Jump to content

Autocannone 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro


Taffu92
 Share

Autocannone 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro  

166 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see the Autocannone 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro in game?

    • Yes
      163
    • No (please explain why in the comments)
      3
  2. 2. Which Br would you like to see it?

    • 3.7
      99
    • 4.0
      50
    • 4.3
      14
    • I said no
      3


Hi everyone,

I would like to suggest you the Cannone 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro, the first autocannone that mounted the 90/53 cannon as an anti-tank weapon.

 

BRIEF HISTORY:

Spoiler

Adopted from the Regia Marina by the army, the 90/53 cannon was already in service in the Regio Esercito since 1939,but it was used only as an AA piece, wasting most of its potential.

Only in 1941 two parallel project were started to mount the 90/53 cannon on a mobile chassis ( the Lancia 3Ro and the Breda 52) to use it as a multi-role weapon.

 

The first one to be completed was the 90/53 on Lancia 3Ro and 30 units were ordered.

Few months later the 90/53 on Breda 52 came to life and the army ordered 70 initial units of said machine.

 

Despite being not exceptionally suited for the North African scenario, due to its dimensions and the difficulty to hide it in the desert plains, the machine took part in numerous battles showing impressive results, but at the cost of several losses due to dive bombers.

 

By the end of 1942 the remaining working machines were adopted in both the “Centauro” and the “Ariete” division and served in both Libya and Tunisia.

By the end of the war the remaining 90/53 pieces defended until the end the last territories of Tunisia and Sicily together with the surviving autocannoni 76/30 of the MILMART.

 

As a side note, right before the armistice, the effectiveness of the 90/53 piece diminished considerably, this was due to the fall of the already weak Italian production line, now target of the constant bombing raids of the Americans, that pushed out defective shells, usually unable to detonate after impact.

 

ENGINE AND CHASSIS:

For this Autocannone the Italians choose the reliable chassis of the Lancia 3Ro. ( A parallel project on Breda 52 was pushed and came to life just a few months after the one on Lancia 3Ro)

 

While the chassis itself was quite stressed because of the weight of the gun apparatus, the engine itself, a mod 102 with 93Hp at 1860 rpm, never suffered and, instead, always performed quite well thanks to its high number of gears ( 8 forward, 2 reverse).[1]

 

One of the biggest problems of the machine was the high center of gravity due to the position of the gun and the central stabilizer legs while retracted.

 

This was also noted in the Arberdeen proving grounds (Maryland) by the American soldiers that tested there one of captured autocannoni on Lancia 3Ro.

They noted that, while moving using the “travel” configuration, the machine tended to wobble a lot on uneven terrains and even tip over if they tried to turn while driving at moderate speeds on non-paved roads.[1]

 

What the Americans didn’t know is that the Italians, to counter this problem and speed up the process of deployment of the machine, used to travel in a sort of hybrid-mode while moving on uneven terrain or near the battlefield, lowering the central legs and the side panels.

This lowered the center of mass, stabilizing the machine, and also enabled the vehicle, in emergency situations, to fire the gun, using the already lowered legs to stop the effects of the recoil of the gun.[2]

 

The second biggest problem was the overall height of the machine, this made the vehicle difficult to hide in the vast plans of the desert, making it easy prey of enemy dive bombers.

 

In this video from “Archivio Luce” you can see, right at the beginning, the hybrid-mode that the Italian used to move on uneven terrains and quickly deploy the machine.

You can also see the traverse and elevation speed of the gun and how the crew operated it (from the beginning to 1:08):

https://patrimonio.archivioluce.com/luce-web/detail/IL5000017057/2/momenti-della-dura-battaglia-marmarica.html?startPage=0

 

CREW:

The crew was composed of eight people total, a driver, a commander, a gunner and 3 loaders and 2 specialists (for AA fire).

While not engaged in AA role, the two specialists (whose role was to help set the correct time fuse on the AA shells) helped the loaders and the gunner if needed.

Here you can see the ones operating the gun:

Spoiler

 

This huge amount of loaders enabled the 90/53 cannon to reach a rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute (4s reload), some sources even states that the gun could reach a rate of fire of 20 rounds per minute in case of emergency (this ended although with the destruction of the gun).

 

To reach this rate of fire usually one or two loaders, while the machine was prepared, unloaded the rounds contained in the reserve behind the cabin on the ground, in an ordinate manner.

