Spawn Campers: And You're to Blame

[OXidE 15]

A point of contention in War Thunder air arcade is the issue of spawn camping. 

Spawn camping occurs when a player maintains position over the opposing team's spawn area and wreaks havoc by killing freshly spawned planes.

 

• What are your thoughts on spawn camping? Is it acceptable? Does it even exist in your mind?
• What is the best practice to counter spawn campers?
• When enemy planes have a hold over your spawn what can be done? What are your tactics to correct the situation?
• Do you think Gaijin should introduce protection for newly spawned planes? How would that work?
• Is the opportunity to spawn camp an unrealistic feature because in the real world no enemy would or could ever catch you off guard at your home base?

 

In the [IIAC] squadron, we have a saying, "Spawn camping is our fault."
Our squad's motto, We're not just flying - we're flying high is all about altitude climbing at the start of each match. 

In general, we start each game by climbing to 5000m or until our planes are in the highest position (above all enemies planes).

Then "push down" by killing the red team until we rule the sky from above and have the most potential for energy fighting.

With this practice, no enemy has the opportunity to spawn camp. If we didn't follow [IIAC] best practice, getting high at the start of a game, and if spawn campers are the consequence then - it's our fault. 

 

Many players complain about spawn camping in game while others, who have gained the altitude advantage, head over to the opposing team's spawn and set out to destroy from the enemy spawn.

What are your thoughts about spawn camping?

 

 

The good people of [IIAC] squadron want to know!

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by OXidE

[Lets_Pay 251]

i dont even get what youre trying to accomplish by posting this?

[Stahlvormund101 12,039]

That's what I used to do as well when I was still playing AB; as a beginner, when I learned more and more how to abuse my planes strength and abuse other players. I still took pleasure from kills and kills and pat myself on the back.

Then I grew a backbone, saw getting those easy kills wasn't worth it and developed empathy with those abused. It became more about the challenge, the fairness, overcoming a difficult enemy and coming out ahead or die trying to learn and do better. Stopped the frequent spawncamping and became an ardent enemy of it.

And so I play ever since.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Stahlvormund101

[GregKjr 520]

Why is this not in the general spawn camping thread?

 

[IdiotInA 1,139]

Fighters can often find themselves at high altitude and near your spawn simply because the fought their way across the map and won the contention for altitude.
Ive done it myself. You climb... engage... engage... engage.... oh look Im right near the enemy spawn area now... oh look theres a bomber... etc.
'Camping'... would then be to purposely stay there even though nothing is spawning in... and waiting.
Any player who doesnt like to be spawn camped themselves and has a sense of fair play will move back towards the centre of the map once no spawning targets present themselves.

However on the other hand you will have players that feel they have 'earned the right' to spawn camp because they won altitude contention.

And they will stay their purposely to reap the rewards.

Some do it to 'stat-pad' Diving on freshly spawned enemies is a great way to pad out that K/D ratio.

There are plenty of players with seemingly great K/D ratios that are worse at dogfighting under pressure than players with a mediocre K/D ratio.
Simply because they padded it out by spawn camping.

That said... having your spawn camped is not the be all and end all of a match.
You have the option to dive and go for ground targets. And win the match whilst the camper is starved.
 

However what you will more commonly see is numerous players trying to take the camper out. Even though he holds all the advantages.
I know this because I have spawn camped in my I153P many times... not on purpose... but... once there the amount of players just giving themselves up as easy targets is amazing.
Either climbing to engage me... or refusing to dive. 
So a P47 could not outdive a BiPlane? And decided the only option was to  climb after it? Even though the BiPlane had all the advantages.   
Seriously. You have a camper then just nose dive away and drag him down. Starve him of kills. And go for low altitude targets.
He might not even be purposely camping. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by IdiotInA

[OXidE 15]

55 minutes ago, Lets_Pay said:

i dont even get what youre trying to accomplish by posting this?

We want answers! Opinions and considerate replies are welcome too. 
 

The thoughtful responses of IdiotinA and Stahl are examples of what can be accomplished in a community forum. Keep up the great work lads.

Some possible outcomes include ‘how to slay spawn campers’ or discourage/encourage players to do it. Who knows! 

Edited April 4, 2020 by OXidE

[OXidE 15]

41 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

 

Then I grew a backbone, saw getting those easy kills wasn't worth it and developed empathy with those abused. It became more about the challenge, the fairness, overcoming a difficult enemy and coming out ahead or die trying to learn and do better.

