Spawn Campers: And You're to Blame

[anyuser 5,136]

Just want to add, tanks and ships got more then one spawnpoint.

Not only the tears about "spawncamping" form a bigger river when looking at the tanks, the even better point is, that the majority simply uses the random option, giving a **** about the red dots raiding one of the spawns.

[R-73Enjoyer 116]

Well, it looks like air objectives are getting a complete overhaul. With the new update, instead of the ticket counter, we'll have "victory points". Basically, killing aircraft, ground targets and bases will all contribute to victory. Airfiels will also not be destructible. Maybe spawncamping will be a valid tactic to win games now.

[Lexing_ 241]

1 hour ago, willcliff said:

Well, it looks like air objectives are getting a complete overhaul. With the new update, instead of the ticket counter, we'll have "victory points". Basically, killing aircraft, ground targets and bases will all contribute to victory. Airfiels will also not be destructible. Maybe spawncamping will be a valid tactic to win games now.

This is actually really exciting, I hope they continue to update the objectives, maybe Air AB will be revived again and become what it used to be.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

7 hours ago, willcliff said:

Well, it looks like air objectives are getting a complete overhaul. With the new update, instead of the ticket counter, we'll have "victory points". Basically, killing aircraft, ground targets and bases will all contribute to victory. Airfiels will also not be destructible. Maybe spawncamping will be a valid tactic to win games now.

 

I think tickets are still there, "Victory Points" is how big a bonus your team gets for winning, as in the "base has been destroyed, we have lost victory points"  messages.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

"As for spawn campers being emotional and aggressive, I do find that quite funny. I have hundreds of screenshots of rage messages, ranging from the usual low-brow name-calling all the way up to death threats - many from people that I played with back when I was a ground-pounder  Conversely, I haven't met a single rager in the spawn camping community - in fact, they are overwhelmingly very kind people. So I am afraid that assertion just doesn't stand up to my own experience."

 

I'll just leave this here:

 

 

He'll get it, as in Pot Kettle Black

 

The only other people I've seen who screenshot their hate mail are trolls on political message boards, I guess to get an ego/justification fix.  Look at all those crazy people just hating, etc.  The more they make people mad the more it must egg them on to do their thing, not thinking the problem is they're making the hate, not some valiant hero defending themselves. And obviously the only two groups of people I've gotten into it with on War Thunder have been team killers and these kind, gentle, great guy spawncampers.

 

Playing psychologist (I got my degree out of the same Cracker Jack box as everyone else), I've seen this behavior in other games and in real life sports and jobs.  it seems to be a guy thing that a certain group of men feel they need an edge/cheat/hack to guarantee they win, and then believe they're playing honest and do anything they can to justify it.

 

This rolls back to the problem that it's a game, not some validation of who you are.  Us regular players get annoyed a group of people want to turn it to the same monolithic gameplay over and over.  It's like your thing is car racing and whether destruction derby, dirt track or stock car, they show up and say "It's drag racing" every time.

 

So we try to start the game but as soon as they can get to the spawn it's dive away and try to avoid getting pounced, then try to gain your altitude back before joining the actual fight, putting us at a disadvantage over and over.  The camper gloats, "See, I'm helping my team"...but he's only playing for himself.  And as for the tired "Y'all whiners need to learn to team up," the teams in AB function more like sides.  Most players don't know each other and aren't interacting.  

 

Here's two more fun ideas to deal with campers, neither of which I expect would be implemented:

 

They camp in spawn they suddenly have no team for the rest of the game.  It's Free For All on them by any player.

 

Or

 

They suddenly are on the Blue Team, with points off for doing a team kill. They try the other side, they're back on Red.  

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by sfpeter68
Straightened out the post

[Renamed248537853 582]

19 hours ago, RyotNZ said:

Excusing verbal abuse (which is actually against ToS, unlike spawn camping) by blaming the target of it for the rager's actions is a pretty morally repugnant position to hold. Would you universalize this position of yours to real life scenarios?

 

Whoa, wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you seriously suggesting that I am condoning harassment? Where exactly did I do this?

My point was that I considered you intelligent enough to realise that if you do something in-game of which you know enrages people, you would not at all have been surprised at getting rage messages. This is something entirely different from condoning it.

Now, I will be the first to admit that sometimes I don't really get a point across because English isn't my first language. But then again, I would have appreciated it if you at least had given me the benefit of the doubt and had asked for clarification before making these accusations.

And by the way; I clearly stated that I too have been the victim of harassment, threats of physical and sexual violence included, coming from spawncampers. Should I blame myself for that too, then?  Would it be possible for you to at least accept the possibility that some of these 'overwhelmingly kind people' are capable of doing this? Because I have been on the receiving end of this. Multiple times...

