Polish Ground Forces Tech Tree

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

SKOT-2AP

Wheeled, floating armored personnel carrier SKOT-2AP.

 A Polish developmental variant of the OT-64 (SKOT) transporter developed jointly by the CSRS and the Polish People's Republic.  The presented version of the AP differed from the classic SKOT 2 using the so-called  "anti-aircraft tower".  The turret was armed with a 14.5 mm KWPT machine gun and a 7.62 mm PKT machine gun, both with an elevation angle of + 89.5 °.

 The introduction of a new turret increased the total weight of the transporter to 14.5 tons.  The crew and the purpose of the vehicle did not change and were the same as in the SKOT-2A version.  The conversion of the SKOT transporter to the SKOT-2AP version was carried out at FSC Lublin in the first half of the seventies.  Most of the cars received new towers after the end of serial production of the vehicle.  In total, 1,185 vehicles were rebuilt, which made the SKOT-2AP the most frequently used combat version of the SKOT carrier in the Polish armored and mechanized troops.  These transporters were to provide infantry subunits with additional ability to fight air targets and were in service simultaneously with the SKOT-2A vehicles.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by NeXeS-PL@psn

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

SKOT-2AM

 In 1977, on the basis of the SKOT-2A transporter, the first batch of the SKOT-2AM version was built, additionally armed with a set of "Malyutka" anti-tank guided missiles and one SPG-9 heavy anti-tank grenade launcher, which was to significantly increase the ability to combat armored vehicles by mechanized armed units  in SKOT transporters.

Edited October 27, 2020 by NeXeS-PL@psn

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

 

TOPAS 2-AP   - a variant equipped with an armed turret, developed in 1968-1971 by engineers from the Military University of Technology.  As a result of these works, a tower weighing 700 kg was developed (a pile of the tower was mounted on SKOT 2AP transporters).  It includes armament in the form of a 14.5 mm KPWT MG and a 7.62 mm PKT MG coupled with an optical sight.  The field of horizontal fire was 360º, and vertically from -5º to + 78º.  Landing staging was also rebuilt, air intakes were installed for the sake of filtration and additional fuel tanks.  The conversion of vehicles for this variant was carried out in Huta in Ostrowiec Świętokrzyski.  The first of the rebuilt vehicles marked as TOPAS 2-AP shoot in July 1971 at the training ground in Ustka [1].  These vehicles came in two variants: a variant for landing platoons (3 crew members and 12 landing soldiers with full equipment) and a variant for mortar platoons (3 crew members and 2 mortars and 8 soldiers of their service).

Edited October 27, 2020 by NeXeS-PL@psn

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

Leopard 2PL

[Jakub04m 16]

i thought a bit about the tree proposed made by u, and i find it filled with too much prototypes. What is especially ridiculous in my opinion is adding PL-01 concept, although being a nice looking vehicle. 75% of this tank is just a mockup, including entire turret. it is even less autentic than removed Panther II. in its place a much better vehicle would be Anders 120, having comparable armour and armament to CV90-120 (10.3).   It can easily work at 10.3, or even 10.7 considering advantages of unmanned turret.

[Jakub04m 16]

Also, what do you think about joint Polish-Hungarian tree, or eventually eastern european tree? Pol-Hu tree can fix the hole in polish WW2-era vehicles and polish ones can very well suplement Hungarian top-tier.

I made some raw proposal for that:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H6v3vjwLIMDXe_N56ZbWYB5bp3ht4U5Y3v7EAbneU-c/edit#gid=1398576623

(i didnt add polish and polish/hungarian flags yet)

[AftiksPL 197]

24 minutes ago, Jakub04m said:

Also, what do you think about joint Polish-Hungarian tree, or eventually eastern european tree? Pol-Hu tree can fix the hole in polish WW2-era vehicles and polish ones can very well suplement Hungarian 

The project looks a bit poor, there are really many Hungarian and Polish machines missing,

ots of copy-paste that could be replaced with other vehicles. 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DXxIOK4Af2NAwi_eWN6FzfI7iJwc54xEjARJj229SAo/edit?usp=drivesdk

here you have my Polish tree project, there are many machines that you can use in yours

 

[Jakub04m 16]

i have to agree your tree got much more vehicles, but i got to disagree with some of them. For my proposal i had 4 main criteria: no paper tanks (TAS may be arguable), all tanks had to be used or made by polish/hungarian forces (so no T-44, Challenger, Covenanter and preferably IS-3), all vehicles should make sense in game (the main issue with all these mortars and artillery, for Goździk i was able to found some HEAT rounds so it can work, but others would be nearly useless against top-tier MBTs, the last one is limiting prototypes such as PT-16/17 or BWP-1 Brimstone which are often more of a concept vehicles.