And so I play ever since.

Nicely expressed Stahl! You recognize that at a certain point, even if you could position yourself into a true spawn camp advantage - you don’t do it because it would have a negative impact to the overall game play and diminishes the pure enjoyment of War Thunder in a manner disrespectful to other players. 
 

I’m in agreement with you in this opinion. You can get high and close to their bases but don’t have to turn it into spawn camping massacre. 

[anyuser 5,136]

40 minutes ago, OXidE said:

We want answers! Opinions and considerate replies are welcome too. 

You could have taken a look at page 2.

Or one of the many other threads in this subforum about this.

 

And again, most gamemodes are won by groundtargets. Spawncamping does not help here.

If a fighter does escort his own bombers he usually ends up close to the enemy spawn (that is close to the enemy airfield) and if fighters climb up in tunnelvision they should not mourn about being "spawncamped".

Neither should they when they fail to a rope a dope.

And while you can climb anywhere to attack the "spawncamper" they can't control the whole airspace. Neither won't (most) of them planes that dive for the groundtargets.

 

And for the last, your team fails to fight for high air - expect the enemy to be there.

[OXidE 15]

3 minutes ago, anyuser said:

You could have taken a look at page 2.

Or one of the many other threads in this subforum about this.

Thank you anyuser! Page 2?!!! Whaaaaaat?  I’m new to this WT forum thing and have much to learn. It’s only my 3rd post here. Sincerely appreciate your input and guidance. And thanks for adding more to your reply. 

[anyuser 5,136]

Lets say, this discussion is as old as WT.

And it mostly comes up from people who despreatly climb at the "spawncamper" with worse and worse planes after they have been shoot down over and over again.

And sometimes by bomber pilots who think it might be an good idea to spawn with reds close to the spawn and then not even dive the moment they are in control.

 

While I noticed, that several "spawncampber"-clans try to avoid attacking some bombers when not being in full advantage. Had some of them flying away in full speed when they where in a frontal cone of my Tu2. Seems like headoning 2 20mm is not very liked by some of them.

[_TasteTheRainbow 95]

• What are your thoughts on spawn camping? Is it acceptable? Does it even exist in your mind?

As a frequent spawn camper myself in air AB, yes it is a perfectly acceptable tactic, and is only possible once the enemy team has conceded any reasonable hold on air superiority, so your squadron's approach of taking responsibility for being camped as an enemy team is both accurate and refreshing. I'm not going to settle in at spawn if there are enemy fighters at or above my altitude, as it is just too easy to get caught off guard by a space-diver, so I will generally go for those before heading to spawn. Although most of the time, everyone on the enemy team is mowing the lawn in zero-sum furballs, or bombing GT's below 500m, so it's rare that there is even a contest for air superiority.

• What is the best practice to counter spawn campers?

The best cure is prevention. If you want to stop a camper before they get to your spawn, you ideally would want to catch them at the merge where they haven't had a chance to establish a significant energy advantage, and while you hopefully have team mates around. This is not how most people play their first plane, which helps campers to lock down high altitude nice and early.

• When enemy planes have a hold over your spawn what can be done? What are your tactics to correct the situation?

As a general rule, I would say don't engage. You have to bear in mind that despite the rage propaganda that you will see in [All] chat, most spawn campers are highly skilled pilots and many are also very accomplished duelists. They are probably a better player who is in a better plane that is at a better energy state. Diving away is generally the best course of action, unless you want to burn a whole lineup, in which case, go ahead  

• Do you think Gaijin should introduce protection for newly spawned planes? How would that work?

There already is spawn protection for freshly-spawned planes. From memory, it lasts either 5 seconds or until the player shoots - plenty of time to assess your surroundings and take appropriate action, so I don't see the need for any measures beyond that.

• Is the opportunity to spawn camp an unrealistic feature because in the real world no enemy would or could ever catch you off guard at your home base?

I mean, we are talking air arcade, so I don't think realism is a fundamentally important consideration. Aircraft spawn already mid-air, so I think this point is sort of moot.

Edited April 4, 2020 by RyotNZ

[Light_Flight 269]

What are my thoughts on spawn camping? I don’t think the question of acceptability arises, because since the game was launched the rules allow it. In any case, as others have said, you can easily find yourself unintentionally spawn camping, at least for a while. Whilst recognising that good dedicated spawn campers are skilled at what they do, I do sometimes wonder why they enjoy taking out noobies so much.

