tech tree Visegrad Group - Ground tech tree

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion:

75 mm self-propelled gun PF621L

-anti-aircraft gun.

-The 75 mm wz.18 / 24 gun was placed on the PF 621L truck. A special, steel body with an open driver's cabin and a rotating gun platform mounted on the frame.

-Chassis equipped with armored engine covers!

-Used in combat in defense of Poland 1939.

-Used against German planes and ... tanks!

-On September 15-20, the battery of these vehicles near Chełmno, recording its greatest successes in the September campaign, then 4 tanks (!) And two Ju-86 and He-46 planes are destroyed.

-A group of these vehicles took part in the second battle near Tomaszów Lubelski, where it was used as an anti-tank unit assigned to the 13th Infantry Brigade. During the battle, the vehicles achieved great success in the form of two shot down He-111s and four destroyed and damaged German tanks!

Maximum speed - 50 km / h
Horizontal range - 11,000 m
Theoretical range, vertical - 5 500 m
Vertical effective range - 4,000 m
Vertical firing angle: -5o to 70o
Horizontal angle of fire: 240o
Rate of fire -15 rounds / min

[Miltaccfd 240]

Spoiler

3 hours ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

Suggestion:

75 mm self-propelled gun PF621L

-anti-aircraft gun.

-The 75 mm wz.18 / 24 gun was placed on the PF 621L truck. A special, steel body with an open driver's cabin and a rotating gun platform mounted on the frame.

-Chassis equipped with armored engine covers!

-Used in combat in defense of Poland 1939.

-Used against German planes and ... tanks!

-On September 15-20, the battery of these vehicles near Chełmno, recording its greatest successes in the September campaign, then 4 tanks (!) And two Ju-86 and He-46 planes are destroyed.

-A group of these vehicles took part in the second battle near Tomaszów Lubelski, where it was used as an anti-tank unit assigned to the 13th Infantry Brigade. During the battle, the vehicles achieved great success in the form of two shot down He-111s and four destroyed and damaged German tanks!

Maximum speed - 50 km / h
Horizontal range - 11,000 m
Theoretical range, vertical - 5 500 m
Vertical effective range - 4,000 m
Vertical firing angle: -5o to 70o
Horizontal angle of fire: 240o
Rate of fire -15 rounds / min

 

 

My problem was with this vehicle that I couldt find the ammo count, and I read that it was fired with loaders behind the vehicle on the ground. (As you can see the breech is quite far back on the truck)
The main problem was the ammo... Ammo was carried for them on different vehicles/trailers, in boxes, and later carried to the firing position. The only possible way probably this vehicle can work itself is that maybe, but only maybe the box under the gunner(?) on the picture is an ammo box. But even that is 4 rounds at max.

If you can find where it carried the ammo, if carried any, share me please. A vehicle without ammo is a target practice.

If there is ammo, even then there are some problem, like it cant really shoot forward if the driver is in place (the gun is in the height of the drivers chest, it has to be elevated over his head to traverse), the loader should sit in front of the gun in its transport position (as he cant be behind the vehicle on the ground..., and actually he limits the gun elevation, too, like driver), etc. This was meant to be in a firing position, with loaders behind, without the driver in place, windscreen folded, ammo carried for them. Thats why it was not suggested this time.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Miltaccfd

[Miltaccfd 240]

Actually the T-72M1R is not a bad idea, could be a modification of the regular T-72M1

Dana... Aaam... There are a lot of Dana, Zuzana, Himalaya and Ondava variants exists, they are very similar, so im sure not all will be ingame. In this tree the the suggested variants might need some override. But these are still arties and there is a chance they wont be even implemented.

Rak is a mortar carrier, I dont think it has good enough AT armament.

About the Polish Vickers Mk E: If I remember well, we couldnt find penetration and ammo datas for its gun. In a Chinese suggestion on the forum there are some ammo data, from which we calculated that it would have 38 mm penetration. Thats not much, even for a reserve and without HE filler. Without fast reload speed. This combined with the poor armor and quite bad mobility makes this tank worse than any reverse now ingame. The rank I is already full, almost overfilled, so it doesnt makes sense to add a tank painful to play with.