This, coupled with the good training of the crew, allowed the gun to have another round ready to be fired in the shortest time.

Here you can see how they prepared the ammunition (this won’t be possible to replicate in game, so we’ll only have a good reload speed):

Spoiler

3RO_messa_in_batteria.JPG.0e00f33ff3e547

RE_NA_Autocannone_da_90_56_su_Lancia_3Ro

 

In this drawing (the top part) you can see how the crew positioned itself during combat.

As the legend for the numbers is in italian (and also a bit blurry) I'll add an english translation right below:

Spoiler

serventi.thumb.JPG.43eb050f41fb71529f0af

 

Number's legend:

1) Horizontal Gunner

2) Elevation Gunner

3) Gunner's helper (1st Specialist)

4) Loader

5) Time-fuse Specialist (2nd Specialist)

6) Ammo carrier (Loader)

 

-7 and 8 are ammo carriers that stationed on the following Lancia 3Ro modified to carry additional ammo

-the "Capo Pezzo" that you can read is the Commander, the "Conduttore" is the Driver

-Helpers and specialists helped speed-up the loading process when needed

 


ARMAMENT AND AMMO:

You should be quite familiar with this gun by now, as it is the same that it’s mounted on the semovente 90/53 su M41.

The main difference between the one on the semovente and this one is its elevation angle, that goes from -2° to +85°, as it was both used as an anti-tank and an anti-air platform.

The gun was able to fire four types of shells, three of them are the same as the ones on the semovente da 90/53, the last one is a time fuse HE, here I’ll made a quick summary:

 

-Granata perforante da 90: 12.1 Kg, 520g of explosive mass, 758 m/s initial speed

-Granata perforante mod.43: 11.1 Kg, 180g of explosive mass, 773 m/s initial speed

-Granata da 90 (HE): 10.1Kg, 1000g of explosive mass, 850 m/s initial speed

-Granata da 90 C.A.: 10.1Kg, 1000g of explosive mass, 850 m/s initial speed, time fuse [3]

 

The gun could freely traverse 360°, but the elevation angle was limited from 0° to +85° on the frontal part due to the presence of the cabin, otherwise the gun could elevate from -2° to +85°:

Spoiler

 

The ammo storage on the autocannoni 90/53 (both on Lancia 3Ro and Breda 51) was a bit more complex.

On the machine were stored 30 rounds:

 

-26 on the metal box behind the cabin (unknown disposition)

-4 in the ready-rack right behind the gun shield (you can notice it as the angled box attached to the gun shield):

Spoiler

1861622078_readyrack.JPG.1ea6a8c9ea04aa1

 

To further increase the ammunition count the autocannone was usually followed by a technical Lancia 3Ro converted as ammo carrier, with 210 rounds stored in 4 large metal boxes on its truck bed or, if this wasn’t possible, the truck could attach a small trailer containing additional 96 rounds.

 

 

PROTECTION:

This time, unlike most of the autocannoni, the machine offered some sort of protection to the crew, in the form of a 12mm gun shield.

This shield came with two options:

 

-the top part was foldable, this allowed it to also be angled to provide some sort of cover against enemy fighters.

-a small panel on the right of the shield could be raised to provide a clear view while aiming the gun:

Spoiler

63fa03e5-a579-462f-8506-50fa385b1968.jpg

 

STAT CARD:

Spoiler

1790878337_Specifiche90-533Ro.thumb.jpg.

 

 

ILLUSTRATION:

Spoiler

 

 

IN WAR THUNDER:

Like most of the “autocannone” family the vehicle boosts a large number of crewmembers and a quite powerful gun at the expense of any kind of protection (except for the gun shield this time).

If we couple this with a mediocre speed off-road and an incredible 4s reload I can see this machine be around 3.7 - 4.3 Br.

 

Even one of its major flaws, its overall big dimensions, can be concealed in most of the maps that we have in game.

 

Another plus that this machine can have in game is that, having its ammo storage behind the cabin, this vehicle can be used for ambush, peeking with the rear end, only showing the gun and the back side of the truck, protecting most of its important parts.

 

Also, if added in its hybrid form that the Italians used to travel off-road and balance it, it could be used as it was in real life, without the need to be deployed in emergency situation, but, at the expense of a bigger effect of the recoil of the gun on the chassis.

