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Tier VII - VIII Aviation Discussion


EpicBlitzkrieg87
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4 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Yes, it's a 4.5 gen, or 4+, or however the marketing works. 

 

It's not a 5th generation fighter though.

No one said that.

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In my opinion, at least for America because they're the aviation nation I'd know most about for high tier picks, I'd say after the F-4 Phantom and any versions thereof would be the F-111 (suggestion thread here: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/435612-f-111-aardvark-the-forgotten-legend), and then the F-14. Also as far as modern aircraft go we could add the F-117a and YF-117a into the tech tree tabbed under the later jet bombers, and if we get something like the B-52 the B-2 would follow. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Yes, it's a 4.5 gen, or 4+, or however the marketing works. 

 

It's not a 5th generation fighter though.

The marketing ... lol

 

Every true expert (and not any troll on the internet) would tell you that the Rafale is basically the best omni-role aircracft you can get currently on the market... its a fact the Swiss army recognize and many other, it is above 4 gen aircraft currently on the market.

 

Its just on another league, of course it's not as insane as the F22 in air to air, but it can do everything, and pretty damn well.

 

for info :

Spoiler

 

 

But yeah an equivallant to the jet you put blitz would be the Mirage 2000.

 

And my favorite, the Mirage 2000-5 (probably a bit to strong, but with fox 3 unlike the Mirgae 2000 RDI)

Edited by Trotrodor
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45 minutes ago, Trotrodor said:

The marketing ... lol

 

Every true expert (and not any troll on the internet) would tell you that the Rafale is basically the best omni-role aircracft you can get currently on the market... its a fact the Swiss army recognize and many other, it is above 4 gen aircraft currently on the market.

 

Its just on another league, of course it's not as insane as the F22 in air to air, but it can do everything, and pretty damn well.

 

for info :

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

But yeah an equivallant to the jet you put blitz would be the Mirage 2000.

 

And my favorite, the Mirage 2000-5 (probably a bit to strong, but with fox 3 unlike the Mirgae 2000 RDI)

By marketing I mean however people choose to define the planes which are better than Gen 4 but not Gen 5. People have used stuff like Gen 4.5 or Gen 4+, etc. Don't get so worked up.

 

28 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

I* didn't say that.

:D

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40 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

By marketing I mean however people choose to define the planes which are better than Gen 4 but not Gen 5. People have used stuff like Gen 4.5 or Gen 4+, etc. Don't get so worked up.

 

:D

I was just saying ;), there is a gen between 4 and 5 (after all, gen are pretty based around arbitrary criteria)

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4 hours ago, Notice_Me_Senpoi said:

Rafale is unlikely even in a long term perspective. Mirage 2000 is more in line with any of the plane you're displaying there.

Rafale is a plane of the F-22 generation, not F-16. Rafale is a 90s design that was first deployed in 2002 (2005 for the F-22). F-16 and Mig-29 are 70/80s design.

 

Anyway, we got time. Hopefully a LONG time before we move on to 80s planes. A good half of the mechanics those planes needs to function properly in WT aren't there. I'd rather we start by fleshing out existing tree and hopefully achieve some sort of BALANCE between ALL nations before moving to more modern technology.

 

you can start from the first variants and not the latest Rafale F4.. 

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4 hours ago, Notice_Me_Senpoi said:

Rafale is unlikely even in a long term perspective. Mirage 2000 is more in line with any of the plane you're displaying there.

Rafale is a plane of the F-22 generation, not F-16. Rafale is a 90s design that was first deployed in 2002 (2005 for the F-22). F-16 and Mig-29 are 70/80s design.

 

Anyway, we got time. Hopefully a LONG time before we move on to 80s planes. A good half of the mechanics those planes needs to function properly in WT aren't there. I'd rather we start by fleshing out existing tree and hopefully achieve some sort of BALANCE between ALL nations before moving to more modern technology.

 

Yeah we need ,ways to switch what armament we are using on the run for loadouts with different missiles , select pylon loadouts ,  a better way to display radar , radar guided missiles , chaff , bigger maps , more modern maps with actual air bases , SAM / Tunguska / Vulcan defended airfields etc

 

We need maps that do not use WW2 assets anymore and are big enough to give a strategic meaning to positioning 

 

Edited by _ArchangelAzrael
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Well we don't even have competitive Top Tier Planes for every Nation,hell some dont even have Supersonics ...poor Italy.