Same for Taczanka, its around 4 times worse AA than the GAZ 4M, which is 1.0, so I looked for something better, and now the first SPAA is a Hungarian Opel Blitz with an experimental AA mount. It has two 8 mm wing machine guns with insane fire rate, overall more than the GAZ 4M, so its good enough for 1.0 Only one MG for AA purposes is not enough.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Miltaccfd

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

I will try to look for information on the 75 mm self-propelled gun PF621L related to ammunition and use.

As for the Polish Vickers tanks Armor penetration - 25 mm at 500 m at an angle of 90 ° or 16 mm at 1200 m at an angle of 60 °. According to other publications: 34 mm at 300 m and 23 mm at 500 m at an angle of 90 °. The practical rate of fire was up to 10 rounds / min. Scope sight on the left side of the gun. Anti-tank missile range it was 5,600 meters in terrain, but according to Polish tests, the gun was capable of fighting armored targets only up to a distance of 1,000 meters, due to the large spread and weak sights. The range of the crushing shell was up to 3,500 m. The ammunition consisted of high-explosive (APHE) and fragmentation (HE) anti-tank missiles.

Based on the book: Michał Kuchciak: Vickers 6-Ton light tank in the Polish Army in 1931-1939, Oświęcim 2018

The fact is not much, but the destruction of Panzer I and II tanks and armored cars by the Vickers is known.

The idea for Taczanka was a bad idea

Rak is no mortar carrier! These are self-propelled tower mortar - a new class of armament in NATO! - basically there are no general allied standards for ammunition construction, as in the case of 155 mm howitzers! The M120 Rak mortar is a unique development of the Polish industry, innovative in terms of design and technology.

The Rak mortar designed the gun so that the maximum pressure in the barrel could reach 216 MPa (during the tests, the barrel was tested even at 250 MPa), which would allow the muzzle velocity of the grenades to exceed 500 m / s. These are supersonic speeds (approx. 1.5 Ma), unattainable for the previous generation grenades, unable to overcome complex aerodynamic phenomena during flight (eg wave crisis). Research on new ammunition is ongoing

The new missile in the photo HE, loaded with TNT (TNT), weighs 19.2 kg with a throwing charge and reaches a grenade velocity of 510 m / s with a range exceeding 10,000. m.

[Miltaccfd 240]

Oh yeah, I remember now, the Polish Vickers had APHE (Chinese sources didnt said that there was a HE filler in the round), but the approx. 38 mm pen is still stands. It looks realistic, if tests says 34 mm at 300 m (But actually 23 mm at 500 m is a huge drop on that 200 m in between, so I dont really know what to think...)
The Vickers is still a tank from the 1930s and I dont think it will work well against tanks like Pz II (a small angle or distance over 3-400 m and Vickers cant pen it, but the Vickers armor is too weak to stand a chance against that 20 mil), Stuarts, BT-5/7s and so on. Anything on the battlefield is more agile than this thing, if not, it cant be penned by this gun (almost all frenchbois for example).
Overall, its like a T-26 with the same weak armor, same quite bad mobility, but with half of the penetration, which is painfully less, comparable to SA18.
I suggested the TKD, its more mobile, smaller target, almost the same pen it has, but it had much better reloading speed. Even that thing will be a painful one if it will be ever added.

Okay, then, Rak is not a "mortar carrier", its a self propelled artillery, but it is armed with a breech loaded mortar, and that mortar fires only HE. I didnt searched for ammo datas, but these 120 mm HE mortar bombs carries up to 4,2 kg explosive mass and if we are optimistic, we can count with 5 kg TNT equivalent. This time the round has less penetrating power of a 125 mm russian HE. Thats means it has 41 mm penetration. You said 510 m/s, I say the SU-122 in in 2.7 with a 122 mm HE round with 515 m/s velocity and 3,67 kg TNT, pens 37 mm. And it has a HEAT, too. Rosomak Rak is not a modern BR material, because it has the penetration of a rank II vehicle. If it will get a HEAT with 3-400 mm penetration, ill say yes for a BR of 7.3-7.7. Until that I wont add it.
Rak is innovative, a good design, I personally like it, but not (yet?) in AT role, in a tank game. I wont force a Rosomak into smaller BRs either, like 4.7...

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

 

Generally speaking, Polish Vickers Mk E is troublesome and actually hard to put it somewhere. It's not exactly a bad tank, nor is it worse.

TKD is a good idea and would be more fun.

