Tier VII - VIII Aviation Discussion

[Stavroforos 15,367]

What's so advanced about the Jaguar?

[oppsijustkilledu@psn 2,314]

15 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

What's so advanced about the Jaguar?

4xAIM9L or 4xASRAAM

Upto 60km AS37/AJ168 missle air to ground

 

 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

8 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

4xAIM9L or 4xASRAAM

Upto 60km AS37/AJ168 missle air to ground

 

 

Yes but is anything about the plane itself advanced? All I can see is the navigational system and that doesn't matter in War Thunder. 

 

It can get earlier missiles if it's the case, especially since it was introduced in 1973 and AIM-9L came about in 1977 apparently. 

[MacedonianSukhoi 617]

Already F-16's are suggested without it's little cousin the F-5 Freedom Fighter? 

 

 

 

The most extensive variants in service used were the F-5C Skoshi Tiger(Saw some combat in Vietnam) and the later F-5E Tiger II.

Tho the be fair, an F-5 would be more of a current Tier 6 Jet than a Tier 7.. Except maybe for an F-5E Tiger II? 

 

Regardless... Both variants could be added, and both are Aim-9J capable! 
It would be a breath of fresh air in the American Tech Tree, as an F-5 would take a break from the obnoxious Boom and Zoom meta of American Aircraft 

[Bringer_Of_War 901]

7 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

I agree with you until the second point. In my opinion all of them should be equal without powercreep. Having the big three as the top was a big mistake, don't repeat the same concept with the other 5. Two wrongs don't fix a right. 

It all sounds pretty and all but Gaijin told us they do not proceed this way and they don't wanna go about it any other way.

Would I be for a fully balanced implementation of tier 7 obviously the answer is yes , but they do not proceed like this and it's always the countries with the meta planes that get the powercreep vehicles which is unfair and perpetuates the gap 

US and USSR already have very capable vehicles 

Fighting F15s and Su 27/Mig 29 in Mirage IIIC , J7II , Draken and early F104 models would be very unfair 

 

 

 

[FouManchou 2,463]

5 minutes ago, _ArchangelAzrael said:

would be

Will be

 

 

We all know that's how it'll happen.

[Nicolaser 2,024]

On 24/03/2020 at 21:54, Stavroforos said:

Yes, it's a 4.5 gen, or 4+, or however the marketing works. 

 

It's not a 5th generation fighter though.

Yeah speak about marketing when "5th generation" was a commercial term employed to promote F22 and F35 to the Europe 

 

 

What describe the most a "5th generation" fighter :

- low emissions (tv instead of radar for example)

- multi role capabilities ,bombing (f22 is still not capable of worthy bombing without sacrificing stealth) and dogfighting (f35 is really a good fighter I think that everyone knows that) 

-stealth capabilities

What is funny is that today USAF don't want to make dogfight between rafale and f22 (and to a lesser extent Eurofighter ) because they know that their jewells are not that powerful. European plane are fully capable of engaging and destroying f 22 in exercise rules (by this I mean the electronics giving a higher radar emissions to the f22)

 

What is truth : f22 is maybe the best air supperioty aircraft but not a good "5th gen" 

F35 is... Well it is. We'll see if su 57 will do better than this over two but I do think that stealth is opposed to flight characteristic

 

Finally European are effectively from the generation of the f22. The 5th generation was invented by US when they saw that there was concurrence for the low cost f22 (which is also low performance )

[Stavroforos 15,367]

Well, you're free to believe what you want, if it's so hard for you to believe that Rafale is not as good as F-22. 

[Nicolaser 2,024]

5 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Well, you're free to believe what you want, if it's so hard for you to believe that Rafale is not as good as F-22. 

I'm not saying that rafale is better than f-22 in air supperioty 

 

F22 is a formidable plane which was designed only for one mission in mind: Air superioty (with BVR, stealth...). And damn it is good at it. But US government should (and I do think they know it) know that Russia and Europe already know how to pierce stealth. And I'm sure that f22 manoeuvrability is really bad compared to migs and European fighter. 

[sageman901@psn 699]

before add more advanced aircraft how about we push for bigger maps,  haven't all tired playing on ww2 with mach 2 jets that can cross them in 2min 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

1 hour ago, *sageman901 said:

before add more advanced aircraft how about we push for bigger maps,  haven't all tired playing on ww2 with mach 2 jets that can cross them in 2min 

New vehicles should be added because these maps rarely arrive, and because everyone needs vehicles on existing maps. 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,350]

19 hours ago, Stavroforos said:

What's so advanced about the Jaguar?