I don't we should add any Tier VII until then

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23 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

Hi!

 

I'm not sure if this is the best place to discuss this but here we go. Before I start explaining, I want to quickly note that I'd like to see tier 7 jets at some point in time. We're still missing the century jets and a handful of aircraft to place at tier 6.

 

 

These are also other things to consider:

 

1- This question from the 23rd of December, 2019

 

  Reveal hidden contents

4aUeFNO.png

 

2- The F-4EJ KAI is confirmed, an F-4EJ fitted with AAM-3 missiles which were developed from the AIM-9L all-aspect missiles and are better, and it will have an ECM pod

 

  Reveal hidden contents

qapn8x9xvz741.png?width=960&crop=smart&a

 

 

So let's start... (if you're going to discuss please read carefully :good:)

 

As you all know, we finally have flares. 1.97 "Viking Fury" has given us a rough insight (if not good) on how missile and flare combat works. As it turns out, it's not as skilless as previously thought of before.

 

Even with flares, you still need skill. Situational awareness is an important skill in jets. You have to keep watching out for missiles in order to pop out your flares. You can't just be careless. You also have to turn off your afterburner(s) in time in order for flares to work, and even though that sounds like it's easily done, you have to be very quick at reacting in order to do it since jet combat is quite swift. 

 

At the same time, flares can also render a fired missile useless if done correctly. 

 

Keeping both cases in mind, they lead us to one thing in the end: the good old fashioned gun-game. Guns are still quite important, and even if you had ridiculous missiles with something like a track rate of 30 deg/s and high G overload, you would still need a gun. Why? Because after you run out of those missiles, you're going to need something else to use in order to kill. This is especially something important to consider with planes like the F-104S CI, an Italian F-104S with AIM-7E and AIM-9L missiles and no gun. You could either get 1-4 kills because of their capabilities, or miss all of them because of countermeasures. You would NEED a gun no matter what. You wouldn't go around killing everything in site consistently. 

 

It seems that this is not the boring "fire your missile and forget everything else" gameplay we perceived in our minds before. 

 

Realizing this has lowkey given me some hype. I'm a big fan of MiGs, and I'd really like to see the MiG-29 at some point in time, along with other planes such as the F-14A, MiG-25P, especially the Mirage F.1 and  F-16A because my country's air force has them :) 

 

I have some illustrations (don't pay attention to the BRs, they're random picks):

 

 

F-104S+Starfighter.jpgMitsubishi+F-2A.jpgMiG-29S.jpgF-16A+block+15.jpgRafale.jpg

 

Note: the AIM-120A was not on every block of the F-16A, such as block 5 and 10

 

Discuss in a civil way please :salute: 

 

Blitz

F-2A can also carry AAM-5 air to air missile which are even better AAM-3s. it also has it's own Japanese developed radar guided missiles

AAM-4 and AAM-4B which was the world's first air-to-air missile with an AESA radar seeker.

 

that being said as much as i would love to see Viper zero soon there needs to be major changes to jet air rb.

 

BRs need to be adjusted much more frequently.

Much much bigger maps for jets.

Or killing two birds with one stone introduce air rb EC mode to jets. Not only will it bring new big maps which help give lots of space and will help future radar guided missiles and help lots of jets there are a tone of objectives too and the mode is already in game in the form of air sim EC.

No more mixed battles too.

21 hours ago, Tidsloop said:

A couple more years of aviation development, plus adding more maps and regular enduring confrontation, with a good filled out rank supersonic era of jets is gonna be so cool.

 

Enduring confrontation battles with top jets etc.

 

Also, bring EC at least every weekend for realistic air, thank you!

 

And max 130k-200k RP for high ranks please, 390k is too much even with premium imo. It´s not like it´s not a lot to research already.

+ wishlist https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/discussions/0/2646361245002828638/ :D

 

:salute:

 

 

I managed to grind out the F4EJ in just 5 days after the updated released by playing Air sim EC mode. I have no joystick and all i mainly did was bomb bases you get a crapton of RP.