I have suggestions:

PZInż 9TP or 7TP wz.39

- Three prototypes were created - Germany, after taking Warsaw, probably could take over both prototypes or they could have been hidden / destroyed by Ursus employees. Same as with 14TP. The photos show that at least some of the PZInż prototypes remained in Ursus (see the known photo of PZInż 130). The third prototype of the 7TP BBT Br Panc (comparative) could be evacuated and served as a self-propelled spare parts warehouse (Cannibalization) for the Polish army to repair the 7TP.

- Fragments of documentation are preserved.

-None of the 7TP prototypes reinforced, 7TP wz.39 took part in the defense of Poland in 1939, but ...

People claiming that the reinforced 7TP or the 7TP wz.39 were used in combat, refer to two publications:
- A. Jońca, J. Szubański, R. Tarczyński: September 1939. Vehicles of the Polish Army. Color and Arms., Warsaw: Wydawnictwa Komunikacji i Łączności, 1990, pp. 32, 52-58,
- A. Wszendyrówny, M. Wodejko: Czołg 7TP in the documents of the Central Military Archives, in: "Do Broni", No. 1/2009, p. 96.

Sketch comparison:
- blue color - Reinforced version 7TP, according to BBT Br Panc presented on April 20, 1939.
- red color - Version 7TP model 39, according to Biuro Studiów PZInż (E. Habich) presented on April 5, 1939.

Reinforced version of the 7TP, according to BBT Br Panc, presented on April 20, 1939.
Characteristics:
- welded armor, 8-30 mm thick, evenly distributed, the weight of the serial 7TP car, i.e. ~ 9,858 kg with the service, the hull side is made of two plates,
- the original suspension system for the 7TP,
- elimination of the difference in axle loads up to 68 kg compared to 785 kg in the standard 7TP,
- ultimately, the PZINż 725 carburetor (gasoline) engine with a capacity of 95-100 HP (maximum about 105 HP), weight 370 kg, requires one cooler. A standard Saurer VBLDb 850 kg + two coolers was used.
- mounting the power unit on the side of the fuselage, behind the driver's back. The engine is not mass-produced yet,
- changing the cardan shaft (without joints) and moving it to the side of the car; elimination of obstacles hindering the work of the crew inside the car,
- standard gearbox (aluminum crater),
- lowering the car's silhouette (smaller engine) by 130 mm to 1988 mm,
- favorable silhouette (oblique front plate, different rear design, etc.),
- more space inside the car and increased comfort of the crew,
- two WZ 34 periscopes (commander + driver),
- a thicker layer of rubber on the rollers,
- planned speed 32-34 km / h,
- removal of all air circulation shutters, introduction of a solution similar to the "Skoda" / "Koblen Danek" tanks

Version 7TP model 39, according to the PZInż Studies Office (E. Habich) presented on April 5, 1939.
Characteristics:
- lower armor welded, 5-40 mm thick, uneven distribution of plate thickness - 40 mm front, sides 25.20.13 mm, front of the turret 40 mm, sides and rear of the turret 20 mm, rear and top armor unchanged compared to the original 7TP ,
- PZInż 155 / CT1D engine produced under license in PZInż from the beginning of 1938,
- gearbox from the C7P tractor (aluminum crater),
- increase in weight of the truck to approx. 11 t (increase by approx. 729 kg to the standard 7TP, other data approx. 800 kg)
- change in suspension, tracks 320 mm wide (standard 267 mm)
- a slight change in the silhouette of the car,
- rubber rollers,
- significantly increased pressure on the front bogies,
- the increase in weight may cause problems with engine cooling (in the standard 7TP the maximum work of the coolers was achieved),
- speed 26.6 km / h on the road and 11.5 km / h in the field (tests in Kampinos).

[Miltaccfd 240]

There is a mess on the net about the "9TP". It was not 9TP actually. Nor 7TP wz. 39. It had no official name, 9TP was given by a historian in the 90s, 7TP wz. 39 is maybe a designation from Wargaming... Usually referred as 7TP wzmocniony (7TP reinforced).
Im not an expert, but I think the sources which mention that the 7TP reinforced was used in combat are wrong. It looks like for me they are identify the 7TP jw. "late" variant as a reinforced one. This "late" variant had a better cooling system and rear hull grids were changed to armor plates, so differed from the normal 7TP.

