Spoiler

 

Developed as a cheaper analogue of PZA Loara, around 70 units produced. Modernization of ZSU-23-4 includes a new digital optical targeting system and 4 Grom surface-to-air missile launcher. The AZP-23 autocannons are equipped with modern ammunition.

AMZ Zubr P Poprad

Spoiler

 

Modern light SPAAG armed with 4 Grom surface-to-air missiles. Polish military operates 2 of these missile systems, plus another 77 were planned to be delivered.

Zbik-P/R

Spoiler

 

The anti-aircraft system prototype that was not implemented in 2001. Zbik-P/R includes both 4 Grom surface-to-air missiles and radar station.

 

Line 3 - Medium tanks

Spoiler

Vickers Mk. E Type B

Spoiler

7TP

Spoiler

7TP wz.39

Spoiler

 

Also may be known as 9TP. Improved version of 7TP from 1939, which gained 40 mm frontal sloped armor and better engine. Only 2 prototypes built

Crusader Mk.II

Spoiler

 

1st Armoured Division of Poland used some Crusader tanks.

Sherman IB

Spoiler

 

Some Sherman IBs (Sherman I (M4) with 105mm howitzer) were used by 1st Krecgwolecki Ulans, 2nd Warswaka Armoured Division.

Sherman III

Spoiler

 

The Polish II Corps, fighting in Italy, primarily used M4A2s (Sherman III) that had been used by the British Army in Africa.

Cromwell Mk.I

Spoiler

 

Cromwell tanks were used by Polish 1st Armoured Division (Polish 1 Dywizja Pancerna).

T-34-76 (1943)

Spoiler

 

Poland had 71 T-34-76 Model 1942 and T-34-76 Model 1943 medium tanks.

T-34-85M1

Spoiler

 

T-34-85 was produced in Poland in 1951-1956 under license. 1380 vehicles were produced in total. These tanks, T-34-85M1 had a list of differences from the Soviet version:

- another ammunition arrangement, 55 shots

- 4 crew members (because of new aim system and better loading of the front machine gun)

- better tank control mechanisms

- turret shape slightly changed

- faster turret rotation, up to 25-30 deg/sec

- new radiostation 10RT-26E, another speech device and observation devices

- night vision facility for driver

- volume of fuel tanks increased

- engine was possible to drive on different types of fuel and received a heater

T-34-85M2

Spoiler

 

T-34-85 was produced in Poland in 1951-1956 under license. 1380 vehicles were produced in total. These tanks, T-34-85M1 had a list of differences from the Soviet version:

- another ammunition arrangement, 55 shots

- 4 crew members (because of new aim system and better loading of the front machine gun)

- better tank control mechanisms

- turret shape slightly changed

- faster turret rotation, up to 25-30 deg/sec

- new radiostation 10RT-26E, another speech device and observation devices

- night vision facility for driver

- volume of fuel tanks increased

- engine was possible to drive on different types of fuel and received a heater

 

T-34-85M2 also got systems for better underwater driving.

T-44

Spoiler

T-54A ZET-1

Spoiler

 

The ZET-1 (zashchita ekrannaya tankovaya) was a Polish project to make T-54s more ATGM resistant in 1964. A single prototype was built, but there was no interest, and the program was closed.

T-55U

Spoiler

 

T-55U is the designation for T-54A, which were under licensed production in Poland, that were upgraded to T-55 standard.

T-55AM Merida

Spoiler

 

T-55's upgraded to T-55AM standard using Merida upgrading package. The modernization devices, in addition to licensing solutions, included national studies. Around 630 tanks were upgraded in 1986-1989 and kept in service until 2002.

PT-91 Twardy

Spoiler

PT-91M2

Spoiler

Leopard 2PL

Spoiler

PT-16

Spoiler

 

PT-16 is a deep modernization of PT-91. It was revealed in 2016. 

PT-17

Spoiler

 

Line 4 - Light tanks

Spoiler

 Vickers M1937

Spoiler

Wz.34-II

Spoiler

 

90 armored cars converted in 1934.