 

NOTES:

[1] Nicola Pignato, Filippo Cappellano “Gli autoveicoli da combattimento dell’esercito italiano” vol II page 868-872

[2] Filippo Cappellano, Nicola Pignato “Andare contro i carri armati” page 117

[3] Italian and French explosive ordinance page 93

 

SOURCES:

 Nicola Pignato, Filippo Cappellano "Gli autoveicoli da combattimento dell'esercito italiano" Vol II

Nicola Pignato "A century of italian armored cars"

Ralph Riccio "Italian tanks and combat vehicles of world war II"

Filippo Cappellano, Nicola Pignato "Andare contro i carri armati"

Raplh Riccio, Nicola Pignato "Italian truck mounted artillery in action"

Archivio Luce

Italian and French explosive ordinance: https://bulletpicker.com/ordnance-pamphlets.html

https://www.o5m6.de/wehrmacht/re_na_autocannone.php#90/56

https://issuu.com/rivista.militare1/docs/studi_su_rassegna_esercito-testo

 

Personal note:

This was a pain to research, as there’s a lot of “history” on this machine, while “useful data” were scattered all over the place. I will still look for more info on this vehicle and will update this post if necessary.

Edited by Taffu92
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 14
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Senior Suggestion Moderator

Open for discussion. :salute:

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this thing is too iconic for Italian forces (to me anyway) to not have      +1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also I would like the the stabilizer legs to have a mechanic. perhapsactivating adds stability, and removes hull break, but makes the vehicle immobile and inactivated the vehicle rocks heavily when firing the gun?

 

"The ammunition storage on the machine consisted in 20 rounds, stored in a metal box positioned right behind the cabin and stored in 4 horizontal rows of five rounds each.

To further increase the ammunition count the autocannone was usually followed by a technical Lancia 3Ro converted as ammo carrier, with 210 rounds stored in 4 large metal boxes on its truck bed or, if this wasn’t possible, the truck could attach a small trailer containing additional 96 rounds."

--I would also have also have the 96 round trailer as a re-searchable upgrade

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Major_K0enig said:

I would also have also have the 96 round trailer as a re-searchable upgrade

 

@_Condottiero_ proposed something similar with the L6 as an ammo carrier and its 40 rounds trailer, which I hope to see in game as it would open a lot of different mechanics (at least the 40 round trailer if the L6 is too much).

 

This also made me notice that I didn't add the image of the 96 rounds carrier for some reasons:facepalm::D

I'll add it here ( as a notice, this one can go off like a bomb if detonated, no way to survive for both you and everyone in its near proximity, be it an ally or an enemy):

587241044_portamunizioniper90mm.thumb.JP

  • Like 2
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is something that I couldn't find, as it is only mentioned sometimes as a way to further increase the ammunition storage of the autocannoni 90/53.

The photo that I found doesn't help either (it only shows that it can be opened from both sides and a bit of the door's thickness), but I will keep my eyes open.

Edited by Taffu92
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

As promised I bring new updates on the Autocannone 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro after reading Filippo Cappellano's " "Batterie Volanti" autocannoni e artiglierie portate italiane".

 

1) AMMO STORAGE:

 

After reading a brief passage at page 121 I noticed that my previous sentence:

On 06/02/2020 at 11:31, Taffu92 said:

The ammunition storage on the machine consisted in 20 rounds, stored in a metal box positioned right behind the cabin and stored in 4 horizontal rows of five rounds each.

Is completely wrong.

 

The ammo storage on the autocannoni 90/53 (both on Lancia 3Ro and Breda 51) was a bit more complex.

On the machine were stored 30 rounds:

 

-26 on the metal box behind the cabin (unknown disposition)

-4 in the ready-rack right behind the gun shield (you can notice it as the angled box attached to the gun shield):

Spoiler

314293402_readyrack.JPG.be45920024feb63d

 

This also explained how they were able to fire the gun without removing all the additional stuff on top of the main ammo rack in case of emergency.

 

2)CREW POSITIONING:

 

In this drawing (the top part) you can see how the crew positioned itself during combat.

As the legend for the numbers is in italian (and also a bit blurry) I'll add an english translation right below:

Spoiler

serventi.thumb.JPG.39b907c28cec6c5afc109

 

Number's legeng:

1) Horizontal Gunner

2) Elevation Gunner

3) Gunner's helper (1st specialist)

4) Loader

5) Time-fuse Specialist (2nd Specialist)

6) Ammo carrier (Loader)

 

-7 and 8 are ammo carriers that stationed on the following Lancia 3Ro modified to carry additional ammo.