 

I understand that you could have other criteria for yours, also i see quite a bit of copy-paste in yours in WW2-era.

 

Although i have to give you justice, you found a lot of intresting vehicles for light tank/ IFV line, and even half of these would be enough to make a really good line for tech tree

[AftiksPL 197]

Poland used Covenanters, Chalenngers and IS-3, most of the low-tier vehicles are new or different from those in the game (Valentine V has an additional crew member, Churchill IV has a new cast turret and other weapons, Cromwell VI has a 95mm howitzer, Challenger VII late has additional armor) We also already have vehicles similar to the PT-17 and BWP-1 Brimstone in the game, the Radkampfwagen 90 never received an armed turret and was only a technology demonstrator, so such vehicles take place in the game

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

T-72M1R

As part of the renovation and modification of the T-72M1 to the T-72M1R standard, the W-46-6 diesel engines with a power of 573 kW received an additional digital start-up system.  New power systems with buffer batteries were also installed.  PCO provided passive instruments for the driver (PNK-72 Radomek in place of the active TWNE-4B) and the commander (POD-72 Liswarta in place of TKN-3), the PCT-72 Periscope Thermal Vision Sight was also installed, equipped with 3rd generation KLW-1 thermal imaging cameras  Asteria for the gunner (in place of the TPN-1-49-23 night sight).  At the rear of the tower there is a basket for additional fuel canisters, an air supply pipe to the engine when crossing water fords and a fireproof cover.  The tanks received new sets of tracks.

[RazNaRok 616]

On 27/10/2020 at 13:38, AftiksPL said:

and IS-3

 

Just two demo vehicles... Those were to be used for familiarize Polish tankers with the new equipment.

At the turn of 1946/1947, Poland bought 2 IS-3 tanks (serial numbers: 703.604A81 and 703.605A58).

There were plans to equip the Polish army with those. However, those plans were quickly abandoned.

 

Those Mainly were only an attraction of the military parades organized in Warsaw.

Eventually, one of them was sent to the training ground in Orzysz, where it served as a training target.

In the 90s, the wreck was renovated. Currently, it is presented at the Museum of Polish Military Technology in Warsaw.

The second one went to the Technical Officers School of Armored and Mechanized Forces in Giżycko in 1951.

Currently, it is exhibited at the Armored Weapons Museum in Poznań.
 

Edited October 28, 2020 by RazNaRok

[RazNaRok 616]

14TP

 

Afraid that such an innovative design as a wheel-c u m-track tank 10TP may prove to be an impractical solution, the BBTBr.Panc. started working on a tracked-only vehicle. Work on the new vehicle design began as early as at the turn of 1936/37. The new tank, which received the military designation 14TP, was to be an extension of the 10TP tank design, but adapted exclusively for driving on tracks.

 

In some documents it is referred to as an assault tank.

 

In April 1937 the new vehicle was already in the preliminary study phase. At that time Commander of Armoured Weapons applied to the 2nd Deputy Minister of Military Affairs for purchase of new French tanks SOMUA S-35 with the rights for licence production in Poland. He justified his request with the fact that the 14 TP tank would not enter serial production earlier than in 1940. At the same time he stressed that undertaking licence production would reduce the time needed to introduce new tanks to the Polish Army by half.

 However, since the French refused to sell both the tanks and licence rights, the work on the 14 TP tank was resumed after a short interruption.

 

In June 1938 the construction of the tank was already finished, thanks to which an order was placed with PZInż for about 60% of the needed components. The leaf springs and tracks were shipped in the same month.  In July 1938, the engine and gearbox were to be received. Further work continued on the turret drives and elevation mechanism.

 

Optimistic calculations showed that in March 1939 factory tests of the tank could take place. Unfortunately, they did not because the Germans did not agree to sell the engine. It was only thanks to the intervention of engineer Roman Schellenberg, who as a representative of the German company 'Wirtschaftagruppe Automobilindustrie' in Poland, had extensive knowledge and influence that permission was given for the purchase of the Maybach tank engine. Nevertheless, as one can guess, the Germans deliberately delayed the order so that the engine was not sent to Poland until the outbreak of war. The planes were to produce 560 tanks by 1943.

 

The unfinished prototype of the 14TP tank was destroyed in September 1939 on the premises of the PZInż factory so that it would not fall into the hands of the enemy.