 

19 hours ago, RyotNZ said:

You are right - this is the point where I will be disengaging from the discussion with you. My intention in this thread was to provide an insight into the issue from the often under-represented position of a spawn camper, not to rebut personal insinuations and debunk false conjecture. Your mind is quite clearly made up, and since you will not engage in a way that is mutually respectful and constructive, engaging with you further would be pointless.

 

Which is perfectly fine for me.

I am sorry that you took criticism on your position personally. Because, if you re-read my comments, you will see that nowhere I have attacked you personally and have always stuck to the point. I do have to say though that it is a bit ironic that you talk about respect at the end of a comment that's full of quite personal attacks, but anyway...

 

I'm perfectly fine leaving it at this, although I would really hope that you at least are willing to rectify your earlier hint at me condoning harassment. Misunderstandings can happen and I will hold nothing against anyone who can acknowledge that probably misread or misunderstood something. I'm not asking for an apology or anything...

Also, it would be really appreciated if you can at least acknowledge the fact that harassment can and does come from both sides in this matter as both you AND me have been on the receiving end of it.

 

Take care, and have a nice day!

 

18 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Realistically the spawns can't be more than 3-4 kilometers apart, which means that some very energy-intensive planes such as P-47Ds can be used to BnZ through all three spawns at once, which brings up the question, why would you need multiple spawns in the first place when it just gives the spawn campers more chances to kill more planes.

 

To avoid getting exponentially longer posts, I'll single this sentence out to ask some questions which lie at the basis of the 'problem', as I see it.

The P-47 could BnZ through the spawns at once. True, in theory. But my question would be: why in the spawn? This can just as well be done anywhere on the map - even I have BnZ'd through a furball and gotten 2 or 3 kills in quick succession.

I often see the same things being said, like the importance of energy retention, spawncampers being among the best players,....which I can all very much agree with. But what do these have to do with the spawn.

I mean, you can use energy retention and altitude to your advantage anywhere on the map. Good players can get kills anywhere on the map. Yet spawncampers somehow need the spawn for it. So I ask, and this is a serious question: why?

 

Another thing I would like to address is the 'being shot down isn't fun whether it is in the spawn or anywhere else'. I beg to differ though. Would it be possible for you to accept that for most of the players it makes a difference whether they are being shot right after spawning or during dogfighting in the furball? These things just aren't the same.

I always climb for altitude and try to control the center of the map, where I dive down on unsuspecting planes and over-ambitious fighters prophanging while trying to get to me. The most satisfying moments are when I see a fighter come from me and I can energy-trap them. Yet I never receive hatred for this while in fact I'm doing exactly the same a spawncamper does. Why would this be?

Could it be that the concept of people getting shot down while dogfighting and still have fun is somehow alien to spawncampers?

 

This ties in with you wanting to see respawns removed. But why would they need to be removed to solve the problem? After all, if the spawncamper doesn't choose to make a bee-line for the spawn, there isn't a problem either. You have a choice, too.

 

18 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Again, choosing who you play with is only going to limit your view as a player. I would advise to look at spawncampers and see how they play in order to counter them. Only by studying your opponent will you succeed in defeating them. Knowledge is power.

 

One doesn't exclude the other. Just because you don't want to play with spawncampers doesn't mean you have a limited view. I think there are plenty of good players out there from who a lot can be learned and that do not spawncamp.

There's nothing wrong with being selective in who you want to play with. If you realise that certain players using certain play styles ruin the fun of the game for you, it seems to me that deciding not to play with these individuals is a very mature and reasonable thing to do.

In fact, the most efficient way of countering a spawncamper is simply not spawning at all....I think even you cannot deny the logic of that.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Renamed248537853

[Stahlvormund101 12,039]

Spawncampers being very kind people? The kind of kindness a 300 movie's Xerxes will show, an example of smugness, elitism and utter self-righteousness.

Maybe there is indeed an honor among thieves, among dishonorable people of the same kind to treat each other as colleagues with kindness, but those on the receiving end virtually only ever see the ugly side of them.

[Touched_Grass 758]

8 hours ago, sfpeter68 said:

This rolls back to the problem that it's a game, not some validation of who you are.

Ah yes, that's why I see the same 4-5 players, including you, endlessly writing paragraphs thinking something will change. Keep it up, I'm sure Gaijin will listen... one day  In the meantime, I'll enjoy your respawns.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

32 minutes ago, Renamed248537853 said:

Whoa, wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you seriously suggesting that I am condoning harassment? Where exactly did I do this?