Edited by Fireraid233
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19 hours ago, Phaere said:

Since your entire list is Multi-role fighters I'd honestly prefer the SU-30 series aircraft to the Mig-29 which is a short-range air superiority fighter.

 

They're just a few examples, there are many more to think of. 

51 minutes ago, Fireraid233 said:

F-2A can also carry AAM-5 air to air missile which are even better AAM-3s. it also has it's own Japanese developed radar guided missiles

AAM-4 and AAM-4B which was the world's first air-to-air missile with an AESA radar seeker.

 

I'm well aware of that :salute: you just can't fit everything into one small card. 

2 hours ago, CreditCardCmndo said:

Well we don't even have competitive Top Tier Planes for every Nation,hell some dont even have Supersonics ...poor Italy.

I don't we should add any Tier VII until then

 

That's why I said we should flesh out tier 6 first. But, in the longer run, Italy will need tier 7. The next possible tier 6 jet for is only the F-104G. If we want Italy to have more jets, we need tier 7 so that they could have both configurations of the F-104S (CI, CB & ASA), the Tornado and the A-11A Ghibli. 

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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Heh with the for tornado you have a three way tug of war over that. If your looking for Pure fighters both UK and Italy operated F.3's (Italian F.3's were leased out UK F.3's)

 

33249123551_cd96d6b581_b.thumb.jpg.61114

F.3 UK

47942755342_fbaca8f35e_b.thumb.jpg.a8bfb

F.3 Italy

Interms of ground attacker/Multiroles Britain, Italy and Germany used the IDS Germany and Italy also have the ECR.

8750628625_958a2f2f8d_b.thumb.jpg.53a047

GR.4 RAF

1744268327_Panavia_Tornado_IDS_Germany_-

IDS Germany

1202955625_Panavia_Tornado_IDS_Italy_-_A

IDS Italy

758523625_Panavia_Tornado_ECR_Germany_-_

ECR Germany

25671_1491378322.thumb.jpg.2f383b1e39c59

ECR Italy

 

The main difference between the IDS and ECR is that the ECR is desgined more withe Recce and SEAD despite the fact the RAF proved the IDS and ADV F.3 capable of SEAD.

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3 hours ago, TerikG2014 said:

Heh with the for tornado you have a three way tug of war over that. If your looking for Pure fighters both UK and Italy operated F.3's (Italian F.3's were leased out UK F.3's)

 

33249123551_cd96d6b581_b.thumb.jpg.61114

F.3 UK

47942755342_fbaca8f35e_b.thumb.jpg.a8bfb

F.3 Italy

Interms of ground attacker/Multiroles Britain, Italy and Germany used the IDS Germany and Italy also have the ECR.

8750628625_958a2f2f8d_b.thumb.jpg.53a047

GR.4 RAF

1744268327_Panavia_Tornado_IDS_Germany_-

IDS Germany

1202955625_Panavia_Tornado_IDS_Italy_-_A

IDS Italy

758523625_Panavia_Tornado_ECR_Germany_-_

ECR Germany

25671_1491378322.thumb.jpg.2f383b1e39c59

ECR Italy

 

The main difference between the IDS and ECR is that the ECR is desgined more withe Recce and SEAD despite the fact the RAF proved the IDS and ADV F.3 capable of SEAD.

The F3 isnt a fighter it's a interceptor

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6 hours ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

The F3 isnt a fighter it's a interceptor

Yes i know but in this game the two might as well be one also TBF the F.

 In F.3 does stand for Fighter 

Edited by TerikG2014

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23 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

That's why I said we should flesh out tier 6 first. But, in the longer run, Italy will need tier 7. The next possible tier 6 jet for is only the F-104G. If we want Italy to have more jets, we need tier 7 so that they could have both configurations of the F-104S (CI, CB & ASA), the Tornado and the A-11A Ghibli. 

It's not just Italy

China desperately needs tier 7 because everything below is copy paste or not making the tree worth to play, if people had a quick access to a mirage or a su 27 then for sure they would grind the tree , plus there's indigenous designs that could be interesting to play like F-CK 1 , J10 , JH7 etc 

 

But I am going to have to say , it is the minor nations that should lead the charge with tier 7 and not the big three

Why ?

