Posted October 28, 2021 Summary of arguments and rebuttals Picture of the JDAM on the F-4EJ Kai? it is just for display. Is the ADTW's F-4EJ's new antenna is GPS antenna? It's been installed since 1988, so that is not a GPS antenna. A picture of the F-4EJ Kai with the XGCS-2? Just performing aerodynamics and separation tests with dummy bomb, not real bomb. F-4EJ Kai's GCS-1? No ground attack ability due to seeker's performance F-4EJ Kai's AGM-62 or AGM-65? When producing the F-4EJ, all equipment was removed, and no functions were added even in EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... コタリ 2,733 Report post Posted October 15, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: I found that JDAM is not available for TER-9 Triple Racks. The bomb rack on that EJ Kai could still be a BRU-42/A ITER. TER-9 is just another name for the BRU-42. From MEC's website: The Triple Ejector Rack is manufactured in its original TER-9/A configuration, and a “high speed” modification which is officially designated TER-9/A MOD. https://marvineng.com/product_category/ejector-racks/ Also notice how they make no distinction between the TER-9A and BRU-42A meaning they are the same thing. If Japan bought TER-9A's they just didn't buy the aerodynamic MOD body kit which you guys seem to be confusing the body kit to signify whether the rack is a 9 or 9/A. Either way it's impossible to tell just from this picture and I don't buy "some guy said so" from that twitter post. https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/ter.htm Spoiler The US pretty much only bought 9/A MODs so it's pretty hard to come by pictures of the US using the old body kit, but Spoiler Now I'll play devils advocate here and say that the rack in that photo is just a BRU-42 and not an A. What does that change? Well from what we've seen so far, absolutely nothing. Just from the reddit post you linked we know that there is nothing stopping JDAMs from being loaded onto any pylon. They just have to be programmed on the ground prior to flight and will function correctly. I haven't played the dev server, but just from the dev stream we have seen the JDAMs being used on pre programmed bombing points, so I don't see the issue. What about alternatives? Gaijin can simply say the rack in game is a BRU-42A. Gaijin can just switch the rack to BRU-57A's as those are compatible. Gaijin can change them to GBU-54s which have no issues with whatever rack they are mounted on, then give the EJ a Pave Spike. I don't get what it is with the Japan community where they constantly whine about unfair treatment towards Japan, yet are the first ones to try and stop Japan getting equal treatment when it comes to liberty of weapons selection. I seriously am beginning to not be able to stand these armament purists zealots who seemingly only hold these views when it comes to Japanese vehicles. I'll start taking you guys seriously when you bug report the other 50 vehicles that Gaijin has taken similar creative liberties with that have been in the game for much much much longer. Until then quit pissing your pants in rage every time something like this happens, because the same thing happens to literally every other nation in what seems like every other patch, yet you don't see their player bases throwing massive tantrums about it especially when it benefits them. Edited October 16, 2021 by AnimeThighs 7 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 Would removing the JDAM and replacing it with the GCS-1 be that big of a nerf? It can carry more and heavier versions of the GCS-1 than the JDAM can, and honestly wouldn't it be deadlier since you can basically just launch it in the general direction of the enemy and it'll just lock onto whatever heat source it sees without needing to be designated or anything. Granted it'll be thrown off by other hot objects too if Gaijin models that like corpses. I'm really hoping that the JDAM was just a quick addition as a placeholder until GCS-1 can be modeled to appease the Japanese community, since some of us went into a bit of a uproar when we didn't receive the already-modeled GCS-1 bomb kits. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator aizenns 3,591 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 9 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: I haven't played the dev server, but just from the dev stream we have seen the JDAMs being used on pre programmed bombing points, so I don't see the issue. I'm sorry but for my eyes in Dev stream JDAM is not used pre programmed bombing points, and pilot set target from the cockpit Is the F-4 EJ Kai had any system to do such thing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, aizenns said: I'm sorry but for my eyes in Dev stream JDAM is not used pre programmed bombing points, and pilot set target from the cockpit Is the F-4 EJ Kai had any system to do such thing? They do, at least for me i have just researched them, i'll record a smal clip and put it up here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 (edited) Any kind of TER-9 = cannot use JDAM Only the Smart Triple Advanced Rack, an improved version of the TER-9, can use JDAM, but the Smart Triple Advanced Rack is still under development and does not have flight qualified. Spoiler Smart Triple Advanced Rack (STAR) is a Marvin Engineering initiative to enable the carriage and release of MIL-STD-1760 and MMSI precision guided weapons such as JDAM and SDB I and SDB II. This is a developmental item which is not yet flight