My point was that I considered you intelligent enough to realise that if you do something in-game of which you know enrages people, you would not at all have been surprised at getting rage messages. This is something entirely different from condoning it.

 

I think this thread has also worn past being productive, but no, you haven't been condoning harassment.  If the guy is collecting screenshots he's like those "pro" bicyclists who fit cameras on their bikes and post Youtube videos of all the flack they get from motorists.  How many of us every day get into shouting matches on the road like these bicyclists, or have people on WT sending us hate mail?  Indeed, the chat on WT is so quiet I usually don't get replies when I congratulate a winning enemy with something like, "Dang, that was a good game!"  

 

But this charmer:

 

"Excusing verbal abuse (which is actually against ToS, unlike spawn camping) by blaming the target of it for the rager's actions is a pretty morally repugnant position to hold."

 

Simply put, it's a victim complex.  He denies he's getting a big tactical edge with spawncamping, and doesn't think people should get mad about it.  But they do get mad about it.  His hundreds of screenshots won't stop someone from sending him a complaint in the future, unconnected to any of us or this thread.  If people are hating on him all the time, then maybe he is part of the problem.

 

The end solution is what I mentioned before, disconnect and blacklist/ignore.  And before someone says "what are you doing still messaging them on this thread?" you might notice I'm not, I'm only seeing replies other people make to them.

 

And lastly it goes back to what I posted earlier.  It's a game.  For Most of us if the spawncamping gets bad enough we will just quit because it's stopped being enjoyable, while it seems these guys would blame us for not standing there and being their targets.

[anyuser 5,136]

Somebody does clearly use verbal abuse currently.

Its you and only you.

Its more like you want to play the victim, while most people die to somebody above the spawn do fail to his energytrap several times in one single match (and again in the next one).

 

If you loose plane after plane to somebody above the spawn (does not need to be a spawncamper. Bomber escort will lead you there because the airfield is usually very close to the spawn...) because of rageclimbing to get a revengekill and then you get mad about it.

You are the one to blame.

 

I can't even remember when I was killed the last time by somebody being above the spawn.

Might be because I do check what is above me and because I dive and take evasive action if needed. Usually nobody will follow then and if they do they are idiots - or better said dead idiots.

Have to admit I don't respawn that often because I try to not waste my respawns.

 

 

[Kosher_Locust 120]

5 hours ago, ____B00K3NDS____ said:

Ah yes, that's why I see the same 4-5 players, including you, endlessly writing paragraphs thinking something will change. Keep it up, I'm sure Gaijin will listen... one day  In the meantime, I'll enjoy your respawns.

 

And the same 4-5 spawncampers who can't get enough of a fix in the game coming on these forums to gloat.  And no, you won't enjoy my respawns , but like I said, just click to "ignore" and...

Edited May 17, 2020 by sfpeter68

[anyuser 5,136]

6 minutes ago, sfpeter68 said:

 

....And the same 4-5 spawncampers who can't get enough of a fix in the game coming on these forums to gloat, but like I said, just click to "ignore" and...

I hope you think I am one of those because it would show how blind of rage you are.

 

Last planes upgraded (oldest to first

All 3 Tu2

Do217M/K

Ju188

Me 262 U4, He162, Ar 234B2 (don't know who was ready first)

Both A-26

 

Comming Up: Yak3U

 

But hey, I was told, that my 6:1 K/D with the Boomerang MK2 (was at 10:1 for some time) has to come from spawncamping.

That person has never flown a Boomie  

Edited May 17, 2020 by anyuser

[Kosher_Locust 120]

On 17/05/2020 at 13:13, anyuser said:

But hey, I was told, that my 6:1 K/D with the Boomerang MK2 (was at 10:1 for some time) has to come from spawncamping.

That person has never flown a Boomie

 

A high K/D isn't the problem, it's just pouncing on people soon as they spawn--and several of the campers in these threads I was in games with them so it wasn't assuming. 

 

Out in the field anything goes, and I've had my rear handed to me plenty of times.  Good aim and picking fights is one way to win and with 4 guns and 2 cannon a Boomie is well armed.   In the lower tiers  the P-43, H81-A2, and F6F have done me well.   Lately I've gotten better with the He-162 but my experiment in cripping a plane and leaving so he eventually dies and I get out without getting dinged up didn't work too well as they managed to keep on flying.  The last plane I've been learning is the Do 335 B-2, the premium one.  The ranked one is lightly armed, this is like a tank and handles like one, but should be good for dispatching bombers and fighters who insist on head-ons, and drop bombs in a pinch.