Without visual information (images) its hard to convince Gaijin, only statements exists that these were used. Prototypes were tested tho, and we have the test results, and some part of the documentation.
I mentioned in the suggestion, too, without visual sources (images, videos, maybe blueprints - fullish, not sketches) modelling work is hard, so I wont include anything here without a good enough visual source.
BBT Br Panc's proto is a no-go, because we doesnt know how the tracks looked like for example, but this isnt the only problem.
Habich's design might can be modeled tho, but there are still some missing info and quesses...
Ive spoken with some polish guy, and some said there is a lot of missing info and another 1.0 isnt needed, if there are problems with it. The others said I shouldnt give up on this vehicle, you are clearly a member of this group. I think I can add this vehicle to the suggestion in the future (next week maybe, with the other changes), but only as a possibility or a premium, but its hard to find a good place for it, because I cant cross the folder numbers per rank...

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion:

 PT-72U - a tank for city combat / Afghanistan military missions

The engineers from Łabęd focused on improving the shortcomings of the T-72 family tank structure, such as the low elevation angle of the main armament, high exposure of the forehead commander operating the AAA, poor situational awareness caused by outdated means of omnidirectional observation, or poor side and rear armor resistance to fire light anti-tank weapons such as RPG-7 grenade launchers.

The most visible element of the retrofitted tank are openwork screens protecting all surfaces of the tank not covered with reactive armor, such as the sides and rear of the hull and turret. The screens are placed at a distance of 500 - 700 mm from the main armor to allow effective dispersion of the cumulative stream. The armor was developed by the Bumar-Łabędy plant in cooperation with the Department of Mechanics and Applied Computer Science of the Military University of Technology. This seemingly insignificant and not very technically advanced element may be essential for the survival of the tank during city fights. The situation can be illustrated by the destruction of one of the Georgian T-72 tanks during the assault on Tskhinvali on August 8, 2008. A cumulative shell fired from a hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher hit the middle part of the rear turret armor, the cumulative stream penetrated relatively thin armor at this point and hit the feeder 125-mm cannon shell of the tank, which led to its explosion and the ejection of the turret. If the Georgian tank had a solution similar to the openwork armor from the PT-72U package, the effects of such a hit would not be so tragic. The usefulness of this solution is even greater as the increase in the weight of the forehead is minimal - the armor kit weighs only 420 kg (170 kg for the turret and 250 kg for the hull).

One of the main threats of asymmetric conflicts are mines-traps. Engineers from Łabędy and the Military University of Technology have increased the level of protection offered by the tank against this threat as well. For this purpose, the driver will receive a seat suspended from the roof of the car, and the front part of the fuselage will receive an Energy-Consuming Bottom Panel made of composites.

Another visible element is the replacement of the 12.7 mm caliber GRM plotter, operated manually by the commander, with the ZSMU-127 Kobuz remote-controlled weapon module manufactured by ZM Tarnów. The module is completely autonomous from the tank's SKO and has its own set of observation and sighting devices. The range of fire in azimuth is 360o, and in elevation from -5o to + 55o (it should be remembered that the analogous parameter for the armament of the main T-72 tank is only -5.5o to + 14o). The use of the module increases the tank's ability to damage targets, which can be critical during operations in the city.

The system is complemented by the ODR-HV ODF Optronics omnidirectional observation system. The system includes a set of 8 daytime television cameras ensuring full 360o coverage (the system supports up to 24 cameras) and a rotating ODR PTZ head with a thermal imaging camera, a central unit and a touch control panel. The rotating head has a range of movement of 360o in azimuth and -10o to + 70o in elevation, and it can be used up to 26x optical zoom. During a standstill, the system can detect movement and, optionally, automatically direct the traffic towards a potential hazard. The ODR PTZ device was mounted in the front part of the tank, between the hatches of the commander and the gunner, while the TV cameras of the ODR-HV system were installed on the OBRA-3 system sensors, on the turret of the tank (3 cameras on the left side of the turret, 2 on the right and 3 on the rear, on the basket ).

