The reason why Chinese players feel disappointed on ZTZ96A tank

[Must_Forgiveher 16]

Hi, I'm a Chinese player who have played warthunder for three years. Recently, there have been a lot of discussion on the incoming Chinese tank ZTZ96A in Chinese player communities, and most of the Chinese players feel dissatisfied on its performance in devserver. I fully understand that there is a lack of communication between Chinese and other player communities, so that I hope to explain some representitive opionions in Chinese player comminities to you guys. I believe that friendly interactions will benefit all players.

Firstly, most of the Chinese players just want the performance of ZTZ96A tank in warthunder be close to the existing data we can find from clear and reliable sources. I never saw any Chinese player want ZTZ96A to defeat more advanced and expensive tanks such as M1A2 and Leo2A5/A6, as it is a common sense that ZTZ96 series are cost-effecitive tanks mainly focusing on its firepower. Therefore, I think the point of view that "Chinese players dissatisfied on ZTZ96 tanks because of their fanatical nationalism" is incorrect. Actually, this time, the expections of Chinese players on ZTZ96A were generally based on credible sources. I will list some critical expections from Chinese players on this tank, and then I will give the reference.

KE protection:

Upper front hull: 360mm (Base armour) + 180mm (FY4 ERA) = 540mm

Turrent front: 380mm (Base armour) + 180mm (FY4 ERA) = 560mm

In devserver:

 

FY4 only give 72mm of protection against KE at 68 deg, which is even worse than the 120mm of contact-5.

Fire power:

BTA4/DTW/"Phase 2" APFSDS, with the penetration of 220mm/68.5 deg @ 2000m, which is equal to about 600mm vertical penetration.

In devserver: "Phase 1" APFSDS, with the penetration of 460mm vertical at 0m.

Reverse speed:

higher than -10Km/h

In devserver：5km/h

Others:

We haven't find very credible resourses for the base armour change, the turrent transverse and gun vertical rotation speed, and the quality of thermal imaging systems, so it's ok to keep the current values, but there is no reason that ZTZ96s have lower fire rate than T-72.

Reference：

1. The sales manual of Norinco Group. VT2 is the export name of ZTZ96 series. The the dimensions, weight and effect of FY4 ERA, and the penetration of "phase 2" APFSDS is shown.

2. Reverse speed

The fast reverse of ZTZ96B tank on "tank biathlon" game. (see the attached image)

The reverse of ZTZ96A, which is still obviously faster than the reverse speed of T-72B3. The reverse speed of T-72B3 can also be found in "tank biathlon" games. (see the attached image)

3. Chinese sources

The specification on the package of DTW, or "Phase 2" APFSDS, proving the correctness of above mentioned penetration value.

 

The national standard for FY4 ERA, showing the same KE protection as the Norinco Group sales manual. (Reduce 30% of the penetration against APFSDS with 600mm penetration, which is equal to 180mm protection)

Therefore, it is clear that the performance of ZTZ96A tank in devserve is much weaker than what we expected based on the reliable resources. As I browsed a lot of discussions on Chinese player communities, the vent of emotions on the incorrect performance do exist, but I want to reiterate that, most of the Chinese players never thought to get a unbeatable overpower tank. They only want that the ZTZ96A tank can be correctly showed in game. Or, if the developers insist on their opinion on the performance of ZTZ96A, at least they should keep the balance of this tank, put it to BR 9.7 will be much better. Otherwise, the current ZTZ96A tank in game will be outperformed by all its 10.0 counterparts, similar to the ignored Chinese TT.

[ToddlerSpeedbump 1,794]

finally a good, informative thread/post on whats currently going on 

oh, and welcome to "underperforming-thunder". lets hope things get fixed but dont count on it

[Kruegercondail 0]

Well looks like the tank is going down to 9.7 according to the European Canadian 

[xxsyfwl 7]

The fundamental problem is not solved, so whether Chinese cars will be like this in the future, 96b tank or even all the cars with fy4 in the future, what will you do? How do you change a car that is more advanced than 96b?

[MSGKI_HARA_UOOH 2,828]

On 12/03/2020 at 01:27, Must_Forgiveher said:

 

This looks fake, why is the numbers blur while the letters are sharp? Its like someone photoshopped it.

Do you have the document for this? PDF or anything?

 

On 12/03/2020 at 01:27, Must_Forgiveher said:

KE protection:

Upper front hull: 360mm (Base armour) + 180mm (FY4 ERA) = 540mm

Turrent front: 380mm (Base armour) + 180mm (FY4 ERA) = 560mm

In devserver:

 

i do think this is not caused by the armor itself.