10TP

Spoiler

T-70

Spoiler

 

In period between July 1943 to January 1945, Polish units in the east (Ludowe Wojsko Polskie) used 53 T-70s. 

MT-LB-23M Krak

Spoiler

 

A prototype of installing 23 mm gun on MT-LB Soviet carrier from 1992. "Krak" SPAAG/IFV was very outdated for its time and was declined. 

MT-LB Promet

Spoiler

 

SPAAG based on MT-LB with twin 23 mm autocannon, from 1979. 4 prototypes built.

OT-64 SKOT 2AM

Spoiler

 

A small number of Polish SKOT-2A APCs was fitted with 9M14 Malyutka (AT-3 Sagger) ATGM launchers on the turret sides. 

BWP-1M Puma

Spoiler

 

BWP-1 (BMP-1) modernization. Last iteration of upgrade is known to be kept in 2011.

BWP-2000

Spoiler

 

BWP-2000 prototype, shown in early 1990s, were meant to replace BWP-1. It was armed with 60 mm OTO HVMS gun and 2 TOW launchers. 2 prototypes built.

KTO Rosomak-2

Spoiler

 

Rosomak IFV with 30 mm Bushmaster autocannon and Spike ATGM shown in 2011.

WPB Anders

Spoiler

 

WPB Anders is a family of tracked combat vehicles designed in 2008-2011. Fire support configuration (as on the photo) is armed with 120 mm Ruag CTG cannon. Still in development.

PL-01

Spoiler

 

The concept vehicle was first unveiled at the International Defence Industry Exhibition in Kielce on 2 September 2013. The primary weapon of the PL-01 is a 105mm or 120mm cannon fitted within the unmanned turret, in accordance with NATO standards. Still remains in prototype stage and not entered service.

 

Line 5, 6 - Premiums

Spoiler

4TP

Spoiler

 

This light tank was constructed in 1936 and was being tested until 1939 (in 1938 it was tested with 20 mm wz.38 FK-A gun), but declined because such type of tanks became useless. 1 prototype built in total.

WB-10

Spoiler

 

Polish amphibious tank designed in 1926. The WB-10 was also a wheel-XXX-track tank. It was armed with 47 mm gun. A single prototype was built in 1926, but it was not continued because has many technical problems.

AB-41

Spoiler

 

AB-41 armored car was captured and used for training by the Carpathian Lancers in Egypt from June 1942.

Renault R35

Spoiler

Hotchkiss H39

Spoiler

PZInz. 160

Spoiler

 

A 1937 project of light SPG based on 4TP tank chassis with 37 mm wz.37 Bofors gun. 

Somua S35

Spoiler

14TP

Spoiler

 

14TP was desingned in the late 1930s as 10TP successor, but its incomplete prototype was destroyed because of the German invasion.

Jagdpanzer 38(t) Chwat

Spoiler

 

Captured Jagdpanzer 38(t) in 1944 which was nicknamed "Chwat" (Daredevil).

Panther G

Spoiler

 

In 1944 two Panthers were captured and was named Pudel and Felek.

T-34-100

Spoiler

 

A single prototype of T-34-85 with 100 mm gun was made in 1955, but due to some problems it was declined.

M4A2 (76) Sherman

Spoiler

 

Parts of the Polish First Army also briefly used M4A2 (76 mm) borrowed from the Soviet armies after heavy losses in the conquest of Danzig.

AHS Krab Prototyp

Spoiler

 

The first version of AHS Krab - AS-90 British turret on Polish T-72 chassis. Such conversion was unsuccessful, and production AHS Krab was made on a specially designed chassis.

WR-40 Langusta

Spoiler

 

Polish version of BM-21 Grad which entered service in 2007. Polish army has about 100 such vehicles.

 SMG 120 Rak

Spoiler

 

First prototypes of RAK 120 mm mortar were presented in 2009. This version is based on HSW APC, but it didn't enter the production.

PT-72U

Spoiler

 

PT-72U is a modernization package developed to increase the tank’s survivability during operations in urban areas and in other asymmetric operation situations. 