The above-mentioned systems are complemented by an element not strictly related to asymmetric operations, but significantly increasing the ease of use and economy of the vehicle, i.e. the auxiliary power unit (APU). The APU was already used in the PT-91M tanks intended for Malaysia. The 17 kW unit was developed in cooperation with ESW-Jenoptik GmbH on the basis of a Perkins diesel engine. In addition to powering the car's on-board installations, the unit can also supply the air conditioning system when parked (unlike the tanks for Malaysia, the air conditioning compressor system has been changed from mechanical to electric, making it possible to supply the air conditioning from any source, not only from the aggregate). Interestingly, the installation of the air conditioning system made it necessary to reduce the second-throw fire unit by just one projectile with the expelling charge. Certainly, this should not be a big problem, especially since the experience of conflicts in Chechnya and Georgia shows that during operations in the city, the fire unit should only be used with the first-throw ammunition in the loader.

 

The communication system has also been upgraded, the modern Radmor RRC9310AP radio station, the Fonet-IP intercom system and the Trop battlefield management system have been installed. The Fonet system is equipped with an external high-power sound system and an external connection for an intercom system.

Other changes include a new voltage stabilizer from PRM-02 from Radiotechnika-Marketing, a new microprocessor starting device for the main engine, an electronic dashboard with memory replacing the driver's board, a modernized automatic charging control system (e.g. it is possible to turn the automatic unit in both directions, which shortens the charging time). The driver's panel and the modernization of the charging automat were developed in cooperation with Wasko.

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion:

WWO Wilk XC-8 120HP prototype

The prototype of the car was built and tested in 2012. After passing the tests, it was offered to the Polish Armed Forces, but despite its excellent results, it did not arouse interest. The introduction of another caliber to the Polish Army (apart from the 120 mm Leopard 2 and T-72 125 mm) was not an option that was considered.

Undeterred Wojskowe Zakłady Motoryzacyjne continued negotiations with CMI Defensce, which resulted in the development of the Rosomak hull, equipped with the Cockerill XC-8 turret.

Unlike the previous turret, a larger gun can be mounted on the XC-8: a Cockerill high-pressure gun with an automatically loaded rifled L / 50 barrel, firing standard NATO 120mm ammunition. Adapting the 120 mm caliber to the Rosomak chassis solved the problem of the logistical needs of the Polish Army and resulted in the failure of the original Wilk. The 105mm XC-8 turret variant also exists, but is not considered for the above-mentioned reasons.

The low weight of the XC-8 turret allows the Rosomak to remain mobile, while the 120mm gun can engage any target on the battlefield, including modern Main Battle Tanks. In addition to standard NATO ammunition, potential buyers can order a Cockerpill variant of the 120mm Falarick missile, which, like its 105mm relative, is capable of penetrating modern armor from a distance of approximately 5 kilometers.

The tower is two-person. The gun has an elevation of +20 degrees (the gun has lost the ability of indirect fire, characteristic of the CT-CV turret), and depression is -10 degrees. Similarly to the CV-CV turret, also in the case of the XC-8, the ballistic protection level can be increased to a maximum of level 5 according to STANAG 4569.

The Wilk prototype with the XC-8 turret was shown to the public in 2015 during the MSPO fair in Kielce, and again in 2016. The vehicle was offered to the Polish Army, but so far (October 2016) no final decision has been made to accept it or not, and there is no place for it in the structure of the Polish Armed Forces. The Polish Army is currently considering several fire support vehicles (including the reactivated Anders platform and WWB Gepard), which puts the future of WWO Wilk in question.

 

 

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

Suggestion:

Self-propelled guns - T-3 (75mm) - Stug 40 Ausf G and T-38 (75mm) - Hetzer official names used vehicles from 1945-1948? 5th self-propelled artillery squadron of the 6th Infantry Division used by the Polish Army. After the war, it was used to train new crews.

Quantity

3 - T-3 (75mm)

3- T-38 (75mm)

[Miltaccfd 240]

PT-72U is a good choice for an independent Polish tree, but this is Visegrad Group, and here all 4 nation has to be represented. Around 9.7-10.7 there are several MBTs from V4 nations, two variants of T-72M2 Moderna, T-72M3CZ, T-72M4CZ, a number of PT-91s (basic, A, MA, M2, etc), T-72M2/AV, the T-72 Scarab if it wont get a new round, Leopard 2A4, 2A5 and 2PL. And here another one, the PT-72, which is an almost-Twardy. This tank is not included, because I see the PT-91s and Leo 2PL as better choices to represent Poland. Maybe in the future, when there will be rank VII premiums we can add it with the PT-91M and the ones that arent in the researchable tree.