 

What is the best practice to counter it? Dive dive dive! You can climb back later; or carry on down to take on other fighters or to destroy ground targets.

In my experience, the more the other team has spawn campers, the more likely your team will win the match because there are fewer enemies to stop you ground pounding. Alternatively, by climbing back (away from the campers) you are freer from interference to decide on your next move.

Also, it is very helpful to warn your team of their presence.

 

I have heard of spawn protection though never experienced it. Indeed, I’ve seen players spawning in shot down when their propellers have barely started turning (checked on replay). But it probably would be a good feature, as I believe spawn camping puts off a lot of noobies from further engaging with the game.

 

The only link the game has to the real world is the accurate modelling of the machines (which is why I play it). As for the rest, well it’s just a game and you take it as such.  

[xBILLYJACKx 144]

This whole thread is over my head 

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

spawncamping is good. everyone should spawn camp. Then there would be no more spawn camping.

[PARAMI 478]

15 hours ago, Light_Flight said:

I have heard of spawn protection though never experienced it. Indeed, I’ve seen players spawning in shot down when their propellers have barely started turning (checked on replay). But it probably would be a good feature, as I believe spawn camping puts off a lot of noobies from further engaging with the game. 

If you camp super hard and you're at a point where enemies are spawning one by one, this is what I see: 

 

1) Enemies on a minimap are bright red. Before they spawn, they appear as a duller red color. Depending on whether they're located at the fighter spawn, or the bomber spawn (which is further behind), you know around what altitude they will appear at, so you prepare yourself to chase them, and position yourself accordingly to get the best shot, or get out of the way because you're in a bad spot and you're going to be flying straight into their guns. 

2) Enemy spawns. From that moment of spawning and to around 5 seconds after, they are invulnerable to your fire and in full control of their plane. I am pretty sure they can look around the map and can do anything that they would normally do. 

3) 5 seconds later, they're not protected anymore. I generally start shooting before this happens, and as soon as the timer runs out, they suddenly take damage. 

 

This is my personal experience; the dull red dot might mean something else, but I am 100% certain that spawn protection exists. The replay system is not the best place to get evidence from, as it from my experience has problems locating players at the beginning of their spawns. 

[OXidE 15]

18 hours ago, RyotNZ said:

• What are your thoughts on spawn camping? Is it acceptable? Does it even exist in your mind?

As a frequent spawn camper myself in air AB, yes it is a perfectly acceptable tactic, ... 

Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response @RyotNZ Your views helped to open up the discussion. 

While many players certainly agree with your statements - others vehemently disagree. 

[IdiotInA 1,139]

18 hours ago, RyotNZ said:

• What are your thoughts on spawn camping? Is it acceptable? Does it even exist in your mind?

As a frequent...

Also... like kill stealing... spawn camping isnt as rife as those that complain about it would have you believe.
A lot of players don't seem to understand just because an enemy fighter is flying high in their first quarter area of the map... doesnt mean he's camping their spawn.
Also a lot of fighter players seem to conveniently ignore when an enemy fighter is taking out freshly spawned bombers and prolonging the match their team is clubbing.
Ive done that plenty of times. My team will have just one quarter of their ticket count left so I target the enemy bombers whilst aiding my own. 
Im sure some of those bomber players would say I was camping... and maybe somewhat true. 
Trouble is to a lot of players... anyone in that position is purposely camping for easy kills and ruining the game. Which just isnt true.
Yes it does happen. But probably less than 10% of complaints are actually correct. 
As a rule... I personally wont chase a diving plane if I am near spawn. Even if I can out dive it. My presence has had the intended effect and aids the team.
If however... as in most cases... I am ignored or engaged... its a viable target. 
Anyone who chases down a freshly spawned Wellington that is trying to dive away is a bit of a jerk. 
You're just there for easy kills.
One thing Ive noted about proper spawn campers... they use one plane and leave the battle when they die. 
The frustrations of stat padding I guess 

Edited April 5, 2020 by IdiotInA

[Light_Flight 269]

What with time lying heavy right now, I thought I’d do a little analysis of typical spawn camper behaviour witnessed today. The map was ground strike Korsun. The average BR range was 2.7 to 3.7. On the red side were two members (experience level 100+) of a squadron that famously specialises in spawn camping. One was in a BF 109 F-4 (BR 4.0). He achieved 10 kills. The mean experience level of his kills was 16.8. When finally he was shot down, he did indeed not bother to spawn back in (despite having other planes in his line-up).