 

The only preserved and very schematic sketch of the 14TP presents it as a design almost identical externally to the 10TP tank. A significant difference was the more sloping homogeneous hull front plate and Bofors (PZInż220) type turret, although it retained Christie type wheels as in 10TP.

The 14TP was to be equipped with a 4V+1 type mechanical gearbox. Steering was to be carried out by means of side clutches with hydraulic drives. The suspension was meant to be independent with vertical springs.  According to a statement made by the then Head of the PZinż., engineer Edward Habich (who was consulted on the project), the armor had different thickness in different places. The thickest plates were to be used in the frontal armour of the hull and turret.

 

The aspects of the final armament of the tank are also not entirely certain. According to engineer Edward Habich, just before the war, after receiving the results of trial shots with the prototype 47 mm cannon, the possibility of equipping the new vehicle with it was considered. As this would require the use of a new larger turret, PZlnż. received an order for its design. The outbreak of war interrupted this work at the design stage.

 

Technical data:

Tank weight in combat readiness - approx. 14 000 kg.

Length - approx. 5400 mm.

Width - about 2180 mm.

Height - approx. 2180 mm.

Ground clearance - approx. 380 mm.

Engine - Maybach with carburetor, 12-cylinder, water-cooled, 300 HP 2800 RPM.

Maximum speed: on the road - approx. 60 km/h.

Obstacle-crossing capabilities  - ditches over 2 metres wide.

Armament - 37 mm calibre cannon coaxial witch machine gun, machine gun in front of hull.

Armouring made of steel plates-  35-50 mm in thickness.

Crew - 4 people.

 

 

Two line drawings supposed to be the 14TP – Source: Poligon magazine, 2010/1
The 14TP project was carried out by designers from the Biuro Badań Technicznych Broni Pancernych (BBTBrPanc, Armored Weapons Technical Research Bureau) and Państwowe Zakłady Inżynierii (PZInż, National Institution of Engineering).

 

 

 

A very liberal ‘what-if’ reconstruction of the 14TP tank based on the account of Eng. Edward Habich written by Piotr Zarzycki.

The drawings are an artistic interpretation of the 14TP made by RazNaRok

 

Based on: Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia - Wrzesień 1939. Tom 151. Prototypy broni Pancernej.
Published with unchanged content with the consent of the author of the study.
All rights reserved Piotr Zarzycki

 

Proper translation from Polish to English done in cooperation with Polish Community Co-Ordinator performed by Dymitr Osiński

To whom I would like to hereby thank for the help.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by RazNaRok

[Gniadex 48]

23 hours ago, RazNaRok said:

Armament - 37 mm calibre cannon coaxial witch machine gun, machine gun in front of hull.

There was also a plan to take new 47 mm wz.39 cannon and machine guns Typ C. Too bad that Polish Army don't get 14TP

[RazNaRok 616]

On 29/10/2020 at 16:53, Gniadex said:

There was also a plan to take new 47 mm wz.39 cannon and machine guns Typ C. Too bad that Polish Army don't get 14TP

 

I know those details of the alternative armament and turret and some more...,

In above publication of Mr. Piotr the 47mm anti tank gun is also mention.
However according to my agreement wit Mr Piotr, I did and could publish only the unchanged translation of His study as the latest and reliable source of information,

Therefore i couldn't post in it any other information from various alternative sources...

[Roz_Draws 8]

Impressive tech tree! Especially looking forward to seeing PL-01 some day in War Thunder. Hope this gets added!

[GrumpyStranger 723]

They'd have to model the effect of shape charges on styrofoam first for that.

[Jakub04m 16]

On 27/10/2020 at 13:38, AftiksPL said:

Poland used Covenanters, Chalenngers and IS-3, most of the low-tier vehicles are new or different from those in the game (Valentine V has an additional crew member, Churchill IV has a new cast turret and other weapons, Cromwell VI has a 95mm howitzer, Challenger VII late has additional armor) We also already have vehicles similar to the PT-17 and BWP-1 Brimstone in the game, the Radkampfwagen 90 never received an armed turret and was only a technology demonstrator, so such vehicles take place in the game

sorry for my mistake regarding british tanks. you are right as they were used at least for training. i still dont like idea of using a lot of training vehicles, they are great for filling gaps, but sometimes its just better to use vehicles that actually served, even if they are very similar to what we already have.