When I made this tree the Centauro MGS wasnt ingame, actually, there was only one or maybe two tanks were rank VII per nation. Then I didnt wanted to add a Rosomak with a 120 mm gun. I didnt wanted to outstrip the game. Now there is something similar ingame, so yeah, I will add this, too, soon It was already in my plans.

[Miltaccfd 240]

46 minutes ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

Self-propelled guns - T-3 (75mm) - Stug 40 Ausf G and T-38 (75mm) - Hetzer

There are already a Hetzer (ST-I) and a Stug III G in the tree, so there is nothing to prevent Polish camos to be added for them

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

I forgot to look at tech tree and T-3 (75mm) - Stug 40 Ausf G and T-38 (75mm) - Hetzer as a camouflage is a good idea

Suggestion:

Prototype armored amphibious vehicle  - AMZ Kutno Bóbr-3 (ATGM)

The Tank Destroyer from Kutno was created on the basis of the Bóbr-3 armored amphibious vehicle presented at last year's MSPO fair, which was created as a proposal in the Kleszcz Light Armored Reconnaissance Transporter (LOTR) program for the Polish Army as a successor to the BRDM-2 cars. The qualification tests of the LOTR prototype based on the Bobra-3 are currently underway. The vehicle is equipped with a KenBIT SOL-2 laser beam warning system.

In the variant presented at this year's MSPO, the vehicle was equipped with a Rafael ADS Spike dual anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) launcher. According to the exhibitor's information, the launcher can be integrated with any weapon system of this class, as indicated by the Armament Inspectorate of the Ministry of National Defense. Nevertheless, the Ministry of Defense requires a tracked chassis of a tank destroyer, which is why the counter-proposals of the Polish Armaments Group seem to be closer to the requirements of the administrator.

The Bóbr-3 wheeled tank destroyer is equipped with a 7,200 cm3, 240 kW, 6-cylinder diesel engine, automatic gearbox, all-wheel drive and independent suspension. The vehicle is 6.9 m long, 2.38 m high and 2.5 m wide. The ground clearance is 400 mm, the weight ranges from 12 to 14 t (depending on the armor version, the permissible total weight is 16 t), and the range is 600 km. In the basic version, Bóbr 3 provides ballistic protection at levels 2 and 3 according to STANAG 4569, and at the level of 2A in terms of minimum resistance. Additional armor panels will increase the shield to level 3.

[AftiksPL 197]

Suggestion:

 

Polish light all-terrain vehicle LPT with a B-10 82mm gun. 

[Miltaccfd 240]

To be honest with you guys once I maybe seen the Bóbr, but I forgot it I wont say anything about it yet, I would like to know more, because now I cant decide its 8.0 or 9.3

Currently I dont think that it should be ingame... Too bad against stabilized guns with APFSDS or even thermals... Around 8.3 it would be good, but I would like to delete BWP-1 Puma with RCWS-30 turret and Pandur II there because of the lack of reloadable missiles and because these are carrying Spike missiles and Bushmasters in a BR where V4 should be side-by-side with USSR and I dont want NATO weapon usage there. If Bobr can shoot on the move, has thermals, and have Spike LR II, it maybe can be 9.3, which is still a "russian BR", but can be paired with NATO easily.

LPT with the B-10 was an actual TD? Because I think its just for transporting the heavy equipment. It looks small to turn around or even sideways the weapon and shoot. Only backwards? Would it be good enough? Not to mention the hot gas would hit the driver and the guy sit next to him if the gun was fired backwards.

[AkIvonDemolka 352]

From what I know and found about AMZ Kutno Bóbr-3 (ATGM)

-It is possible to shoot on the move for defense purposes.
-Spike LR II rocket launcher (mockup)
-No possibility of automated reloading from under the armor. Only 4 ATGM rockets.
-Thermovision, as in the standard AMZ Kutno Bóbr-3, preliminary tests of the weapon module, which will allow to choose the most optimal solutions for the prototype. The Bóbr 3 can be armed with machine guns or a 40 mm grenade launcher.

Suggestions:

ZSU-23-4MP Biała - Polish modification of the Soviet ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled anti-aircraft system.

A set to fight air superiority and asymmetric warfare.