 

The other was in a P-47D. He didn’t do quite as well, with 9 kills. Their mean experience level was all of 26.7. He didn’t do quite as well because he wasted time at the start, climbing after my T18B bomber. When he was less than 2 miles from me, I dived like you can only do in Arcade: vertically! He broke off after losing a couple of thousand feet. I went on at ground level to destroy all four bases single handed (following a nicely sneaky route!).

 

Once again, the message is simple: get out of spawn campers’ sights by diving like mad. But, whilst admiring on replay the P47D’s skill in particular, I still wonder what kind of satisfaction you get by such dedicated seal clubbing.

 

[IdiotInA 1,139]

41 minutes ago, Light_Flight said:

What with time lying heavy right now, I thought I’d do a little analysis of typical spawn camper behaviour witnessed today. The map was ground strike Korsun. The average BR range was 2.7 to 3.7. On the red side were two members (experience level 100+) of a squadron that famously specialises in spawn camping. One was in a BF 109 F-4 (BR 4.0). He achieved 10 kills. The mean experience level of his kills was 16.8. When finally he was shot down, he did indeed not bother to spawn back in (despite having other planes in his line-up).

 

The other was in a P-47D. He didn’t do quite as well, with 9 kills. Their mean experience level was all of 26.7. He didn’t do quite as well because he wasted time at the start, climbing after my T18B bomber. When he was less than 2 miles from me, I dived like you can only do in Arcade: vertically! He broke off after losing a couple of thousand feet. I went on at ground level to destroy all four bases single handed (following a nicely sneaky route!).

 

Once again, the message is simple: get out of spawn campers’ sights by diving like mad. But, whilst admiring on replay the P47D’s skill in particular, I still wonder what kind of satisfaction you get by such dedicated seal clubbing.

 

I believe there are a few famous squads out there that require a player to have a certain K/D ratio in fighters to prove their worth for entry.
And being an accepted member of one of these squads is seen as a major badge of honour by some players.
And so is one reason for spawn camping for stat padding... only a small part.
Not that this is the squad's fault. They want the best players... and players that cant cut the grade under normal circumstances.... spawn camp.
Being of a high level and flying an overpowered fighter like a P47 is very common. Down tier a P47 to 3.0 and enter a match with most planes between 2.0-3.0
A plane that can happily sit at 4.3 fighting 2.0 aircraft... and piloted by someone with experience. 
Happens much more than actuall spawn camping. Put the two together... and yeah... match ruined.
I was once in a match with two such players on my team... both ended up with 20 odd kills each... literally wiped out the other team.  
 

Edited April 5, 2020 by IdiotInA

[Lexing_ 241]

7 hours ago, IdiotInA said:

One thing Ive noted about proper spawn campers... they use one plane and leave the battle when they die. 
The frustrations of stat padding I guess 

It's actually much more complex than you would think.

Personally, I nowadays leave after one death because most, if not all the time, the match is just about as good as over when I do get shot down. Therefore, if I respawn, most of the time I won't be able to even get another kill before the match ends. So my reasoning is this; why cut my kills per spawn by half by respawning when I won't be able to get more rp or silver for it anyway?

[IdiotInA 1,139]

5 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

It's actually much more complex than you would think.

Personally, I nowadays leave after one death because most, if not all the time, the match is just about as good as over when I do get shot down. Therefore, if I respawn, most of the time I won't be able to even get another kill before the match ends. So my reasoning is this; why cut my kills per spawn by half by respawning when I won't be able to get more rp or silver for it anyway?

Not really that 'more complex' because as you admit... you're concerned about your 'kills per spawn'
What concerns you more? Having your K/S reduced by half? Or not having time to reap SL and RP?
As a matter of interest... apart from personal pride... what does a high 'kills per spawn' benefit you with?
Does your squad require a certain K/S ratio to be a member? 
Is having a high K/S seen as a badge of honour in your squad? 
Is your squad a fighter squadron? By which I mean it doesnt have members who primarily fly bombers because it's not interested in including such players?

Not that there's anything wrong with any of that. 
They are simply valid reasons why a player may play in a certain way. 
Being in a squad with a ranking table... a sense of pride for being in top 10 etc... are perfectly valid reasons to play in a way that gives you the highest K/S possible.
But it also explains why some players will spawn camp... down tier already under tiered aircraft... and quit the match when they are killed.