 

My K/D is never very high because honestly I get bored and zing for the furball, success is how many bad guys I can zap in a row before dying; a good game is around four.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by sfpeter68

[Lexing_ 241]

On 18/05/2020 at 15:53, sfpeter68 said:

 

A high K/D isn't the problem, it's just pouncing on people soon as they spawn--and several of the campers in these threads I was in games with them so it wasn't assuming. 

 

Out in the field anything goes, and I've had my rear handed to me plenty of times.  Good aim and picking fights is one way to win and with 4 guns and 2 cannon a Boomie is well armed.   In the lower tiers  the P-43, H81-A2, and F6F have done me well.   Lately I've gotten better with the He-162 but my experiment in cripping a plane and leaving so he eventually dies and I get out without getting dinged up didn't work too well as they managed to keep on flying.  The last plane I've been learning is the Do 335 B-2, the premium one.  The ranked one is lightly armed, this is like a tank and handles like one, but should be good for dispatching bombers and fighters who insist on head-ons, and drop bombs in a pinch.

 

My K/D is never very high because honestly I get bored and zing for the furball, success is how many bad guys I can zap in a row before dying; a good game is around four.  

Pouncing on people as soon as they spawn is only justified because if you don't, you let people who can potentially affect the outcome of the match escape, which means you're essentially throwing if you don't attack them. K/D isn't really important to me, just that I choose a way to have fun in this game that coincidentally caters to my K/D ratio.

[OXidE 15]

On 16/05/2020 at 21:12, willcliff said:

Well, it looks like air objectives are getting a complete overhaul. With the new update, instead of the ticket counter, we'll have "victory points". Basically, killing aircraft, ground targets and bases will all contribute to victory. Airfiels will also not be destructible. Maybe spawncamping will be a valid tactic to win games now.

 

Thank for sharing this willcliff Air objectives getting an overhaul has many players showing renewed interest in aviation with the promise of a better game and the "victory points" overhaul.

How do you see this encouraging spawn camping? 

[FlyingToaster 718]

One entertaining way I feel that would deal with spawncampers - increase the altitude of spawns if an enemy aircraft is near.

Say an enemy fighter is within 3km of the fighter spawn. All new fighters spawning there start with  an altitude equal to that of the enemy fighter + 1500m

So spawncamper comes along to get some easy kills, but instead becomes an easy kill for everyone spawning above him. The rest of his team also gets annoyed at him because he's given the enemy team a better spawn.

[Tanman49 24]

42 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

One entertaining way I feel that would deal with spawncampers - increase the altitude of spawns if an enemy aircraft is near.

Say an enemy fighter is within 3km of the fighter spawn. All new fighters spawning there start with  an altitude equal to that of the enemy fighter + 1500m

So spawncamper comes along to get some easy kills, but instead becomes an easy kill for everyone spawning above him. The rest of his team also gets annoyed at him because he's given the enemy team a better spawn.

That would negate the altitude advantage in general not just for spawn campers. There are reasons other than spawn camping to gain altitude (boom and zoom, bombing, etc.) and doing this would ruin those aspects of the game. This is because rather than having to spend the time climbing 4000 meters (losing speed all the way) which most players won't do they just start there, so they start a higher altitude and its not like one (especially one who climbed from 2000 meters) can climb much higher given the limited maximum altitude of planes and time required. One could argue that as long as no one spawn camps nothing bad happens, but sometimes people end up over the enemies spawn by accident or chance, and one little thing that happened by chance shouldn't derail an entire match. Also, there is not a widely understood exact definition for spawn camping. Is it coming down on people from above the spawn, is it killing people near the spawn, or is it killing people some amount of seconds after they spawn? If a player just needs to be near the spawn in order to constitute spawn camping then that severely limits their flexibility when moving around the map. For example, consider the bomber who is trying to bomb the base. There is a good chance he'll end up over the spawn. Is it fair then for enemy planes to spawn right on top of him? Or perhaps one team has genuinely beaten the other team back to their spawn.

 

Acknowledging the fact that nothing will ever be done, people should just learn to dive when a spawn camper is coming towards them, and they should learn to not get so overly emotional that they throw rational thought out the window and decide to engage a spawn camper without the speed or altitude advantage. Also, to be honest, I have not experienced many matches where there is spawn camping, and even if there is, the spawn campers aren't that good at it as they don't even get a lot of kills.

[FlyingToaster 718]

Of course it's not perfect, no solution really is. I prefer to play boom and zoom, so I'm well aware of altitude being used for things other than spawncamping.
The idea is that spawncamping (and you could tweak the definition to something workable, some combination of distance, time, altitude, kills - something fair and not easily worked around) becomes both pointless and makes the spawncamper very unpopular with their team. Partly I'd just love to see the face of some troll spawncamper getting in position for some cheap kills and having fighters spawn above him.