PT-94 Goryl

Spoiler

 

 

 

Some other military vehicles which Poland used and which might be added to the tree (I'm not adding them because I avoid unnecessary clone tanks):

Spoiler

Sexton II

M5 Stuart

Centaur

Churchill I

SU-100

Archer

Achilles II

A30 Challenger

IS-2M

SU-152

IS-3

T-72M

T-72M1

T-72M1D

T-72M1Z

 

 

Sources

The full list of sources is pretty large, and you can access it here: https://pikpikker.neocities.org/about.html

Edited January 13, 2020 by PikPikker
Adding Leopard 2PL

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Solarmod 1,204]

I am in full, unadulterated support for this. I want to see a full fledged polska tree, especially with the Panther.

 

+10,001 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Solarmod

[eleks12 1,079]

I would love to see Poland ingame in some form... However i still would prefer a Eastern European International tree.

 

Also do you have any info on the T-34/88? since im certain that it is a fake World of Tanks tank.

[PikPikker 445]

38 minutes ago, eleks12 said:

I would love to see Poland ingame in some form... However i still would prefer a Eastern European International tree.

 

Also do you have any info on the T-34/88? since im certain that it is a fake World of Tanks tank.

 

The only thing I can say for sure - T-34/88 existed in the real and was built. But in USSR, where the gun was installed on 15.05.1946 as a part of repairing the tank. 

What about the Polish T-34/88 - yes, we can't be absolutely sure. But that topic does not seem to show us any fakes, those people are not interested in that.

The only fake I found on that forum is IS-2/88, but it was posted in 2014 when it was not known it was not real.

The author gives this source (which I do not think looks like fake) for T-34/88:

Spoiler

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A005900120005-2.pdf

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by PikPikker

[PrussianOwl 442]

A small but solid tree. +1

[DarthGergely 464]

Yesterday (08.11) in the official QandA stream the Kirill guy denied the : " Hungarian , Polish, Ukrainian " techs . For me its not such a big thing because I can't believe it when they say hello , so the hope is not lost , not would be the first time when they  contradict themselves. 

Here is my +1 for the Polish brothers !

[PikPikker 445]

Thanks everyone for the support!

 

2 hours ago, DarthGergely said:

Yesterday (08.11) in the official QandA stream the Kirill guy denied the : " Hungarian , Polish, Ukrainian " techs . For me its not such a big thing because I can't believe it when they say hello , so the hope is not lost , not would be the first time when they  contradict themselves. 

 

Yes, for now we have many different vehicles and tech trees overally, but this can't be forever - the game needs extension, which is clearly impossible without new planes, tanks, ships, maps etc. And of course it is hard to imagine the game without adding new nations. Once there will be a day for these "Hungarian, Polish" tech trees which seems way more interesting than the Chinese one. 

 

With such a powerful and friendly community we can show our interest in new nations and tech trees and make them into the game! 

[Sp15 266]

sure they could change their mind about poland but only if there was a substantial ammount of original vhehicles on each rank and they had the infomation to impliment those vehicles properly (ie first hand archive information, sales brochures etc). As things stand though poland has original vehicles for rank 1 and a few like ANDERS at the higher ranks, with most of the tree being either clones, lisence produced, or lightly modified vehicles from USSR, Germans or Finland. there is also a CV90 with a plastic bodykit as your top tier light tank because as far as i know the PL-01 is just a publicity stunt and was never a functional vehicle. 

[PikPikker 445]

4 hours ago, Sp15 said:

sure they could change their mind about poland but only if there was a substantial ammount of original vhehicles on each rank and they had the infomation to impliment those vehicles properly (ie first hand archive information, sales brochures etc). As things stand though poland has original vehicles for rank 1 and a few like ANDERS at the higher ranks, with most of the tree being either clones, lisence produced, or lightly modified vehicles from USSR, Germans or Finland. there is also a CV90 with a plastic bodykit as your top tier light tank because as far as i know the PL-01 is just a publicity stunt and was never a functional vehicle. 

 

I managed to make at least 2 unique vehicles per rank (for ranks 2 and 3) which is not that bad for captured country with weak military industry. By the way, there is still no Sherman IB ingame.