About 70 ZSU-23-4MP Biała self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery vehicles are to be manufactured for the needs of the Polish Army as a cheaper alternative to the Loire self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery system.

In addition to typical observation periscopes, the vehicle has means of observation in night conditions. In the case of the driver, it is TWNO-2 with a range of 60-100 meters, while in the case of the vehicle commander, the device enabling night observation is the TKN-1T night vision device with a range of 200-250 meters. In order to use one of these night vision devices, it is necessary to illuminate the area with the PG-125 infrared illuminator.

Biała has an optoelectronic Fire Control System (FCS) with an automatic target tracking system during the day and at night (the FCS operation is undetectable to the enemy)!

Additionally, in order to double the firepower, it is equipped with a set of Grom anti-aircraft missiles, the effective range of which is approximately 5500 meters.

The newest modifications: from 2010, 2011 and 2012 to - 9 ZSU-23-4MP Biała

The use of a digital, optoelectronic Fire Control System with an automatic target tracking system during the day and at night.

Enabling the use of the latest types of sub-caliber artillery ammunition, allowing to increase the range of fighting air and ground targets.

Elimination of radar, active means of optical observation of the commander and driver, a significant reduction in the emission of thermal radiation, which unmasks the set on the battlefield!

Increasing the range of optical observation in low visibility conditions thanks to the use of the latest generation of passive thermovision tracks in the commander's and driver's instruments and the incorporation of such a system in the weapon operator's optical sight.

Reduction from 4 to 3 crew members.

Improving traction properties and increasing the operating range of the set.

Changing the 23 mm caliber ammunition (for the ZU-23-2 and ZSU-23-4 AA guns) to more modern types allowed to increase the effective firing range to 3500 meters, which is about 500-1000 meters more than in the case of the ZSU-23 -4!

 

Source
Polish military magazine Nowa Technika Wojskowa

[Miltaccfd 240]

Spoiler

15 hours ago, AkIvonDemolka said:

From what I know and found about AMZ Kutno Bóbr-3 (ATGM)

-It is possible to shoot on the move for defense purposes.
-Spike LR II rocket launcher (mockup)
-No possibility of automated reloading from under the armor. Only 4 ATGM rockets.
-Thermovision, as in the standard AMZ Kutno Bóbr-3, preliminary tests of the weapon module, which will allow to choose the most optimal solutions for the prototype. The Bóbr 3 can be armed with machine guns or a 40 mm grenade launcher.

Suggestions:

ZSU-23-4MP Biała - Polish modification of the Soviet ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled anti-aircraft system.

A set to fight air superiority and asymmetric warfare.

About 70 ZSU-23-4MP Biała self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery vehicles are to be manufactured for the needs of the Polish Army as a cheaper alternative to the Loire self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery system.

In addition to typical observation periscopes, the vehicle has means of observation in night conditions. In the case of the driver, it is TWNO-2 with a range of 60-100 meters, while in the case of the vehicle commander, the device enabling night observation is the TKN-1T night vision device with a range of 200-250 meters. In order to use one of these night vision devices, it is necessary to illuminate the area with the PG-125 infrared illuminator.

Biała has an optoelectronic Fire Control System (FCS) with an automatic target tracking system during the day and at night (the FCS operation is undetectable to the enemy)!

Additionally, in order to double the firepower, it is equipped with a set of Grom anti-aircraft missiles, the effective range of which is approximately 5500 meters.

The newest modifications: from 2010, 2011 and 2012 to - 9 ZSU-23-4MP Biała

The use of a digital, optoelectronic Fire Control System with an automatic target tracking system during the day and at night.

Enabling the use of the latest types of sub-caliber artillery ammunition, allowing to increase the range of fighting air and ground targets.

Elimination of radar, active means of optical observation of the commander and driver, a significant reduction in the emission of thermal radiation, which unmasks the set on the battlefield!

Increasing the range of optical observation in low visibility conditions thanks to the use of the latest generation of passive thermovision tracks in the commander's and driver's instruments and the incorporation of such a system in the weapon operator's optical sight.

Reduction from 4 to 3 crew members.

Improving traction properties and increasing the operating range of the set.

Changing the 23 mm caliber ammunition (for the ZU-23-2 and ZSU-23-4 AA guns) to more modern types allowed to increase the effective firing range to 3500 meters, which is about 500-1000 meters more than in the case of the ZSU-23 -4!