 

can you please give me sorce for T-44 being used by polish army? couldnt find any of these

also, i see a lot of ppl include Krab and Rak into tech trees, which are imo great vehicles irl, BUT

what purpose would they serve in game? none of them have any AT rounds, so they would need to be placed below 6.7 to do anything significant in battle except hunting SPAAs and LTs. (I didnt include 2S1 here, as it can be given powerfull HEAT-FS rounds (BK-6M or BK-13))

[AftiksPL 197]

2 hours ago, Jakub04m said:

can you please give me sorce for T-44 being used by polish army? couldnt find any of these

The T-44 has already been talked about on this topic, the main sources being CIA documents

2 hours ago, Jakub04m said:

also, i see a lot of ppl include Krab and Rak into tech trees, which are imo great vehicles irl, BUT

what purpose would they serve in game?

at the beginning I did not want to add RAK, but some people suggested it, so I added. As for the Crab, it has newer ammo and a larger caliber of the main gun than the Type 75 which is 6.7, so the Krab could be 7.7-8.0

2 hours ago, Jakub04m said:

i still dont like idea of using a lot of training vehicles, they are great for filling gaps, but sometimes its just better to use vehicles that actually served, even if they are very similar to what we already have.

for me, a better solution seems to be using a vehicles that is not in the game and was used by Poles than giving another copy-paste, there are also not too many training vehicles in my project, only 5, you can give some other machines instead, but why?

[RazNaRok 616]

15 hours ago, Jakub04m said:

 

can you please give me sorce for T-44 being used by polish army?

 

The 15th Tank Training Regiment in Gliwice, Poland a.d.1961. Had these as training vehicles.

 

1. T-44 in WP, 15th Tank Training Regiment in Gliwice, Poland. Pages: 10, 11, 49.

2. T-44 in WP, Arrival of new tanks.

 

One of these is exhibited at private collection of scrap yard owner of Ściechów near Gorzów in Lubuskie Province.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by RazNaRok

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion

 

Modified Poland DANA ‑ M

 

The scope of modification of the 152 mm Dana-M self-propelled howitzer, on the one hand, improves the efficiency of technical and material protection processes as part of supporting the operation of the equipment by replacing obsolete installations, assemblies and parts, i.e. extending the service life of the entire system and increasing its reparability. On the other hand, a number of other changes to the design and equipment of Dana were implemented, including improved the traction characteristics and working conditions of the crew.
It must not be forgotten that in the case of Polish Danes, procedures were already carried out to increase fire efficiency by reducing the preparation time to start shooting. It is about the assembly of elements of the TOPAZ Automated Fire Control Kit (ZZKO) by WB Electronics SA, started in 2007: the DD9620T commander's computer, the LIOD-F displays of the target and loaders along with new means of external communication (RRC9500 radio) and internal (FONET with central unit KOMUT-10A / TA). Until today, this work has involved around 90 Dan.
The changes introduced as part of the modification to the DANA ‑ M standard mainly concern the chassis and its systems.
The most striking feature is the new glazed cab and the commander's workplace. Instead of two small windows closed with armored covers in the front panel and slots in the side walls, it got four large windows with armored glass - the front ones now cover almost the entire surface of the front panel, the side ones are new. These changes significantly improved the field of observation of both crew members, very important while driving. In the original solution, the observation angles from the driver's seat were as follows (front / left / right) - 72 ° / 10 ° / 6 °, and after modification they were 80 ° / 35 ° / 25 °. The scope of the driver's observation was additionally significantly improved by the system of three cameras enabling the observation of the space at the rear of the vehicle: two side and rear. They all have LED lighting. The image from the cameras is displayed on a monitor mounted on the instrument panel. It should be added that the new driver's and commander's cab provides ballistic cover at level 1 according to STANAG 4569A.
The working conditions of the driver and commander have improved: new seats that reduce the effects of explosions under the chassis, installation of an independent air conditioning and heating system for the cabin, and a new filtering system. Independent heating was also introduced for the cabins located in the tower.
Thanks to other modifications made to the four-axle Tatra 815 VP31 29 265 8 × 8.1R chassis, the driving characteristics were improved, which reduced the driver's load. The former were provided by modification of the air-cooled Tatra T3-930.52 12-cylinder diesel engine, which received a turbocharger and intercooler, and a new Sachs 430 clutch. Modifications were also made to the intake and exhaust systems, as well as the cooling and overload control system. These changes resulted in an increase in engine power from 253.7 kW / 345 hp at 2,200 rpm to 265 kW / 360 hp at 1,900 rpm, an increase in maximum torque from 1,250 Nm at 1,400 rpm to 1,650 Nm at 1,200 rpm and reduced fuel consumption. The new clutch with a disc diameter of 430 mm (previously 420 mm) allows for trouble-free transmission of higher torque. The modified engine was designated Tatra T3-930.52M.