 

19 hours ago, Stavroforos said:

Yes but is anything about the plane itself advanced? All I can see is the navigational system and that doesn't matter in War Thunder. 

 

 

Avionics do matter. You can slave your missile using your radar to help your weapon turn better and have more chances of hitting your target, and the efficiency of that heavily depends on your radar's efficiency. I believe the Jaguar had a pulse-doppler radar which helped eliminate ground clutter. Radar is also useful to look for targets who can't see you, and the Jaguar probably had a leading indicator, something only the T-2 currently has. Its RWR was also superior to any jet we have in the game. Besides that, AIM-9G, AIM-9L, AIM-9M and ASRAAM all-aspect missiles (except for the AIM-9G, but still deadly). 

[Fireraid233 4,274]

12 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

 

Avionics do matter. You can slave your missile using your radar to help your weapon turn better and have more chances of hitting your target, and the efficiency of that heavily depends on your radar's efficiency. I believe the Jaguar had a pulse-doppler radar which helped eliminate ground clutter. Radar is also useful to look for targets who can't see you, and the Jaguar probably had a leading indicator, something only the T-2 currently has. Its RWR was also superior to any jet we have in the game. Besides that, AIM-9G, AIM-9L, AIM-9M and ASRAAM all-aspect missiles (except for the AIM-9G, but still deadly). 

T-2 and i think even FRG should not be affected by ground clutter as well but they are. Highly doubt that would change with the Jaguar. T-2 could get 4 AIM-9Ls potentially or at least 2. With how fast gaijin is moving with jets i really wouldn't see a big issue with Jaguar being added once we see things like EJ kai or othera. In terms of air to air it would be slightly better T-2 (if T-2 get it more loadouts) but performance wise they are the same. Of course if it were to be added now with it full strength then yeah it could be a issue.

[oppsijustkilledu@psn 2,314]

23 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

 

Avionics do matter. You can slave your missile using your radar to help your weapon turn better and have more chances of hitting your target, and the efficiency of that heavily depends on your radar's efficiency. I believe the Jaguar had a pulse-doppler radar which helped eliminate ground clutter. Radar is also useful to look for targets who can't see you, and the Jaguar probably had a leading indicator, something only the T-2 currently has. Its RWR was also superior to any jet we have in the game. Besides that, AIM-9G, AIM-9L, AIM-9M and ASRAAM all-aspect missiles (except for the AIM-9G, but still deadly). 

Dont know about more modern IR missles like ASRAAM. But radar slaving all it does is tell the seeker to look here before launch that's it. It does not help the missle in anyway once its launched when it comes to IR missle.

9 minutes ago, Fireraid233 said:

T-2 and i think even FRG should not be affected by ground clutter as well but they are. Highly doubt that would change with the Jaguar. T-2 could get 4 AIM-9Ls potentially or at least 2. With how fast gaijin is moving with jets i really wouldn't see a big issue with Jaguar being added once we see things like EJ kai or othera. In terms of air to air it would be slightly better T-2 (if T-2 get it more loadouts) but performance wise they are the same. Of course if it were to be added now with it full strength then yeah it could be a issue.

Performance isnt the same between jag and T2. The British jagaur had more powerful engines and could hit mach 1.14 at sea level according to the manual.

[Fireraid233 4,274]

34 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

Dont know about more modern IR missles like ASRAAM. But radar slaving all it does is tell the seeker to look here before launch that's it. It does not help the missle in anyway once its launched when it comes to IR missle.

Performance isnt the same between jag and T2. The British jagaur had more powerful engines and could hit mach 1.14 at sea level according to the manual.

T2 and jaguar share the same engines. Was also comparing it to the French version not British.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Fireraid233

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,350]

49 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

Dont know about more modern IR missles like ASRAAM. But radar slaving all it does is tell the seeker to look here before launch that's it. It does not help the missle in anyway once its launched when it comes to IR missle.

 

 

That's what I meant more or less, it helps with getting more successful hits

 

58 minutes ago, Fireraid233 said:

T-2 and i think even FRG should not be affected by ground clutter as well but they are. Highly doubt that would change with the Jaguar. T-2 could get 4 AIM-9Ls potentially or at least 2. With how fast gaijin is moving with jets i really wouldn't see a big issue with Jaguar being added once we see things like EJ kai or othera. In terms of air to air it would be slightly better T-2 (if T-2 get it more loadouts) but performance wise they are the same. Of course if it were to be added now with it full strength then yeah it could be a issue.