I suppose it will not be a problem to find all the first hand information about all the represented Polish tanks, at least because they were built.

Yes, PL-01 is not functional for now, but it still in development. And may be it will be into service when Poland will enter the game. If no - WPB Anders can easily take the role of the top tier light tank. 

 

In summary, I just want to say there is a clear chance to see Poland in the game and that it has some interesting and unique tanks to drive.

 

Of course I was inspired by the Chinese tree which is not only full of copies, but also has Soviet and USA modified vehicles. It makes a hope for all those tiny tech trees as Hungary, Romania, Poland and many others. My opinion is - why not? I personally would be happy to see them all in the game. And that is why I build my own proposals to inspire our community and to know what other people think. If most of us would agree, there should not be many obstacles to implement these countries ingame. 

[Grimbergen95 362]

AB 41 armored car captured by polish soldier

[Soldier_676_@psn 95]

I completely agree that smaller countries can still work perfectly fine. Sure they would have more foreign influence, ex 'copy pastes' and (slightly) modified vehicles but it won't ruin the fun, atleast for me.Why would we exclude them if it provides a few solid years of new and interesting content in the form of different design philosophies. 

[tricakill 38]

Seems interesting

[PikPikker 445]

8 hours ago, Grimbergen95 said:

AB 41 armored car captured by polish soldier

 

Thank you for the vehicle! I already added it as a premium. 

[N-Glycerin@psn 89]

Is the premium PT-72U supposed to be a jab at how gaijin started selling top tier premiums? I can't help but feel like it'd fit in the normal tech tree. But I know little about polish vehicles. 

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

I feel as if you could merge the most of the Eastern European nations into one tree for efficiency. They are definitely well researched and planned but I don't believe there is enough indigenous material for multiple separate trees. 

[PikPikker 445]

3 hours ago, *N-Glycerin said:

Is the premium PT-72U supposed to be a jab at how gaijin started selling top tier premiums? I can't help but feel like it'd fit in the normal tech tree. But I know little about polish vehicles. 

 

PT-72U is a part of another program unlike PT-91 Twardy. But it is a good idea to add some more its modifications, so tanks like PT-91M2 would fit here a way better.

 

2 hours ago, Private_Wolk said:

I feel as if you could merge the most of the Eastern European nations into one tree for efficiency. They are definitely well researched and planned but I don't believe there is enough indigenous material for multiple separate trees. 

 

Or course merging nations could work, and it would save us from all those copies... But I personally don't like combined trees. When you build an independent tree of a nation, such tree fills with a special spirit of this country, there is much more space for more vehicles. I have already proposed 6 new nations, and all of them are European, so in theory they could be joined. But there is about 40 exclusive tanks in each one, approximately. 40*6 = 240 tanks. I feel like there would be quite a mess... But of course this is my own vision.

 

There are already Minor Axis, Eastern Europe, Commonwealth tech trees. I'm not going against them, but making an alternative. Now everyone has a choice to support them or independent tech trees like mine. 

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

[RazNaRok 616]

 

  

7TP wz.39

  Hide contents

 

Also may be known as 9TP. Improved version of 7TP from 1939, which gained 40 mm frontal sloped armor and better engine. About 13 tanks were produced (2 prototypes + 11 production).

 

Nope...

Just two prototypes and one comparison vehicle build upon the non-finished C7P artilerry tractor.

On Your photo is regular 7TP from late production...

 

  

On 28/11/2019 at 10:31, *NeXeS-PL said:

....

 

PWS-10, PWS-A, RWD-14, Lublin R-XVIII, LWS-3 - are just trainers or recognition planes... as playable as the USSR PO-2...

 

Step on the ground...

Aviation...

The P.7a in best case is a poor reserve plane, even a P.11c variant with 4xMG will be a reserve with BR around 1.0~1.3

However we can count in the UK planes bought by Polish goverment at the spring of 1939:

Hawker Hurricane mk.I

Supermarine Spitfire mk.I

Fairey Battle mk.I

 

Also for the bomber line we could ad the Fokker F-VIIB/3m as reserve.