qualified. Therefore, it can be concluded that the F-4EJ Kai equipped with JDAM is for display purposes only. Or what, would you claim to equip the JDAM kit and use it like an unguided bomb? Edited October 16, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... spamanator500 94 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 13 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: I don't get what it is with the Japan community where they constantly whine about unfair treatment towards Japan, yet are the first ones to try and stop Japan getting equal treatment when it comes to liberty of weapons selection. I seriously am beginning to not be able to stand these armament purists zealots who seemingly only hold these views when it comes to Japanese vehicles. I'll start taking you guys seriously when you bug report the other 50 vehicles that Gaijin has taken similar creative liberties with that have been in the game for much much much longer. Until then quit pissing your pants in rage every time something like this happens, because the same thing happens to literally every other nation in what seems like every other patch, yet you don't see their player bases throwing massive tantrums about it especially when it benefits them. So you want us to bug report the R2Y2(All versions), Ho-ri (production), Type 87 RCV, Type 74C? You do realize that the vehicles that have been in the game and shouldn't be (as you've mentioned) have stayed to "keep enough vehicles in the techtree" and "for balance" yet they are the least balanced vehicles in some regard right? We can look at how the R2Y2 was initially kept as a high-tier bomber for Japan, but now it isn't a bomber anymore, the "Ho-Ri Production" has "no replacements" yet we have the Type 60 ATM and SPRG which can fit in their "Self Propelled Gun / Tank Destroyer" line and let the first line just be a Import / Light vehicle line, The RCV overperformed at its original BR with the APFSDS as expected and the Type 74 didn't get its new rounds to "make it unique" and put it in a different BR. All of this has either been reported and/or have been discussed in the past, although I do think you can't see some of the earlier discussions as they have been "truncated" during the many forum upgrades. The main issue here is that you think that other nations don't have issues with unhistorical vehicles, and people just accept buffs and are happy with it, but they do report and do complain about unhistorical vehicles. We saw this with the SK-105 Kurassier getting a stabilizer for its main gun, and this was discussed extensively and removed, AMBT's 25mm having the velocity from a full length barrel when it didn't, and heck even premium vehicles such as the M60A1 Ariete which shouldn't have had a stabilizer from the beginning was pulled from the shop when they bug report went through (as it changed the characteristics of the vehicle post report). The examples I've mentioned above are pretty much the same thing as the F-4EJ改 getting JDAMs at the moment and it does deserve to be discussed and reported, so we can get Gaijin's stance on its unhistorical introduction. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... oom1992 649 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 I think should add GCS-1 infrared guided bombs instead GBU-32 JDAM for F-4EJ Kai Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-4EJ Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-1 and Mitsubishi T-2. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... CotorShas 427 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 JDAMs are kinda a meme in game. Not very useful. That said I don't have an issue with them if gaijn gives us full racks of them and the option for racks+aim9s. Funny and bad is never a *bad* addition and if it gets proper time queue notifications (min/max drop range) I could see them being very useful in things like sim/EC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 passed 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... oom1992 649 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, _David_Bowie_ said: passed and developer change guided bomb weapons from GBU-38 JDAM is GCS-1 infrared guided bombs to F-4EJ KAI ? Edited October 17, 2021 by oom1992 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 the question is how would we implement the GCS? I thought it only can lock ships and cant be used against normal ground units? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Steppe Ghost 4 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 Dropping it here just in case From gszabi's datamine part 3&4: Currently UNUSED new weapons: Navy 500 lbs GBU-38 500 lbs Mk. 82 GCS-1 750 lbs M117 GCS-1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 10 hours ago, warhead_beast said: the question is how would we implement the GCS? I thought it only can lock ships and cant be used against normal ground units? Currently, their behavior can be surmised to be similar to IR missiles but without a motor. Acquire tone, elevate for uncage before launch to allow the bomb to reach the target, and release. That said, their current behavior might be placeholder, but I think if they get added in their current form, they should offer an interesting CAS option for aircraft from the T-2, F-1, and F-4EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... AngelPipes 31 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 On 16/10/2021 at 21:31, oom1992 said: I think should add GCS-1 infrared guided bombs instead