Soviet/Chinese ammo being jacketed APFSDS reduces the shaving effect of kontakt 5.

Most APFSDS still cannot peneterate that.

 

Also VT-2 is ZTZ96B, the one in game is ZTZ96A if i understand that right.

The 2014 tank biathlon is ZTZ96A and it does move like it is in the game.

The A version dont have 800hp engine with the improved transmission.

[Black_Woof 123]

The rumor I heard is that the person responsible for submitting the material and the person responsible for transmitting the material to the developer have a direct contradiction. It seems that the sender does not want to admit that the "student" China has surpassed the "teacher" Russia in some technical aspects. (For example, FY4 is considered to be the reverse engineering of K5, but in fact China did not even get the original K5) So developers didn't get data.
My point of view is similar to Must_Forgiveher. If you want the performance of these nerfed vehicles, you can put it at a lower BR. High BR + high repair costs + nerf, I can hardly speculate on the intention. Maybe gaijin just dont want you play it?
But now I want to wait for the data in the live server, or I hope that after completing the task of Swedish tree, gaijin can really start to fix the Chinese tree from now on.

[Wo_tm_call_12339 12]

Let's just face it. Gaijin is gaming company, and they need money. The amount of people playing chinese tech tree is not enough, and most importantly people who play chinese tech tree (me) don't spend real life currency as much as other nations' players. How we gonna wish Gaijin to pay attention to us and give us good stuff if they don't profit as much from us than other. I got to ztz96 and stopped, the fact that it doesn't get stocked apfsds and the none stock one is 620 per shot with only 460 ish pen is the main reason. Chinese tree is a literal scam, I mean what is the point, it's full of copy pastes and hugely unbalanced vehicles, zsu-57-2 with proximity is equal to a gepard? F off Gaijin. What I do is play the t80u and put a chinese flag on it. This so i can play an actual good tank, kill capitalist scums and still represent my country.

[MSGKI_HARA_UOOH 2,828]

1 hour ago, ChineseRedneck said:

and most importantly people who play chinese tech tree (me) don't spend real life currency as much as other nations' players.

 

Hogwash, i seen more tanks with chinese flag on it than US flag recently

[Wo_tm_call_12339 12]

7 hours ago, Samuel_Hyde said:

 

Hogwash, i seen more tanks with chinese flag on it than US flag recently

Yes, you see alot of xm1s with chinese flag leopard l44 with chinese flag.

8 hours ago, Samuel_Hyde said:

 

Hogwash, i seen more tanks with chinese flag on it than US flag recently

I would say you can see a good number of no.545 but not comparable with xm1s l44 and the new swedish boi 

[Haxburch 1,124]

make a bug report !

[霧 丹爪モ匕口丂 靄 466]

Can smb find any source for both ZTZ96 and ZTZ96A Optics? I tried to search on english and russian but couldn't find anything reliable. + with not being sure I'm don't agree with devs about those tanks has no any optic zoom capability 

[User94998549 2,838]

On 19/03/2020 at 16:21, ChineseRedneck said:

Let's just face it. Gaijin is gaming company, and they need money. The amount of people playing chinese tech tree is not enough, and most importantly people who play chinese tech tree (me) don't spend real life currency as much as other nations' players.

 

Agreed. The most money comes from Westerners, that's why the trees that are most dear to them get the most attention.

 

On 19/03/2020 at 16:21, ChineseRedneck said:

How we gonna wish Gaijin to pay attention to us and give us good stuff if they don't profit as much from us than other. I got to ztz96 and stopped, the fact that it doesn't get stocked apfsds and the none stock one is 620 per shot with only 460 ish pen is the main reason.

 

Oh dear lord. I looked and it's in tier 4. That's either stupid or malicious.

 

On 19/03/2020 at 16:21, ChineseRedneck said:

Chinese tree is a literal scam, I mean what is the point, it's full of copy pastes and hugely unbalanced vehicles, zsu-57-2 with proximity is equal to a gepard?

 

Don't forget that it's also a nerfed ZSU.

 

Horizontal turret traverse is 30°/s vs 60°/s of that of Soviet ZSU-57-2.

 

Vertical traverse is 16°/s vs 20°/s.

 

 

Meanwhile SWE has VEAK 40 - RADAR spaa with proximity shells at same BR - 8.0 and US had M247 at 8.0 for a long time.

 

Meanwhile the absolute brokenness that is Falcon, Uk's probably best MBT, sits at 7.3...

 

In what alternate universe does 8.0 make sense for WZ305?

 

On 19/03/2020 at 16:21, ChineseRedneck said:

F off Gaijin

 

Fully agree. Don't forget the BS of Chinese copy-paste vehicles being much more expensive to repair than those in other trees.