 

Army...

TK-S and all it's derivatives, in the game exist Italian tankette L3 with a 20mm cannon but it only came here to fill the gap

off the tank destroyers line because nothing better was found in its place

7TP an it's reinforced variants... still just a reserve tanks.

PZInż130 (4TP amphibious), PZInż140 (4TP) - never were finished polish government canceled project as to be to much expensive...

PZInż160 (tank destroyer on 4TP chassis with 37mm Bofors) - never were finished polish government canceled project as to be to much expensive...

10TP - never finished or armed, just like others Polish government did recognized wheel-c.um-tracked tank as having no future on the modern battlefield...

14TP - probably never build prototype or just a wooden mock-up

So called by polish historian 22-25TP tanks (similar to the T-28) - just a paper project study...

So called 25t "Habich" tank - just a wooden mock-up and paper project study for today exist only in form of chassis fragment on paper and memories of E. Habich...

 

 

By all respect...

The best way to introduce independent polish line obviously is the fleet.

Where poles have more own constructions and also did own ships whose are up to today not introduced to game.

 

Icons of polish Aviation the P.11c, PZL.23, PZL.37, PZL.38, as well army icons the TK-S and 7TP should be introduced to game

as the captured vehicles in foreign forces tree in form of a premium vehicles with possibility to unlock historic polish camouflage.

Maybe also as a gift's or packs "lol's" being the trailers or ovule of independent polish nation fleet tree with a vestigial trees of aviation and army forces.

Otherwise, we will get a tree that in 90% will be a copy paste of the contents already being in the game...

 

Creating a independent nation tree is not only listing potential candidates or pious wishes of Polish youngsters who just read something on the internet.

Honestly everything or mostly everything that has been published so far in the subject of the Polish nation (like the quoted above Mr. Luki1223)

is just such as above ... nothing more than internet gossip and childlike wishes.

 

It is hard work and gathering information supported by historical documentation ... if we going to create one.

 

But I'm open for discussion...

 

P.S.

Anticipating hate and questions ... yes I'm Pole.
But I can put national pride aside and I have no resistance of playing Polish premium vehicles in the form of vehicles captured by our enemies.

Including also the Pzkpfw 731(p), Pzkpfw TKS(p)... or a polish planes captured by Germans from private collection of Hermann Wilhelm Göring.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by RazNaRok

[PikPikker 445]

12 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

 

  

7TP wz.39

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Also may be known as 9TP. Improved version of 7TP from 1939, which gained 40 mm frontal sloped armor and better engine. About 13 tanks were produced (2 prototypes + 11 production).

 

Nope...

Just two prototypes and one comparison vehicle build upon the non-finished C7P artilerry tractor.

On Your photo is regular 7TP from late production...

 

  

 

PWS-10, PWS-A, RWD-14, Lublin R-XVIII, LWS-3 - are just trainers or recognition planes... as playable as the USSR PO-2...

 

Step on the ground...

Aviation...

The P.7a in best case is a poor reserve plane, even a P.11c variant with 4xMG will be a reserve with BR around 1.0~1.3

However we can count in the UK planes bought by Polish goverment at the spring of 1939:

Hawker Hurricane mk.I

Supermarine Spitfire mk.I

Fairey Battle mk.I

 

Also for the bomber line we could ad the Fokker F-VIIB/3m as reserve.

 

Army...

TK-S and all it's derivatives, in the game exist Italian tankette L3 with a 20mm cannon but it only came here to fill the gap

off the tank destroyers line because nothing better was found in its place

7TP an it's reinforced variants... still just a reserve tanks.

PZInż130 (4TP amphibious), PZInż140 (4TP) - never were finished polish government canceled project as to be to much expensive...

PZInż160 (tank destroyer on 4TP chassis with 37mm Bofors) - never were finished polish government canceled project as to be to much expensive...

10TP - never finished or armed, just like others Polish government did recognized wheel-c.um-tracked tank as having no future on the modern battlefield...