GBU-32 JDAM for F-4EJ Kai Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-4EJ Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-1 and Mitsubishi T-2. Dunno about f-4 but about F-1/T-2 inhale japan sicret dokumentum Spoiler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: Currently, their behavior can be surmised to be similar to IR missiles but without a motor. Acquire tone, elevate for uncage before launch to allow the bomb to reach the target, and release. That said, their current behavior might be placeholder, but I think if they get added in their current form, they should offer an interesting CAS option for aircraft from the T-2, F-1, and F-4EJ Kai. No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Spoiler From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Edited October 18, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, minibebra said: Dunno about f-4 but about F-1/T-2 inhale japan sicret dokumentum For the F-4EJ Kai, each pylon can carry three 500lb GCS-1, Therefore, 3x5=15, a total of 15 GCS-1s can be used Edited October 18, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... 丨ō益ō丨 123 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 57 minutes ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Hide contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Does that mean the guided bomb only can only maneuver within the CCRP/CCIP circle or can the bombs guide outside the predicted CCRP/CCIP (if using the CCRP/CCIP to drop bombs)? If it's the former, it still might be useful to drop a payload of guided bombs within a "zone" (a cap point in ground RB, for example) and let the bombs do their job as long as you have an idea of where the bombs will scatter within a certain circle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, KILL001 said: Does that mean the guided bomb only can only maneuver within the CCRP/CCIP circle or can the bombs guide outside the predicted CCRP/CCIP (if using the CCRP/CCIP to drop bombs)? If it's the former, it still might be useful to drop a payload of guided bombs within a "zone" (a cap point in ground RB, for example) and let the bombs do their job as long as you have an idea of where the bombs will scatter within a certain circle CCIP is used to know the drop location and has nothing to do with the bomb's maneuver. So, in this situation, second one is correct. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Fireraid233 4,274 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 2 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Reveal hidden contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 I guess we will have to see how they will work in game. Other than that Japan doesn't have much in terms of Air to ground guided munitions sadly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 5 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Reveal hidden contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Preparation for a report would be reasonable to pursue (should it be released in the current state) in that case, as I was discussing the in-game performance in the current state of things. Right now, it is effectively modeled as an IR missile with no motor. Testing of the model in a user mission showed that you had to acquire tone with the bomb by aiming it boresighted, once it acquired a target, you could uncage to superelevate so that the bomb would reach the target. It should be noted that I'm not sure if a feature to allow for the IR seeker to activate after launch is available, and so this might be the method by which IR guidance for bombs can be emulated within the current limitations of the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Tasty95215 2,099 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 Found an official technical outline for the GCS-1 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030514152045/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp/kunrei/i_fd/iz1991p5001.html Unfortunately, it seems most of the tables and figures are no longer available so I'm not sure how useful it'd be for any bug reports. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tasty95215 said: Found an official technical outline for the GCS-1 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030514152045/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp/kunrei/i_fd/iz1991p5001.html Unfortunately, it seems most of the tables and figures are no longer available so I'm not sure how useful it'd be for any bug reports. Luckily the tables don't hold any information on how it functions, it only lists the specifications. Section 3 lists that: 3. Main function 3.1 Guidance device The Main function of the guidance device are as follows. (1) Throw Guided munitions are thrown from the onboard mother machine. (2) Initial guided bomb The stabilizer wings are deployed after the bomb is thrown, the steering wings are unlocked, the wind vane state is reached, and the bomb falls in an uncontrolled state. (3) Medium-term guided bomb Starts control after the attitude stabilizes, the pitch system and yaw system perform 0G command acceleration control, and the roll system performs roll control at a constant state to approach the target. During this time, the guidance unit searches for a target. (4) Terminal guided bomb Starts homing when it catches infrared rays emitted from the target within the field of view of the guiding part, and is guided to the target. (5) Detonation The guided bomb detonates after impact, the fuze operates. 