 

Source
Polish military magazine Nowa Technika Wojskowa

 

I wrote it down before, why I used the ones in this tree.
 

On 11/03/2020 at 17:16, Miltaccfd said:

I know there are a lot of SPAAs in the top tiers. From 8.0-10.3 there are the Strop I, the Strop II, its modification, the BRAMS, PZA Loara, there is a mockup of PZR Loara, there is the two LSPZRA, Sopel and Stalagmit, there is the Biala and later Hibneryts with Grom missiles and some only-missile SPAAs which cant really be ingame, because they cant shoot at tanks, like OSA-AKM, OSA IRIS, Żbik-P/R, KUBs, 9K31, Poprad and others. I wont overfill the tree. That means we need a 8.0, a 10.0-10.3 and maybe an other one. (None of the current trees has more.) So even if we have all of these, only 3 we can choose. In my tree there is the Strop I, which has no radar, just an optical guidance, has the iconic Czech 30 mms and perfect turret rotation speed. I know, its only a prototype, but I dont want to be change it to another Gepard-like thing. We have enough of those. Oh, and not to get NATO feeling in the middle of the soviet era.
For the 10.3 and the other I choosed the LSPZRA variants, because they are similar, so easy to model, but do not give us copy paste feelings like the Biala, these arent mockups like PZR Loara and are not that big monsters like Strop II and BRAMS. They have a good load of missiles, one Strelas, the other Groms, one has no gun aiming assistance (thats why it can be the lowest BR missile-SPAA, a reason to grind it) the other has optical assistance (again). Both are Polish, a way to compromise Poles for not using the Loara.
Of course, this SPAA lineup doesnt contains any radar, and that might be a problem, but it can be one of the unique features of this tree.

[PacketlossRedux 595]

 

How much track armor you want?

Yes.

 

this add-on armor would make the Turan II a banger of a tank at its br 2.7-3.3 smthng

Edited January 29, 2021 by Jacky95

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

I think this is the best way to introduce these nations. Btw what about navy?

[AftiksPL 197]

13 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

Btw what about navy?

The navy tree is ready but needs to be converted into a coastal and bluewater fleet. You can see the tree here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QJO-yfSlebRydFpGh9uVTpvHoeVzJD5JpgjgtZk1gTA/edit?usp=sharing

Edited January 30, 2021 by AftiksPL

[HufnagelPista 135]

Hungary had some nice boats (like SMS Szent István) But after Trianon, only Poland have a navy

[eleks12 1,079]

7 hours ago, HufnagelPista said:

Hungary had some nice boats (like SMS Szent István) But after Trianon, only Poland have a navy

 

Yea. And i also think that the Austro-Hungarian Navy should be included in a Eastern European Tree. I personally don't mind reather or not if it's my suggestion or the Visagrad suggestion that gets included in the game. Though im interrested what we do with Yugoslavia and Romania. Since im not really convinced they can stand on their own in War Thunder.

 

But i do Think the Austro-Hungarian Navy should get some special treatment in the game. Even though i believe that Austria should only be included in the German tree.

 

K.u.K Kriegsmarine - The Austro-Hungarian Navy in WW1 (naval-encyclopedia.com)

[AftiksPL 197]

33 minutes ago, eleks12 said:

Though im interrested what we do with Yugoslavia and Romania. Since im not really convinced they can stand on their own in War Thunder.

Yugoslavia has enough new and interesting vehicles to be added. Romania with the addition of Bulgarian and Moldavian vehicles can also be a stand-alone tree. The Eastern European tree would be too big, Visegrad tree itself is overloaded with vehicles. If you added vehicles from Romania or Yugoslavia, you would have to throw away unique Polish, Hungarian and Czech vehicles.

[IceySmooth 198]

Obviously love the suggestion

Near top tier Polish MBT (10.3) (besides Leo2PL) could be proto PT-16 with its 5 sec autoloader
 

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt_16.htm

[StaszekJones 853]

7 minutes ago, icehawk223 said:

Obviously love the suggestion

Near top tier Polish MBT (10.3) (besides Leo2PL) could be proto PT-16 with its 5 sec autoloader
 

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt_16.htm

This proto dont have any autloader This tank cant be runing for much time itself :x 

There is more info about Leopard 3 than to this PT-16