14TP - probably never build prototype or just a wooden mock-up

So called by polish historian 22-25TP tanks (similar to the T-28) - just a paper project study...

So called 25t "Habich" tank - just a wooden mock-up and paper project study for today exist only in form of chassis fragment on paper and memories of E. Habich...

 

 

By all respect...

The best way to introduce independent polish line obviously is the fleet.

Where poles have more own constructions and also did own ships whose are up to today not introduced to game.

 

Icons of polish Aviation the P.11c, PZL.23, PZL.37, PZL.38, as well army icons the TK-S and 7TP should be introduced to game

as the captured vehicles in foreign forces tree in form of a premium vehicles with possibility to unlock historic polish camouflage.

Maybe also as a gift's or packs "lol's" being the trailers or ovule of independent polish nation fleet tree with a vestigial trees of aviation and army forces.

Otherwise, we will get a tree that in 90% will be a copy paste of the contents already being in the game...

 

Creating a independent nation tree is not only listing potential candidates or pious wishes of Polish youngsters who just read something on the internet.

Honestly everything or mostly everything that has been published so far in the subject of the Polish nation (like the quoted above Mr. Luki1223)

is just such as above ... nothing more than internet gossip and childlike wishes.

 

It is hard work and gathering information supported by historical documentation ... if we going to create one.

 

But I'm open for discussion...

 

P.S.

Anticipating hate and questions ... yes I'm Pole.
But I can put national pride aside and I have no resistance of playing Polish premium vehicles in the form of vehicles captured by our enemies.

Including also the Pzkpfw 731(p), Pzkpfw TKS(p)... or a polish planes captured by Germans from private collection of Hermann Wilhelm Göring.

 

 

Thank you for your participation in discussion and helping with 7TP wz.39! 

I'm researcher of only ground forces, unfortunately, but if someone makes a decent topic about Polish aviation and naval forces, I will gladly include it into my post to make the project stronger!

 

I'm saying it again and again, but newly come China shows us there can be nations literally full of clones. But if we have a close look, we will see Poland has some interesting things and has unique vehicles on every rank! Yes, ranks 2 and 3 look problematic, but this can be understadable because of situation in Poland in WW2. But after them there is a lot of great tanks - such as Polish MBTs, special SPAAGs, light tanks... It would be hard to introduce them all if we do not make an independent tree. 

 

I was thinking about making the Polish tree unlockable - the same way I did with Portugal - but Poland goes well as a full tree, and 8 clones on rank 2 and 3 in total is an acceptable victim, in my opinion, and it does not make the tree worse.

 

More than that, having a Polish tree does not mean we cannot get Polish vehicles as German captured premiums, in theory!

 

Also, I gather my information from many sources, mostly from historic blogs so these people do their best to collect the most truthful information about each vehicle. But coming back to my tree, the main idea of my proposal is mainly that the Polish tech tree is possible - fairly more possible than the Chinese one. I cannot get more information about vehicles than developers can, but I hope someday they will find an idea of implementing such tiny nations interesting enough. 

[RazNaRok 616]

Honestly most trees by Polish players are full of wishful thinking rather than full of real knowledge.

Main task of creators of the Polish trees is to prove that Poland have enough tanks to fill all branches.

Well... This is not true.

 

Yes, I know, most Polish players will be surprised and even upset right now but they have to understand there is no way to build complete independent polish line with polish technology only...

This could be impossible even with use of Soviet vehicles modified during license production in Poland.

 

Below I'm presenting a list of tanks which could be used in Polish line. Without sci-fi proposals, fakes, undocumented “maybe” variants, wishfully “thinking” tanks.