3.2 Safety 3.2.1 Safety during storage / transportation / handling The stability during storage / transportation / handling is as follows. Guided munitions are kept safe by the safety mechanism inside the fuze mechanically blocking the transmission path. 3.2.2 Safety while the mother machine is mounted and safety release after the shot The safety while the mother machine is mounted and the safety release after the shot are as follows. (1) While the mother machine is mounted, the guided bomb is kept safe by the safety mechanism inside the fuze. (2) After the shot, the safety mechanism inside the fuze is released by the deployment of the stabilizing wings and the rotation of the tail rotor. Though, sadly, two crucial parts is missing due to the result of the broken tables and that being the FoV of the seeker which is described in step (3) and (4) of 3.1; and the time it takes for it to reach the attitude controlled state described in step (3) of 3.1. Those SHOULD be described in Table 4 which describes the guidance device, which just above in Section 6 is described as such: 6.1 Guidance control unit The main functions and performance of the guidance control unit are as follows. 6.1.1 Guidance unit The guidance unit is a passive infrared guidance system that captures and tracks targets, outputs guidance signals, and has IRCCM function. The main performances are shown in Table 4. One thing that is interesting to note is that this does have some IRCCM ability, though what that specifically is isn't described anywhere. Tl;dr, steps in guiding the GCS-1: Bomb is thrown UNGUIDED and UNCONTROLLED. Bomb searches for a target within its FoV once its attitude stabilizes. Bomb AUOMATICALLY catches IR rays and is AUTOMATICALLY GUIDED towards the target. Bomb detonates on impact. No user control is needed other than launching bomb and assuring that your (hopeful) target is within the FoV. Edited October 18, 2021 by Wiggly_Armed_Man 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... 丨ō益ō丨 123 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) Depending on the FoV for the seeker and maneuverability of the bomb, it would be hilarious to see this used as a unpowered missile against stationary helicopters No missile indicators (smoke trails) either Edited October 18, 2021 by KILL001 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, KILL001 said: Depending on the FoV for the seeker and maneuverability of the bomb, it would be hilarious to see this used as a unpowered missile against stationary helicopters No missile indicators (smoke trails) either The bomb is fairly unsuited for anti air duties in the current form due to a few factors, 3G maximum allowable pull means that despite 0.15 fin AoA (13.5 degrees, only marginally worse than the AIM-9B), I've noticed in free fall that the maneuverability struggles early on, and during testing, I noticed it heavily struggled to do any meaningful damage to aircraft. A side note the one time I struck an aircraft in testing, it just gave a "hit" indicator and phased through the thing. The guidance parameters in general don't look to give the bomb a significant amount of lead to where it'd compete against slow aircraft or rotorcraft in motion. Seeker FoV is 5 degrees with flare resistance (idk under which situations a ship or tank will pop flares, so I find this mildly amusing) as well as a 30 degree uncage before launch, if you're curious about that part. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 30 Share More sharing options... Followers 2
コタリ 2,733 Report post Posted October 15, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: I found that JDAM is not available for TER-9 Triple Racks. The bomb rack on that EJ Kai could still be a BRU-42/A ITER. TER-9 is just another name for the BRU-42. From MEC's website: The Triple Ejector Rack is manufactured in its original TER-9/A configuration, and a “high speed” modification which is officially designated TER-9/A MOD. https://marvineng.com/product_category/ejector-racks/ Also notice how they make no distinction between the TER-9A and BRU-42A meaning they are the same thing. If Japan bought TER-9A's they just didn't buy the aerodynamic MOD body kit which you guys seem to be confusing the body kit to signify whether the rack is a 9 or 9/A. Either way it's impossible to tell just from this picture and I don't buy "some guy said so" from that twitter post. https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/ter.htm Spoiler The US pretty much only bought 9/A MODs so it's pretty hard to come by pictures of the US using the old body kit, but Spoiler Now I'll play devils advocate here and say that the rack in that photo is just a BRU-42 and not an A. What does that change? Well from what we've seen so far, absolutely nothing. Just from the reddit post you linked we know that there is nothing stopping JDAMs from being loaded onto any pylon. They just have to be programmed on the ground prior to flight and will function correctly. I haven't played the dev server, but just from the dev stream we have seen the JDAMs being used on pre programmed bombing points, so I don't see the issue. What about alternatives? Gaijin can simply say the rack in game is a BRU-42A. Gaijin can just switch the rack to BRU-57A's as those are compatible. Gaijin can change them to GBU-54s which have no issues with whatever rack they are mounted on, then give the EJ a Pave Spike. I don't get what it is with the Japan community where they constantly whine about unfair treatment towards Japan, yet