Edited April 6, 2020 by IdiotInA

[Maj_Fox@psn 522]

I like to climb and contest altitude and if I survive I sometimes find myself over the red spawn, if that happens I'll fly back to the center of the map. However if someone climbs from spawn to challenge me then I'll fight back. If they dive to furball I'll let them go.

 

If there is a camper at my spawn I simply do not re-spawn. It's normally suicide to try to challange a camper and I have no intention of diving into the furball.

 

Cheers

[OXidE 15]

10 hours ago, *Maj_Fox said:

If there is a camper at my spawn I simply do not re-spawn. It's normally suicide to try to challange a camper and I have no intention of diving into the furball.

 

 

The idea of not bothering to respawn when facing spawn campers in an interesting comment that has popped up in the thread. It had never occurred to me tbh. 
 

There are two effective spawn camping responses being suggested either dive for your life or stay in the hanger. 

These are reasonable. 

 

Alternatively, there is something satisfying in working together to bait and lure spawn campers down to spawn level and taking them out. The cost of lives is usually enormous but it is highly gratifying to accomplish. If the enemy is locked on a team mate, and you know its trajectory, you may get in a critical shot or two to start chipping away at their air dominance.

[IdiotInA 1,139]

5 hours ago, OXidE said:

 

The idea of not bothering to respawn when facing spawn campers in an interesting comment that has popped up in the thread. It had never occurred to me tbh. 
 

There are two effective spawn camping responses being suggested either dive for your life or stay in the hanger. 

These are reasonable. 

 

Alternatively, there is something satisfying in working together to bait and lure spawn campers down to spawn level and taking them out. The cost of lives is usually enormous but it is highly gratifying to accomplish. If the enemy is locked on a team mate, and you know its trajectory, you may get in a critical shot or two to start chipping away at their air dominance.

One simple solution to this problem would be to have three spawn areas on each side. So a player wishing to spawn in can choose the area furthest from the player who is camping.
How to implement this in a very simplistic way that doesnt require much effort or time on the spawner would need to be worked out.
 

[_TasteTheRainbow 95]

42 minutes ago, IdiotInA said:

One simple solution to this problem would be to have three spawn areas on each side. So a player wishing to spawn in can choose the area furthest from the player who is camping.
How to implement this in a very simplistic way that doesnt require much effort or time on the spawner would need to be worked out.
 

 

This would likely play into the camper's hands more than anything. Here's why...

 

Excluding cases where there are multiple campers working together, in most matches, the majority of a solo campers kills come from picking off fighters and attackers that are nosing up at... let's be kind and say "ambitious angles". A solo camper generally won't take the risk of diving directly into fighter spawn, as it is way too easy to get jumped by either multiple spawning fighters, or an attacker spawning above you. It's often a much safer approach to get the buffet carousel rolling, as I put it, where you pick off a bomber or a slow attacker, and then wait for them to respawn in a fighter and climb for you. Then, like lemmings, their team mates will often join in one by one, and before you know it, you have a steady diet of stalled planes that are trying to exact frothing revenge on you from a very disadvantageous position, and you can just pick them off at will, snacking on the occasional bombers that spawn while you wait for the smouldering wreckages of fighters to respawn.

 

In very rare cases, the carousel just won't get started, and no matter how much pretty pink smoke I run, very few players are interested in climbing for me, or they return to the hangar after one death. These are not fun matches to camp, as it generally forces me to take more risks, such as diving on spawn or leaving spawn altogether to focus on other targets, just in the hope of getting a reasonable kill tally by the end of the match.

 

So in short, the primary determining factor in how many kills a camper gets per match is the general behavior of the enemy team - whether they take the bait, or whether they don't.

 

Having multiple spawns would embolden the camped team to climb more, not less. And given that spawn points practically couldn't be located very far apart, the only difference I would expect to see as a camper is 2-3 smaller streams of stalled planes pointing up towards me, rather than one large one. This is safer for the camper, as I can just deal with one queue at a time, knowing that I have a bunch of other planes at a non-threatening distance on "stall-waiting", as I call it, trying to climb in low energy states, just waiting to be picked off.

 

Changing the in-game mechanics wouldn't fix this flaw in player behavior. Even with one spawn, players can avoid the spawn camper and side-climb to altitude to challenge them if they wish, but very few do. So why would this change with 3 spawns? It simply wouldn't - it would just cause even more players to climb, in the illusory belief that they have a better chance of catching the camper off-guard, which due to the energy state and the general situational awareness of most campers, is very unlikely.

Edited April 7, 2020 by RyotNZ