I could forgot about one or two vehicles but more or less this is the most complete list from 39's up to 70's.:

Poland had Renault FT, like many other countries after WWI. At beginning it may look senseless in terms of WT gameplay

however there are two interesting options for a reserve tank:
• LT — Renault Type “M” — Renault FT modified in Poland, vehicle had nickname “Hanuś”
• LT — Renault wz.32  — Renault M26/27 modified in Poland, vehicle had suspension of Vickers mk.E tank

 

• LT — TK-S tankette with 37mm Puteaux SA 18 gun

• LT — TK-S tankette with 20 mm Solothurn S-18 anti tank gun
• LT — TK-S tankette with 20 mm FK-A wz.38 anti tank gun
• MT — Vickers Type E mk.B

• MT — 7TP single turret early production

• MT — 7TP single turret late production

• MT — 7TP wz.39 PZInż prototype

• MT — 7TP reinforced BBTBrPanc prototype, had a new hull shape
• TD — TK-SD
• SPG — TK-D

• LT — 4TP amphibious (PZInż.130)
• LT — 4TP (PZInż.140)
• MT — 10TP

• MT — 14TP, it is unknown if it actually was build, polish sources claim either it was a: 60% complete prototype build from 10TP, a contract for production of 60% parts, a wooden mockup
• TD — PZInż.160
• SPG — Sexton II (PFUK)
• LT — M5 Stuart (PFUK), Covenanter (PFUK)
• LT — Crusader (PFUK)

• MT — 25t BS PZInż, polish sources claim there was a woden mockup and maybe a early stage production of prototype probably was destroyed by factory workers
• MT — M4 Sherman (PFUK), T-34/76 (PFSU)

• MT — Centaur (PFUK)

• MT — Cromwell (PFUK)
• HT — Churchill I (PFUK)
• TD — SU-85 (PFSU), Archer (PFUK)
• MT — T-34/85 license production with minor Polish modifications two variants were in production a M1 and M2, also was planed a M3. All in Poland were designated just as "M",

also those were know as product S1 of Bumar Łabędy.
• HT — KV-1s (PFSU) — TBH Poland received five KV-8 with flamethrowers for training heavy tank crew but to fill this gap we can say there were KV-1s ones
• TD — SU-100 (PFSU), Achilles II (PFUK)
• MT — A30 Challenger (PFUK)
• HT — IS-2m (PFSU)
• TD — SU-152 (PFSU)
• HT — IS-3, USSR delivered two vehicles after WWII to Poland for training purposes
• TD — ISU-152 (PFSU)
• MT — T-54 license production with minor Polish modifications, best example is so called product S2 of Bumar Łabędy a T-54 with anti ATGM armour

• MT — T-55 license production with minor Polish modifications, best example is so called product S3 of Bumar Łabędy a T-55 with anti ATGM armour)

• MT — T-55AM2 "Merida"

• MT — T-72M T-72 license production with minor Polish modifications

• MT — T-72M1 T-72 license production with minor Polish modifications

• MT — T-72M1D T-72 license production with minor Polish modifications

• MT — T-72M1Z T-72 license production with minor Polish modifications

 

I’ve added vehicles used by Polish forces in the UK (PFUK) and in Soviet Union (PFSU), even with them will be hard to build independent nation ground forces tree.

Polish line could be interesting part of minor nation tree with several vehicles used as reward / premium tanks. Well, Polish premium tanks proposals could be really interesting article.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by RazNaRok

[PikPikker 445]

44 minutes ago, RazNaRok said:

Honestly most trees by Polish players are full of wishful thinking rather than full of real knowledge.

Main task of creators of the Polish trees is to prove that Poland have enough tanks to fill all branches.

Well... This is not true.

 

Yes, I know, most Polish players will be surprised and even upset right now but they have to understand there is no way to build complete independent polish line with polish technology only...

This could be impossible even with use of Soviet vehicles modified during license production in Poland.

 

Below I'm presenting a list of vehicles which could be used in Polish line. Without sci-fi proposals, fakes, undocumented “maybe” variants, wishfully “thinking” tanks.

I could forgot about one or two vehicles but more or less this is the most complete list from 39's up to 70's.

 

I’ve added vehicles used by Polish forces in the UK (PFUK) and in Soviet Union (PFSU), even with them will be hard to build independent nation ground forces tree.

Polish line could be interesting part of minor nation tree with several vehicles used as reward / premium tanks. Well, Polish premium tanks proposals could be really interesting article.