are the first ones to try and stop Japan getting equal treatment when it comes to liberty of weapons selection. I seriously am beginning to not be able to stand these armament purists zealots who seemingly only hold these views when it comes to Japanese vehicles. I'll start taking you guys seriously when you bug report the other 50 vehicles that Gaijin has taken similar creative liberties with that have been in the game for much much much longer. Until then quit pissing your pants in rage every time something like this happens, because the same thing happens to literally every other nation in what seems like every other patch, yet you don't see their player bases throwing massive tantrums about it especially when it benefits them. Edited October 16, 2021 by AnimeThighs 7 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 Would removing the JDAM and replacing it with the GCS-1 be that big of a nerf? It can carry more and heavier versions of the GCS-1 than the JDAM can, and honestly wouldn't it be deadlier since you can basically just launch it in the general direction of the enemy and it'll just lock onto whatever heat source it sees without needing to be designated or anything. Granted it'll be thrown off by other hot objects too if Gaijin models that like corpses. I'm really hoping that the JDAM was just a quick addition as a placeholder until GCS-1 can be modeled to appease the Japanese community, since some of us went into a bit of a uproar when we didn't receive the already-modeled GCS-1 bomb kits. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator aizenns 3,591 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 9 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: I haven't played the dev server, but just from the dev stream we have seen the JDAMs being used on pre programmed bombing points, so I don't see the issue. I'm sorry but for my eyes in Dev stream JDAM is not used pre programmed bombing points, and pilot set target from the cockpit Is the F-4 EJ Kai had any system to do such thing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, aizenns said: I'm sorry but for my eyes in Dev stream JDAM is not used pre programmed bombing points, and pilot set target from the cockpit Is the F-4 EJ Kai had any system to do such thing? They do, at least for me i have just researched them, i'll record a smal clip and put it up here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 (edited) Any kind of TER-9 = cannot use JDAM Only the Smart Triple Advanced Rack, an improved version of the TER-9, can use JDAM, but the Smart Triple Advanced Rack is still under development and does not have flight qualified. Spoiler Smart Triple Advanced Rack (STAR) is a Marvin Engineering initiative to enable the carriage and release of MIL-STD-1760 and MMSI precision guided weapons such as JDAM and SDB I and SDB II. This is a developmental item which is not yet flight qualified. Therefore, it can be concluded that the F-4EJ Kai equipped with JDAM is for display purposes only. Or what, would you claim to equip the JDAM kit and use it like an unguided bomb? Edited October 16, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamanator500 94 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 13 hours ago, AnimeThighs said: I don't get what it is with the Japan community where they constantly whine about unfair treatment towards Japan, yet are the first ones to try and stop Japan getting equal treatment when it comes to liberty of weapons selection. I seriously am beginning to not be able to stand these armament purists zealots who seemingly only hold these views when it comes to Japanese vehicles. I'll start taking you guys seriously when you bug report the other 50 vehicles that Gaijin has taken similar creative liberties with that have been in the game for much much much longer. Until then quit pissing your pants in rage every time something like this happens, because the same thing happens to literally every other nation in what seems like every other patch, yet you don't see their player bases throwing massive tantrums about it especially when it benefits them. So you want us to bug report the R2Y2(All versions), Ho-ri (production), Type 87 RCV, Type 74C? You do realize that the vehicles that have been in the game and shouldn't be (as you've mentioned) have stayed to "keep enough vehicles in the techtree" and "for balance" yet they are the least balanced vehicles in some regard right? We can look at how the R2Y2 was initially kept as a high-tier bomber for Japan, but now it isn't a bomber anymore, the "Ho-Ri Production" has "no replacements" yet we have the Type 60 ATM and SPRG which can fit in their "Self Propelled Gun / Tank Destroyer" line and let the first line just be a Import / Light vehicle line, The RCV overperformed at its original BR with the APFSDS as expected and the Type 74 didn't get its new rounds to "make it unique" and put it in a different BR. All of this has either been reported and/or have been discussed in the past, although I do think you can't see some of the earlier discussions as they have been "truncated" during the many forum upgrades. The main issue here is that you think that other nations don't have issues with unhistorical vehicles, and people just accept buffs and are happy with it, but they do report and do complain about unhistorical vehicles. We saw this with the SK-105 Kurassier getting a stabilizer for its main gun, and this was discussed extensively and removed, AMBT's 25mm having the velocity from a full length barrel when it didn't, and heck even premium vehicles such as the M60A1 Ariete which shouldn't have had a stabilizer from the beginning was pulled from the shop when they bug report went through (as it changed the characteristics of the vehicle post report). The examples I've mentioned above are pretty much the same thing as the F-4EJ改 getting JDAMs at the moment and it does deserve to be discussed and reported, so we can get Gaijin's stance on its unhistorical introduction. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oom1992 649 Report post Posted October 16, 2021 I think should add GCS-1 infrared guided bombs instead GBU-32 JDAM for F-4EJ Kai Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-4EJ Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-1 and Mitsubishi T-2. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotorShas 427 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 JDAMs are kinda a meme in game. Not very useful. That said I don't have an issue with them if gaijn gives us full racks of them and the option for racks+aim9s. Funny and bad is never a *bad* addition and if it gets proper time queue notifications (min/max drop range) I could see them being very useful in things like sim/EC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 passed 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oom1992 649 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, _David_Bowie_ said: passed and developer change guided bomb weapons from GBU-38 JDAM is GCS-1 infrared guided bombs to F-4EJ KAI ? Edited October 17, 2021 by oom1992 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhead_beast 352 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 the question is how would we implement the GCS? I thought it only can lock ships and cant be used against normal ground units? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppe Ghost 4 Report post Posted October 17, 2021 Dropping it here just in case From gszabi's datamine part 3&4: Currently UNUSED new weapons: Navy 500 lbs GBU-38 500 lbs Mk. 82 GCS-1 750 lbs M117 GCS-1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 10 hours ago, warhead_beast said: the question is how would we implement the GCS? I thought it only can lock ships and cant be used against normal ground units? Currently, their behavior can be surmised to be similar to IR missiles but without a motor. Acquire tone, elevate for uncage before launch to allow the bomb to reach the target, and release. That said, their current behavior might be placeholder, but I think if they get added in their current form, they should offer an interesting CAS option for aircraft from the T-2, F-1, and F-4EJ Kai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelPipes 31 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 On 16/10/2021 at 21:31, oom1992 said: I think should add GCS-1 infrared guided bombs instead GBU-32 JDAM for F-4EJ Kai Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-4EJ Phantom II, Mitsubishi F-1 and Mitsubishi T-2. Dunno about f-4 but about F-1/T-2 inhale japan sicret dokumentum Spoiler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Optical_Ilyushin said: Currently, their behavior can be surmised to be similar to IR missiles but without a motor. Acquire tone, elevate for uncage before launch to allow the bomb to reach the target, and release. That said, their current behavior might be placeholder, but I think if they get added in their current form, they should offer an interesting CAS option for aircraft from the T-2, F-1, and F-4EJ Kai. No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Spoiler From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Edited October 18, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, minibebra said: Dunno about f-4 but about F-1/T-2 inhale japan sicret dokumentum For the F-4EJ Kai, each pylon can carry three 500lb GCS-1, Therefore, 3x5=15, a total of 15 GCS-1s can be used Edited October 18, 2021 by _David_Bowie_ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
丨ō益ō丨 123 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 57 minutes ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Hide contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Does that mean the guided bomb only can only maneuver within the CCRP/CCIP circle or can the bombs guide outside the predicted CCRP/CCIP (if using the CCRP/CCIP to drop bombs)? If it's the former, it still might be useful to drop a payload of guided bombs within a "zone" (a cap point in ground RB, for example) and let the bombs do their job as long as you have an idea of where the bombs will scatter within a certain circle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator David Bowie 1,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, KILL001 said: Does that mean the guided bomb only can only maneuver within the CCRP/CCIP circle or can the bombs guide outside the predicted CCRP/CCIP (if using the CCRP/CCIP to drop bombs)? If it's the former, it still might be useful to drop a payload of guided bombs within a "zone" (a cap point in ground RB, for example) and let the bombs do their job as long as you have an idea of where the bombs will scatter within a certain circle CCIP is used to know the drop location and has nothing to do with the bomb's maneuver. So, in this situation, second one is correct. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireraid233 4,274 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 2 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Reveal hidden contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 I guess we will have to see how they will work in game. Other than that Japan doesn't have much in terms of Air to ground guided munitions sadly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 5 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said: No, GCS-1 doesn't work like that. seeker only turns on after the stabilization device has been activated after release. Lock on the target with the aircraft's radar and drop the GCS-1 on the target using the RCCD (Release point Computing with Continuous Data) or RCID (Release point Computing with Initial Data) function. (This is for F-1, F-4EJ Kai uses CCRP and CCIP). After that, the stabilizer and seeker of the GCS-1 are turned on. After that, the seeker locks on the target that emits more than a certain amount of infrared light, and the bomb is guided towards the target. Problem is GCS-1's seeker cannot distinguish between enemies and friendly. GCS-1 is developed for anti-ship combat, so GCS-1 don't use IFF. (In anti-ship combat situations, there is no reason to use IFF on bombs as there are no friendly at sea.) Another problem is If you throw the GCS-1 from a high place, there is a high chance that the seeker of the GCS-1 will detect the friendly and attack the friendly. and if you throw it from a low place, it will hit the ground before the GCS-1 seeker activates. And another problem is the GCS-1 is designed for use at sea. seeker detects the infrared rays that the target is generated and locks only the target whose product value of sea level temperature difference x area exceeds a certain value. However, it is questionable whether it will work the same on the ground. (I think it might work on the ground given the seeker's performance, but many people think it's impossible, so I'm writing this issue) I think it's difficult for GCS-1 to appear in the game due to these various issues. For more information, please read the spoilers below. (Written in Japanese) Reveal hidden contents From 世界の傑作機 No.117 三菱 F-1 GCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装置) ASM-1に続くF-1の第2の搭載誘導武器となったのはGCS-1(91式爆弾用誘導装 置)で、GCSは"Guidance Control Set"の略である。自由落下式爆弾であるMk.82 500lb爆弾およびJM117 340kg爆弾に装着する対艦攻撃専用の赤外線誘導爆弾キットで、主契約会社は三菱電機となっている。なお、500lb爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置1型、JM117 340kg爆弾用が91式爆弾用誘導装置2型と呼称している。GCS-1が諸外国の誘導爆弾で採用されているレーザー誘導方式やTV誘導方式を採用しなかったのは、搭載母機に特別な改 修が必要ないことと、周辺諸国へ脅威を与えないため地上攻撃能力をあえて求めず、対艦攻撃専用型に特化するためであると思われる。GCS-1は制式化から10年程度調達が続けられて現在はすでに調達を終了している。調達価格は1式あたり約1,500万円程度とされている。 [開発経緯] 技本開発の後に1990年に空自による実用試験が実施された。実用試験は能登半島沖のG空域で行なわれ、20ktで航行可能な半球形赤外線放熱ドームを持つ遠隔操縦型の移動標的が用いられている。この際はシステム的なトラブルを除いては、全弾命中している。その後、1991年に装備審議会を経て91式爆弾用誘導装置として制式化された。 [構造] GCS-1の構造について、「91式爆弾用誘導装置制式要綱(平成3年4月22日発刊)」をもとに解説する。GCS-1の構造は誘導制御部、信管、操舵翼、安定翼部からなる。誘導制御部は誘導部と制御部で構成され、制御部はオートパイロット制御装置、ガスサーボ装置、電源部よりなる。オートパイロット電子装置は、内蔵する慣性センサーからの姿勢制御信号および誘導部からの誘導信号を、舵角指令信号に変換して、ガスサーボ装置に出力する。ガスサーボ装置はホットガス方式で、オートパイロット電子装置からの舵角指令信号にしたがい、内蔵のガス発生器からのホットガスを動力源と して、操舵翼の舵角を制御する。電源部は投弾によって活性化される電池から、誘導 制御部内に必要な電力を供給する。信管は弾着時の衝撃加速度を感知し、所定の時間経過後、弾体の伝爆薬を起爆する。操舵翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、ガスサーボ装置の出力軸に取り付けられ、空力的に誘導爆弾の飛翔を制御する。安定翼部は主に、安定翼およびテイルローターから構成され、安定翼は軸対称直交十字形に配列されており、母機搭載時には折りたたまれた状態に保持されている。 [GCS-1の誘導方式] 誘導方式はIR-CCD(赤外線電荷結合素子)による赤外線放射状レティクルスキャンで、投下されると投弾後に安定翼が展開し、ウインドベーン状態になり非制御状態になり落下する。姿勢安定後にジャイロの立ち上げと制御を開始し、ピッチ系およびヨー系は0G指令の加速度制御を、ロール系は一定レートのロール制御を行なって目標に接近する。この間に誘導部は目標の捜索を行なう。目標が発生する赤外線を捉えて、海面温度差x面積の積の値が一定値を超えるものへロックオンしてホーミング誘導を行なう。また、温度差が異常に高いものにはフレアー判定を行なうIRCCM(赤外線妨害排除)機能を備えており、実用試験では実際に標的船の近くに遠隔操作可能なフレアー発生装置を搭載したブイを海上へ設置してIRCCMの能力確認試験を行なっている。 [GCS-1の運用] GCS-1のF-1への搭載にあたって特筆すべきは、GCS-1の装備にともなって、CCIP(命中点連続計算)とCCRP(投下点連続計算)といった2つある既存の爆撃管制モードの外に、新たにもう2つのモードが追 加されたことである。1つはRCCD(Release point Computing with Continuous Data:投下点計測計算)で、レーダーに目標へのロックオンを続させて目標データを更新しつつ、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。もう1つRCID(Release point Computing with Initial Data:投下点初期値計算)で、いったんレーダーに目標をロック オンさせて目標初期値を取り込み、ステアリングコマンドにしたがって飛行すると自動的に投下される。これらの爆撃モードでは、レーダーと爆撃コンピューターにより自動的に爆撃計算が行なわれ、人間を介さないことから手動による目標取り込み誤差が含まれない。そのため、OFP(Operational Flight Program)改修の点からこのモードを持つことができず、目標取り込みを手動で行なうF-4EJ改より、F-1の方がGCS-1の目標への命中確率は高いと言われる。なお、GCS-1では実射をともなう練成訓練は行なわれていないので、調達量=備蓄量となっている(F-4EJ改において実射をともなう運用研究は実施されている)。 Preparation for a report would be reasonable to pursue (should it be released in the current state) in that case, as I was discussing the in-game performance in the current state of things. Right now, it is effectively modeled as an IR missile with no motor. Testing of the model in a user mission showed that you had to acquire tone with the bomb by aiming it boresighted, once it acquired a target, you could uncage to superelevate so that the bomb would reach the target. It should be noted that I'm not sure if a feature to allow for the IR seeker to activate after launch is available, and so this might be the method by which IR guidance for bombs can be emulated within the current limitations of the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasty95215 2,099 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 Found an official technical outline for the GCS-1 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030514152045/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp/kunrei/i_fd/iz1991p5001.html Unfortunately, it seems most of the tables and figures are no longer available so I'm not sure how useful it'd be for any bug reports. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tasty95215 said: Found an official technical outline for the GCS-1 here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030514152045/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp/kunrei/i_fd/iz1991p5001.html Unfortunately, it seems most of the tables and figures are no longer available so I'm not sure how useful it'd be for any bug reports. Luckily the tables don't hold any information on how it functions, it only lists the specifications. Section 3 lists that: 3. Main function 3.1 Guidance device The Main function of the guidance device are as follows. (1) Throw Guided munitions are thrown from the onboard mother machine. (2) Initial guided bomb The stabilizer wings are deployed after the bomb is thrown, the steering wings are unlocked, the wind vane state is reached, and the bomb falls in an uncontrolled state. (3) Medium-term guided bomb Starts control after the attitude stabilizes, the pitch system and yaw system perform 0G command acceleration control, and the roll system performs roll control at a constant state to approach the target. During this time, the guidance unit searches for a target. (4) Terminal guided bomb Starts homing when it catches infrared rays emitted from the target within the field of view of the guiding part, and is guided to the target. (5) Detonation The guided bomb detonates after impact, the fuze operates. 3.2 Safety 3.2.1 Safety during storage / transportation / handling The stability during storage / transportation / handling is as follows. Guided munitions are kept safe by the safety mechanism inside the fuze mechanically blocking the transmission path. 3.2.2 Safety while the mother machine is mounted and safety release after the shot The safety while the mother machine is mounted and the safety release after the shot are as follows. (1) While the mother machine is mounted, the guided bomb is kept safe by the safety mechanism inside the fuze. (2) After the shot, the safety mechanism inside the fuze is released by the deployment of the stabilizing wings and the rotation of the tail rotor. Though, sadly, two crucial parts is missing due to the result of the broken tables and that being the FoV of the seeker which is described in step (3) and (4) of 3.1; and the time it takes for it to reach the attitude controlled state described in step (3) of 3.1. Those SHOULD be described in Table 4 which describes the guidance device, which just above in Section 6 is described as such: 6.1 Guidance control unit The main functions and performance of the guidance control unit are as follows. 6.1.1 Guidance unit The guidance unit is a passive infrared guidance system that captures and tracks targets, outputs guidance signals, and has IRCCM function. The main performances are shown in Table 4. One thing that is interesting to note is that this does have some IRCCM ability, though what that specifically is isn't described anywhere. Tl;dr, steps in guiding the GCS-1: Bomb is thrown UNGUIDED and UNCONTROLLED. Bomb searches for a target within its FoV once its attitude stabilizes. Bomb AUOMATICALLY catches IR rays and is AUTOMATICALLY GUIDED towards the target. Bomb detonates on impact. No user control is needed other than launching bomb and assuring that your (hopeful) target is within the FoV. Edited October 18, 2021 by Wiggly_Armed_Man 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
丨ō益ō丨 123 Report post Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) Depending on the FoV for the seeker and maneuverability of the bomb, it would be hilarious to see this used as a unpowered missile against stationary helicopters No missile indicators (smoke trails) either Edited October 18, 2021 by KILL001 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Moderator Optical_Ilyushin 5,554 Report post Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, KILL001 said: Depending on the FoV for the seeker and maneuverability of the bomb, it would be hilarious to see this used as a unpowered missile against stationary helicopters No missile indicators (smoke trails) either The bomb is fairly unsuited for anti air duties in the current form due to a few factors, 3G maximum allowable pull means that despite 0.15 fin AoA (13.5 degrees, only marginally worse than the AIM-9B), I've noticed in free fall that the maneuverability struggles early on, and during testing, I noticed it heavily struggled to do any meaningful damage to aircraft. A side note the one time I struck an aircraft in testing, it just gave a "hit" indicator and phased through the thing. The guidance parameters in general don't look to give the bomb a significant amount of lead to where it'd compete against slow aircraft or rotorcraft in motion. Seeker FoV is 5 degrees with flare resistance (idk under which situations a ship or tank will pop flares, so I find this mildly amusing) as well as a 30 degree uncage before launch, if you're curious about that part. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Summary of arguments and rebuttals
Picture of the JDAM on the F-4EJ Kai?
it is just for display.
Is the ADTW's F-4EJ's new antenna is GPS antenna?
It's been installed since 1988, so that is not a GPS antenna.
A picture of the F-4EJ Kai with the XGCS-2?
Just performing aerodynamics and separation tests with dummy bomb, not real bomb.
F-4EJ Kai's GCS-1?
No ground attack ability due to seeker's performance
F-4EJ Kai's AGM-62 or AGM-65?
When producing the F-4EJ, all equipment was removed, and no functions were added even in EJ Kai.
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