 

However, it shoots old standard ammunition for the Polish wz. 77 DANA.

They are a combination of modernization projects proposed under the DANA-M1 CZ and DANA-M2 projects. EG Polska is also a supplier of foreign components and license construction and technological documentation regarding modification areas.

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

Each PSR-A Pilica fire unit consists of two 23-mm ZUR-23-2SP Jodek anti-aircraft guns, being a modification of the ZU-23-2, two Piorun / Grom missile launchers, as well as a computerized command post, Soła radar, observation point  and a wired and radio communication system

[RazNaRok 616]

8 hours ago, NeXeS-PL@psn said:

Each PSR-A Pilica ...

 

Can the 2x23mm AAA ZUR-23-2SP be operated/fired from mounted position on it's carier !?

As far as was seen in Ustka proving grounds only Piorun / Grom missiles were fired while this AAA system was mounted on carrier.

For operating/firing the 2x23mm AAA ZUR-23-2SP it has to be probably dismounted, due to the effect of recoils... with makes it obsolete it WT game play due to game mechanics.

Edited November 6, 2020 by RazNaRok

[RazNaRok 616]

Stokrotka Daisy Artillery Rocket System

 

 

 

The Stokrotka Daisy ( ZRN-01) Artillery Rocket System has been designed by the Polish company WB Group in collaboration with Ukrainian company UkrOboronProm

to protect military facilities and concentration of forces from unmanned aerial vehicles and to assist the land forces in their missions:

1. Detection and destruction of ground targets such as: infantry, light armoured vehicles, command posts, fuel and ammunition depots.
2. Detection and destruction of helicopters and light flying targets – mainly Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.

 

 

The system is composed of two B8V20 rocket launchers with unguided 80 mm RS-80P missiles. These missiles are the same than the one used on the Mi-24 attack helicopter. The missiles are equipped with different time fuses and different types of warheads depending on the threat (ground or aerial). The ZRN-01 has an operationnal firing range of 7000 meters (horizontal) against ground targets and 4000 meters (vertical) against aerial targets. A radar system is integrated to detect targets with low effective dispersion surface, such as UAV at a distance up to 6 km. The Missile System is mounted on an Autobox 6×6 Star 266M2 terrain vehicle.

 

 

 

The system is equipped with the Topaz Automated Fire Control System developed by WB Group. The use of TOPAZ provides the opportunity to optimise the utilisation of available artillery fire resources to ensure adequate firepower at the right time and the right place. With a three-man crew, the ZRN-01 Daisy uses a Star 266M2 6×6 modified cross-country truck chassis with an eight-ton winch and a range of 700 km. The system can engage ground targets at a range of up to 7,000 m, and aerial targets up to 4,000 m.

 

 

 

Well, what country ... such a STAR TREK ...

PGZ... probably did invest a lot of taxpayers' money to make something that in Syria is made with a simplest welding machine and obscure angle grinder in some kind of barn.
What's better... this type of steampunk, created in response to the real needs of the battlefield by the forces of various guerrilla MacGyver's often look more sensible than the products of the Polish arms industry ... they are not children of pretending that a Polish arms industry and its products are needed for anything ...

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by RazNaRok

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

T-72M1Z - T-72M1 tank modernized to the" TWARDY" standard;  ERAWA and ERAWA-2 reactive armor cubes with a modular structure (the so-called 3rd generation), a 700 kg car lighter and with greater ground clearance than the PT-91 (due to the lack of alterations to the bottom), other communication equipment

[NeXeS-PL@psn 270]

On 6.11.2020 at 14:50, RazNaRok said:

 

Czy 2x23mm AAA ZUR-23-2SP może być obsługiwany / wystrzeliwany z zamontowanej pozycji na jego nośniku!?

Na poligonach w Ustce odpalano tylko pociski Piorun / Grom, podczas gdy ten zestaw przeciwlotniczy był zamontowany na lotniskowcu.

Do obsługi / strzelania z AAA 2x23mm ZUR-23-2SP trzeba go prawdopodobnie zdemontować ze względu na efekt odrzutu ... co sprawia, że jest on przestarzały w grze WT ze względu na mechanikę gry.

You have poor information regarding this system.  If the damage range is about 5km, it is suitable for 8.0-9.0