Because they already are at the top of top tier with vehicles that render anything that isnt a Mig or a Phantom either niche or obsolete to play

Let THEM have to outplay the enemy for once.

The poor souls flying Drakens , G91YS's , soon Mirage IIIC and so on should get to one up the powercreep nations for once.

 

Edited by _ArchangelAzrael
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23 hours ago, _ArchangelAzrael said:

It's not just Italy

China desperately needs tier 7 because everything below is copy paste or not making the tree worth to play, if people had a quick access to a mirage or a su 27 then for sure they would grind the tree , plus there's indigenous designs that could be interesting to play like F-CK 1 , J10 , JH7 etc 

 

But I am going to have to say , it is the minor nations that should lead the charge with tier 7 and not the big three

Why ?

Because they already are at the top of top tier with vehicles that render anything that isnt a Mig or a Phantom either niche or obsolete to play

Let THEM have to outplay the enemy for once.

The poor souls flying Drakens , G91YS's , soon Mirage IIIC and so on should get to one up the powercreep nations for once.

 

 

I agree with you until the second point. In my opinion all of them should be equal without powercreep. Having the big three as the top was a big mistake, don't repeat the same concept with the other 5. Two wrongs don't fix a right. 

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On 25/03/2020 at 14:40, CreditCardCmndo said:

Well we don't even have competitive Top Tier Planes for every Nation,hell some dont even have Supersonics ...poor Italy.

I don't we should add any Tier VII until then

 

Finally someone with a little bit of commoin sense, you are right and by the time those nation will receive their first supersonic if we need to already have fly by wire jet it they will get clubbed on arrival, terrible idea for now indeed.

 

On 25/03/2020 at 17:31, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

That's why I said we should flesh out tier 6 first. But, in the longer run, Italy will need tier 7. The next possible tier 6 jet for is only the F-104G. If we want Italy to have more jets, we need tier 7 so that they could have both configurations of the F-104S (CI, CB & ASA), the Tornado and the A-11A Ghibli. 

 

Here we go again and using the same italian excuse than for mach 1 while the mach 1 mach 2 issue haven't even been fixed for italy and other smaller nations, but hey why not asking for even more modern planes right? The actual top tier unbalance show that gaijin don't care at all about parity and that they give new content only to favored nations first leaviung other in hell, why would it whange with the arrival of fly by wire? Some people will never get it, but i guess as long as they receive their favorite jets, the game is balanced right?

 

18 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

I want muh British eurofighter standard pls

 

And my Rafale to eat it for breakfast.

 

On 26/03/2020 at 16:52, _ArchangelAzrael said:

It's not just Italy

China desperately needs tier 7 because everything below is copy paste or not making the tree worth to play, if people had a quick access to a mirage or a su 27 then for sure they would grind the tree , plus there's indigenous designs that could be interesting to play like F-CK 1 , J10 , JH7 etc 

 

But I am going to have to say , it is the minor nations that should lead the charge with tier 7 and not the big three

Why ?

Because they already are at the top of top tier with vehicles that render anything that isnt a Mig or a Phantom either niche or obsolete to play

Let THEM have to outplay the enemy for once.

The poor souls flying Drakens , G91YS's , soon Mirage IIIC and so on should get to one up the powercreep nations for once.

 

They will not and we know it, look at French tree state since 2 years, you are right not to believe people like blitkrieg painting this game as balanced and fair while we all know what nations gonna suffer from those modern arrival and what nation gonna receive new content first and club the others as always. Thank you for being a logical mind Azrael.

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3 hours ago, BritishDelivery said:

Here we go again and using the same italian excuse than for mach 1 while the mach 1 mach 2 issue haven't even been fixed for italy and other smaller nations,

For some nations (italy and the UK) the Mach 1 issue isn't easily solvable, For UK the only way to slove it is with the arguably too advaced Jaguar and with the italians there is no solution Italy did not develop or use mach 1 aircraft, it they went strait from the F-104S to the tornado

 

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