 

 

I agree that Polish tree is totally impossible with only Polish vehicles (even if we take paper projects). Poland cannot be built without Soviet, American and English tanks. But with them - pretty possible. And my opinion is - why not? 

 

There already were multination tree proposals with Poland inside, but I prefer my own alternative. Of course it is up to developers which version to implement, and will be glad to see Polish (and tanks of other nations I proposed) in any way.

 

Also thank you for your full list of tanks Poland used, I added them as a separate list! 

 

 

 

[GrumpyStranger 723]

The first couple tanks from that list basically ignore the BR framework of the game- anything above 7tp is useless within the scope of the game. Additionally, both 14tp AND pzinż 160 are in itself wishful thinking, as neither reached prototype stage...

Edited December 15, 2019 by GrumpyStranger

[RazNaRok 616]

16 hours ago, GrumpyStranger said:

anything above 7tp is useless within the scope of the game.

 

Yes it is but proposal is done from the perspective of upcoming Chinese tree, with did open door for trees with licensed and loaned vehicles...

 

16 hours ago, GrumpyStranger said:

Additionally, both 14tp AND pzinż 160 are in itself wishful thinking, as neither reached prototype stage...

 

as the eye of the seasoned mushroom hunter says, he will see everything...

 

I know... well we both probably know, this is an old list from time when we were struggling for polish tree in WoT

Both the 14TP and the PZInż160 are slightly exaggerated, still plausible in comparison to the KSUST and BBTBrPanc cerbers  and a few wishfull

inventions that usually appear when talking about the Polish line.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by RazNaRok

[RazNaRok 616]

On 05/11/2019 at 11:46, PikPikker said:

Vehicles

  Hide contents

 

  Hide contents

 

T-34-100

 

 

T-34-88

 

T-34-88 is fake of WG, for consoles.

A KwK 88 wont fit the T-34-85 Zis53 turret without breaking the rear wall after firing...

Also the story behind is indeed connected to the IS-2m.

On one of polish historic blogs, and later on history researchers forum someone who presented himself as a former employee of the HSW (Huta Stalowa Wola) Steelworks presented the story according to which, after the war, the steelworks in his warehouses had large volumes of 88mm gun barrels produced there during the German occupation. According to that person, a project was to be developed to use these guns for repair of damaged IS-2m drawn from half-fights to help rebuild polish armored forces in post-war era. 

This is highly suspicious, because apart from the supply of non-standard ammunition, there were huge differences in the construction of the gun breach and gun mantle.

 

Also the qutoed CIA reports should not be treated as an unquestionably reliable source, note the footnote of the person preparing the report - (SIC!)
Indicates or suggests that the "spy" may have made a mistake and the reporter kept the original spelling ...

 

T-34-100 polish prototype was scraped in trials, recoil and weight of the gun creates technical problems

proving mounting 100mm (questionable as the type of gun wasn't specified) in standard T-34-85 to be not possible or too expensive to solve.

 

Same as with T-34-88 the quoted CIA reports should not be treated as an unquestionably reliable source, note the footnote of the person preparing the report - (SIC!)
Indicates or suggests that the "spy" may have made a mistake and the reporter kept the original spelling ...

 

Further analysis of those reports show something is strange in those... from one point of view, the author of the report was able to accurately describe such gadgets

as the personal weapon of tank crew or an oil pump with a higher efficiency than the standard one ... on the other hand, the description of exterior look of those vehicles

are so rudimentary and so generic as if the our "spy" never had access to them. Which in turn indicates that he may have been the victim of deliberate counterintelligence activities.

 

 

When we speaking of CIA reports there is another interesting one, and much more plausible in comparison to the one reporting T-34-88 and T-34-100...

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00457R014500130001-0.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A060100210001-0.pdf

 

According to those Polish Armored Units Training Center placed in the zone between the Warsaw and Dęblin in year 1952 had T-44 tanks in stock.

Another one was the 15th Tank Training Regiment in Gliwice witch in year 1961 had also the T-44 tanks in stock.

In the case of report about the 15TH TTR the Spy accurately writes the allocation of tank crews up to smallest platoon, with makes the whole story more plausible.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by RazNaRok