 

Both of them shouldn't but oh well

 

For now we shouldn't see the Jaguar until appropriate counterparts are added

[Stavroforos 15,367]

1 hour ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

 

Avionics do matter. You can slave your missile using your radar to help your weapon turn better and have more chances of hitting your target, and the efficiency of that heavily depends on your radar's efficiency. I believe the Jaguar had a pulse-doppler radar which helped eliminate ground clutter. Radar is also useful to look for targets who can't see you, and the Jaguar probably had a leading indicator, something only the T-2 currently has. Its RWR was also superior to any jet we have in the game. Besides that, AIM-9G, AIM-9L, AIM-9M and ASRAAM all-aspect missiles (except for the AIM-9G, but still deadly). 

If we get the ground attack version, it doesn't have radar. 

 

Beyond that, isn't the IR aiming already slaved to the radar in some planes? 

 

And as far as the missiles go, well, Gaijin balances through ammunition. If it deems the AIM-9G or 9L as too strong, then they can give them an earlier model. 

 

Or when the Jaguar is introduced it could be when the missile technology will go forward. 

 

Honestly it seems pretty viable, though doubtful for 1.99 since Britain got the EEL. 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,350]

37 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

Beyond that, isn't the IR aiming already slaved to the radar in some planes? 

 

 

How? You still need to manually lock onto a target with your radar first

 

38 minutes ago, Stavroforos said:

And as far as the missiles go, well, Gaijin balances through ammunition. If it deems the AIM-9G or 9L as too strong, then they can give them an earlier model. 

 

 

There's no model earlier than the AIM-9G for it 

[Stavroforos 15,367]

7 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

How? You still need to manually lock onto a target with your radar first

Isn't that what you're referring to?

 

7 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

There's no model earlier than the AIM-9G for it 

Not sure why you think that's the case, I certainly haven't been able to find any documentation which limits the use of earlier Sidewinders, and the AIM-9L was in service about the time the Jaguar entered service. 

[oppsijustkilledu@psn 2,314]

2 hours ago, Fireraid233 said:

T2 and jaguar share the same engines. Was also comparing it to the French version not British.

They do not share the same engines some of the jags have more powerful engines. It's more than just engines anyway the jags have entirely different wings.

[Fireraid233 4,274]

23 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

They do not share the same engines some of the jags have more powerful engines. It's more than just engines anyway the jags have entirely different wings.

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Mitsubishi_T-2

"The Mitsubishi T-2 features dual Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries TF40-IHI-801A engines which are license-built Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour turbofans, the same utilised in the Jaguar fighters."

 

It's also one of the reasons why the T-2 was the first turbofan jet in game when introduced. And why many people asked for Jaguar since they would have similar performance at the time the T-2 was added.

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Fireraid233

[oppsijustkilledu@psn 2,314]

2 hours ago, Fireraid233 said:

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Mitsubishi_T-2

"The Mitsubishi T-2 features dual Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries TF40-IHI-801A engines which are license-built Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour turbofans, the same utilised in the Jaguar fighters."

 

It's also one of the reasons why the T-2 was the first turbofan jet in game when introduced. And why many people asked for Jaguar since they would have similar performance at the time the T-2 was added.

 

There is more powerful versions of that engine you know, the Mk104 the british used had about 1000lbs more thrust each per engine.

Edited March 28, 2020 by *oppsijustkilledu

[Fireraid233 4,274]

5 minutes ago, *oppsijustkilledu said:

There is more powerful versions of that engine you know, the Mk104 the british used had about 1000lbs more thrust each per engine.

Which i why i specifically said i was comparing it to the French version...

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,350]

19 hours ago, Stavroforos said:

Not sure why you think that's the case, I certainly haven't been able to find any documentation which limits the use of earlier Sidewinders, and the AIM-9L was in service about the time the Jaguar entered service. 

 

There was no reason for it to use earlier missiles. It's a 70s jet. It was born around a time when things like the AIM-9E became obsolete a while before.

[Stavroforos 15,367]

44 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

There was no reason for it to use earlier missiles. It's a 70s jet. It was born around a time when things like the AIM-9E became obsolete a while before.

It came out around the same time when the AIM-9J was being rolled out, and the AIM-9J is already in game.