 

Good example M48A, stock repairs:

US: 4300

GER: 3350

CHN: 6400

What load of BS is this?

 

Mig9L costs 12k stock!!! Soviet 9L is 10k spaded.

 

Type-59, 59D1 and 69 cost 6000 stock. I'm sorry Gaijin, but I don't see China clubbing anyone, nor do I see a reason for these inflated repair costs.

 

And so on.

 

On 23/03/2020 at 21:05, Haxburch said:

make a bug report !

 

i second this suggestion.

[BRAAAP_STUTUTUU 620]

isn't the 96A supposed to have FY-2 ERA? with FY-2 being roughly equivalent to Kontakt-5 and FY-4 being roughly equivalent to Malachit?

[GoddePro 1,147]

On 24/04/2020 at 21:18, BRAAAP_STUTUTUU said:

isn't the 96A supposed to have FY-2 ERA? with FY-2 being roughly equivalent to Kontakt-5 and FY-4 being roughly equivalent to Malachit?

FY-4 is closer to Relikt than Malachit, since we have absolutely no information on Malachit

[Conan2000 163]

Who cares no Chinese arses on our EU and US they can have their own and stay there, they a re a virus

[Laurelix 5,474]

Apfsds underperforms for everyone nation expect USSR

 

 

[Alopen 46]

On 19/03/2020 at 20:41, ChineseRedneck said:

Yes, you see alot of xm1s with chinese flag leopard l44 with chinese flag.

I would say you can see a good number of no.545 but not comparable with xm1s l44 and the new swedish boi 

My kid puts all kind of stupid flags on tanks. That doesn't mean I’m a player from North Korea or Brazil. He just likes the looks. I would like to see a proper Chinese lineup though. I am drooling at the idea of T-72s copies with F100A equipped with bullpups to satisfy my desire to play soviets top tier with viable CAS. Sorry I meant ZTZs not copies of T-72s . . . 

[Laurelix 5,474]

So that chinese ERA should increase KE protection by 30%?

 

 

Well it just went from 360mm KE to 565mm KE with its ERA. Well instead of 30% its more like 57% right now

[Laurelix 5,474]

125-II APFSDS

480mm @ 2000m (0)

278mm @ 2000m (60)

220mm @ 2000m (68.5) - 600mm LOS

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Laurelix

[MSGKI_HARA_UOOH 2,828]

On 16/10/2020 at 17:30, Laurelix said:

So that chinese ERA should increase KE protection by 30%?

 

 

 

Well it just went from 360mm KE to 565mm KE with its ERA. Well instead of 30% its more like 57% right now

 

I really doubt any ERA can reduce penetration that much.

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

Just now, Nakadashi_OG3 said:

 

I really doubt any ERA can reduce penetration that much.

 

it will when you aim between two ERA tiles with Volumetric shells

[MSGKI_HARA_UOOH 2,828]

yknow it would be cool for chinese to develop tanks outside T-72 or T-54 with bodykits yknow?

[OddPhenomena 1,015]

6 hours ago, Nakadashi_OG3 said:

yknow it would be cool for chinese to develop tanks outside T-72 or T-54 with bodykits yknow?

I am sure even if China developed something completely from scratch, which they have, but oh well, people would find some way to compare it to an existing design and call it a copy. There's only so many ways to build things, and the PLA doesn't design their tanks with people on the internet calling their vehicles copies in mind.

[Bunny 宝妮 1,477]

On 14/03/2020 at 14:40, Nakadashi_OG3 said:

Also VT-2 is ZTZ96B, the one in game is ZTZ96A if i understand that right.

What are you talking about? A simple research online will definitely tell you VT-2 is ZTZ 96A. I don't know where did you get the information that tells you VT-2 is ZTZ 96B.

 

Spoiler

 

 

On 14/03/2020 at 14:40, Nakadashi_OG3 said:

The A version dont have 800hp engine with the improved transmission.

The A version DO have a 800 hp engine in the beginning, but was soon updated with a 1000 hp Liquid-cooled, turbocharged Diesel engine. And the max speed of the tank in the game is wrong as well. It is 65 km/h.

 

Spoiler

 

[Taskforce404 210]

39 minutes ago, Exophobia said:

What are you talking about? A simple research online will definitely tell you VT-2 is ZTZ 96A. I don't know where did you get the information that tells you VT-2 is ZTZ 96B.

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The A version DO have a 800 hp engine in the beginning, but was soon updated with a 1000 hp Liquid-cooled, turbocharged Diesel engine. And the max speed of the tank in the game is wrong as well. It is 65 km/h.

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

actually the 1000hp ver. is tank biathlon edition called 96A1