I deliberately specified fighters only to avoid your example with the bombers - bombers should be over there bombing bases.

I had one match today where a spawncamper got 18 kills (for 0 deaths) - but there was possibly hacking there also, since many people got good hits on him and no damage was observed.


Naturally no "fix" will get implemented, and people won't learn to dive away, so spawncampers will continue to get away with it when they choose to do so.

[R-73Enjoyer 116]

16 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

many people got good hits on him and no damage was observed.

aka they missed

[Daffan 6,158]

Imagine playing Arcade

[Stahlvormund101 12,039]

4 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

Imagine playing Arcade

Imagine coming to a thread only to let off a pointless, derogatory three-worder.

[Maj_Fox@psn 522]

As I have said before.

 

Spawn camping is a viable interdiction tactic for 2 reasons that meet player requirements.

1. Player gets rewards for kills.
2. Player helps team by disrupting flow of planes from spawn.

The problem is this tactic generates a bad game experience for the majority of players. That's the vibe I get from this and other threads.

 

IMO, in the interest of the bigger picture, the game would be better if some simple mechanic was put in place to counter spawn camping without blocking it completly.

1. Multi-spawn points.
2. Option to pick from 3 different spawn hights.
3. Protective spawn bubble that works similar to the one they used to use in tanks. Red plane has to leave in a short time scale or blow up. Any Red plane in this bubble shows up on the game map which can be viewed before a player spawns in.

 

As FlyingToaster said, "it's not perfect, no solution really is".

 

Cheers

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by *Maj_Fox
Gramma

[Stahlvormund101 12,039]

3 hours ago, *Maj_Fox said:

As FlyingToaster said, "it's not perfect, no solution really is".

 

Cheers

What negative consequences are coming from completely making spawncamping impossible? All that spawncamping achieves can be achieved by other means within the game.

[anyuser 5,136]

17 hours ago, FlyingToaster said:

One entertaining way I feel that would deal with spawncampers - increase the altitude of spawns if an enemy aircraft is near.

Say an enemy fighter is within 3km of the fighter spawn. All new fighters spawning there start with  an altitude equal to that of the enemy fighter + 1500m

So spawncamper comes along to get some easy kills, but instead becomes an easy kill for everyone spawning above him. The rest of his team also gets annoyed at him because he's given the enemy team a better spawn.

So, you want to make sure, that no bomber, that is bombing the airfield or the zones, can get any kind of protection.

Because if he does enemy fighters will spawn instandly right in his face. But when he won't get fighter cover enemy fighters can climb up for him unharmed.

 

Sounds perfect to me...

 

5 hours ago, *Maj_Fox said:

1. Multi-spawn points.
2. Option to pick from 3 different spawn hights.
3. Protective spawn bubble that works similar to the one they used to use in tanks. Red plane has to leave in a short time scale or blow up. Any Red plane in this bubble shows up on the game map which can be viewed before a player spawns in.

 

 

 

We have 1 for tanks.

Most tankers don't care, hit random and are more likely to cry rivers about spawncampers, than to use the other and uncamped spawnpoint.

 

We had 2 with the option to spawn at fighter alt, at the airfield (you can't spawn further away...) or at the altitude that is normal for you, if you use a bomber or attacker.

Very few used it, a part used it for trolling. Some were stupid enough to fail the start from the airfield in AB and it was the fault of everybody and his dog.

 

And 3, we partially got that. On the gamemap every plane that the crew of one of your teammates have spotted is as a red dot on the map. You can be sure, that "spawncampers" are always visible on the map as a red dot at the spawnpoint, when you choose your vehicle.

People still spawn their Wellington.

 

And  we don't talk about tanks. A plane is allways a fast moving vehicle, that has to move. Blowup zone would be the most stupid thing you could do.

 

All those won't do anything beause spawncamping is not an issue of the game design but of the players.

The players who don't use (I would say refuse to use) the informations and possibilities they could use in other modes against something similar, the informations and possibilities they have right now and the ones the once had.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by anyuser

[Renamed248537853 582]

45 minutes ago, anyuser said:

We have 1 for tanks.

Most tankers don't care, hit random and are more likely to cry rivers about spawncampers, than to use the other and uncamped spawnpoint.

 

 

Not everyone who plays Air plays Tanks, and simply removing the 'random' function would be a simple solution.

Also, like we have seen, campers say that adding extra spawnpoints would encourage spawncamping, so in other words, would benefit them.

So if campers think it benefits them and the camped think it benefits them...who could be against this change? Seems like we have finally reached agreement.