-the "Capo pezzo" that you can read is the Commander, the "Conduttore" instead is the Driver

-Helpers and specialists helped speed-up the loading process when needed

 

3)BONUS:

 

The gun used some sort of electromechanical device to automatically set the time-fuse for the AA rounds, unfortunately I could not find any information on how this device worked:

Spoiler

contraerei.JPG.c66ff3fefd866e101420a5681

Maybe someone in comments already knows it?

I'll make sure to update the main post as soon as possible.

Edited by Taffu92
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Senior Forum Moderator

This vehicle it's not so easy to be introduced due the huge anchorage stabilizers in the sides (as for the Breda52).

 

The time fuze setting can be seen in this video:

1:48sec

 

The shell is inserit in the timer setting that rotates the timer fuze/pressure fuze on the tip with the settings given by the telemeter station.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

This vehicle it's not so easy to be introduced due the huge anchorage stabilizers in the sides (as for the Breda52).

 

Indeed, both the Autocannoni 90/53 are quite big machines , almost 4.4m wide when traveling in their hybrid-deployed mode (and you can' make them magically ethereal), and so they'll force the player to use a more second-line approach, avoiding the narrower paths of the map.

 

Still, as a second spawn or a clean-up machine, I think they can have both their role in game.

 

 

3 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

 

So that's how they used this one:

Spoiler

radar.thumb.JPG.9a2f31a8246ccd1e5b302dea

 

I always tought that it would be such a huge mess trying to rely the position data from the machine to the actual batteries with a simple megaphone, especially during the fire barrage that those cannons were able to provide.

 

That video made it simpler, they just needed to cranck the machine on the Autocannone active and it was able to receive the data and set the correct fuse (or at least the best appoximation).

 

Still, this means that the machine used, even if in some arcaic form, the help of an external radar to automatically set its time-fuse shells, which is quite a hot topic, even for more modern machine in other posts, that are not even able to aim without an external help.

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another update for the ammunition storage.

 

The ammo box behind the cabin is a modified version of the ones on the Lancia 3Ro "ammo carrier", capable of holding six rounds of 90mm in each column, didived by a wooden separator.

In the ammo box on the 90/53 su Lancia 3Ro the rounds were stored in 5 columns of 6 rounds each (hence the 30 rounds total), then four of them were taken and stored in the ready-rack behind the gun shield.

Here you can see the Lancia 3Ro ammo carrier:

Spoiler

munizze.thumb.JPG.246523f9808c4199af4f04

 

 

For the ammo carrier that I posted before:

I found the entire photo set and, after a small read, I found out that I made a big mistake.

That ammo carrier is not the 96 round carrier for the Lancia 3Ro, but the 43 round carrier for the Breda 52, coated with 10mm of armor, which was not able to be carried by the Lancia 3Ro:

Spoiler

carriola1.thumb.JPG.6a07c279f8a7de541ff7carriola2.thumb.JPG.e41250478a11859a6a09

 

 

I think this this will be the last update for a while, as the machine is basically complete.

The only problem for its implementation, like @BlueBeta previously said, is what they will do for its massive central stabilizing legs, that makes it quite a huge machine when deployed.

 

-Will they make them "ethereal" like the side panels of the VFW when open?

-Will they remove them, for gameplay reasons?

-Will they make them "solid", forcing players to adopt a more "second-line" play-style?

 

Peronally I don't know, as a fan of the Autocannoni family I would like to see it in game, maybe they'll chose the option that is more user-friendly or easier to code.

medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 10 months later...
  • 1 month later...
4 hours ago, _Condottiero_ said:

 

 

Nice, this specify a bit better the clearance of the vehicle and its lenght.

Everything else confirm what I've already found in other books.

 

Only note, in the image that you found it says that max speed is 41Km/h using its 4th gear, but in the page right above it states that the machine have 8 gears forward.

Both are correct, as the machine had 4 main gears forward and other 4 "half" gears in between them to keep the maximum torque of the engine in every condition.

This made the Lancia RO an incredibly versatile truck, able to cross almost every terrain without problems.

 

I'll update the chart on the main post, as I noticed it's a bit old and still has the wrong info about the number of rounds and other little things.

 

Thanks again for your finding:good:

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 5 months later...
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...